Anyone know a good bpa level to make this building work this age? It was a no brainier with sage last few ages but now, curious. Anyone do a little math on this yet?
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Anyone know a good bpa level to make this building work this age? It was a no brainier with sage last few ages but now, curious. Anyone do a little math on this yet?
I always thought the general rule for non sage was 1% libs for every 100 bpa you have but not worth it until you have at least 500bpa. That is old school math though.
I follow the thumb of 500 total BPA to even start to think about it, and after that then it depends on each science category and how you invested in them.
If you got junk investments then 0 libraries even if you have 500 total BPA.
Libs are mostly for wpa, since no other building mods wpa. The other bonuses are nice, but there are buildings for stuff science won't affect, like barracks and gs, and those buildings are pretty important for attackers. tg, forts, banks, and thief dens all do a lot more than libs in their area of specialization.
For thief-mage or superthief/mage libs are kind of a no-brainer.
There are other uses for libs, for instance if you tank godly or expect BE to tank, and libs are useful for pump once homes/banks max out.
1% for every 200 bpa but really only after you are 600 bpa or higher. And like noobium said if you have a high magic science it's better. Even undead benefits more than most non mystics because they have higher "important" sciences and their generally crap be that doesn't effect them is nice. Had heard about using 1% libs only if it replaces 1% of land equally but that is flawed as it boost your economy as a whole while providing higher mods. In the end use sparingly I say.
The math for what libraries give a province with a given sci level is easy enough to calculate. How those offerings compare to other buildings you could build is much harder to calculate. I assumed people had the brainpower to plug in their own science levels to know what libs are doing, my mistake.
So let's assume pretty decent science levels for mid-age, if you've been actually protecting your books and playing as a war kingdom...
alchemy - 121 bpa
tools - 256 bpa
housing - 256 bpa
food - 121 bpa
military - 256 bpa
crime - 256 bpa
channeling - 256 bpa
And let's assume your race is Avian, which is quite relevant (since you can and pretty much have to make use of your land differently from Orcs or Undead in order to play to your strengths)
11.25% libraries = +20% science effects, roughly
or,
+2.67% income
+2.76% building efficiency
+1.88% maximum population
+9.36% food production
+1.54% military efficiency
+9.8% thief effectiveness
+9.8% magic effectiveness and rune production
We would also assume your goal is to have as much wpa as you can expect to raise in a limited time, so the theoretical cap on rWPA would be something like 3-4. Something like that would be preferred if you're going libs. We would use the thief effect bonus to drop rTPA to what it would be with 2 raw and no libs, even though I wouldn't do that, and that space save would be put towards maxpop.
The income part is roughly equal to having 1.5% banks, though this isn't particularly relevant.
The building efficiency bonus is entirely dependent on your other buildings, it isn't a flat "+2% land". It does however add to the strength of buildings that would otherwise approach harsh DBE effects, if you cannot max out your BE.
The housing bonus is worth about 4.5% homes, aside from the BE effects. Homes are pretty crap for the capacity alone
Your base max population/acre (Lord rank) is around 28.5 pop/acre. Let's assume you increase this to 31 by building and filling 20% homes, requiring 7.75 bushels/acre to feed. Never mind that food is easy to aid, let's say your goal is self-sufficient food production. Your basic farm requirement would be 6%, dropped to 5.4% with the libs. So another 0.6% land saved.
The military efficiency bonuses are worth roughly 1.5% tg and forts each.
The extra tpa shaves off 0.17 rTPA, or about 1.5% homes worth of extra population.
Presuming you would build 10% towers at war start (and I wouldn't really want to do that), the extra channeling science is worth another 1% land in towers.
The BE effects on all of these would add another 0.5% land or so with these buildings being given. The BE effects on your other buildings might be worth about 3% land otherwise.
The libraries also affect forward income and rune production, which isn't entirely irrelevant... tho you could build libs mid-war, you will get those effects earlier with libs already in place. They're far inferior to having banks/towers in the first place.
Taken together, these bonuses accumulate to being worth 14-15% land in equivalent buildings - so about a break-even, not counting the wpa effect. As you can see, most of the extra land is in added maxpop, replacing one of the weaker buildings (homes), and in the presumed benefit of added building efficiency. If you take out the maxpop effects, the land save is less than the land put into your prov.. and maxpop is somewhat overrated. Then you're left with a mix of buildings which aren't directly linked to your success as an attacker, and a couple % of tg/forts. Whether those buildings are worth it is your call.
The biggest effect by far is the 10% increase to mWPA, which can make the difference between landing fb or, even better, LL; and the snowball effect that has is really substantial.
19.2% T/M in your example of BPA but 1522 total BPA is a little too high, the effects of Libraries are quite apparent at these levels.
Decent to have, good to build when chained, efficient at high BPA levels.
The point is that the equivalents for an attacker aren't all that great, even at 1500 bpa. It works better if you're prioritizing tpa/wpa, attacker or defensive, and willing to let other building types slide in the short term. Say you went with 4 tpa and 3 wpa on your hypothetical avian and you got those thieves for a reason, the effective free pop from that is like 6.2% free homes (3.5% if you just count the TPA), on top of the free homes from better popsci and the ME/income boosts.
The libs do a little better if your BE is tanked, which can happen. 70% BE is not fun. :(
It's still mostly for the wpa boost, but the extra bonuses can make them worthwhile.
If you're a t/m with 10+ combined tpa/wpa and a high priority on housing/crime/channeling, the libs work a lot better. Put the same BPA into 400 housing, 400 crime/channel, and 81 everything else and you get...
+2.24% income
+1.65% BE (who cares)
+2.3% maxpop
+8.37% food production (who cares)
+0.9% military efficiency (a grand total of 0.5% forts, whee, who cares)
+10.9% crime/channeling effect
build (mystic)
20% homes
5% farms
5% banks
10% guilds
20% towers
10% forts
11.25% libs
18.75% thief dens
5 tpa, 5 wpa, countess honor
rest defense/pezzies, blah blah blah. You get 32.77 maxpop/acre. Tweak the buildings if you like, they're mostly irrelevant but showing where the libs fit in.
The extra sci nets
more money (who cares)
more BE (who cares)
roughly 6% free homes from housing sci
more food (who cares)
more military efficiency (worth a whole 0.6% free forts, who cares)
Approx 0.55 effective free TPA (equal to effectively 11.36% free homes)
Approx 0.55 effective free WPA (ditto, though free wpa is harder to gauge in this regard)
Approx 2.3% free towers
Ignoring the WPA equivalency to homes (which is a lot to ignore), you're getting about 22-23% free buildings from the libs, almost all of them homes. With the wpa considered a capacity bonus this is around 35% More importantly though, you're getting stuff that fits into your role perfectly, you have a lot of free space and a lot more stability. It's not like you're trading off for barracks or gs, usually. You could probably omit banks from this and do fine, or trade towers for more homes if you have a way to get runes long-term.
I would say that for a t/m, libs start being useful a lot earlier than is often assumed, and total BPA is a poor metric. For attackers, they compete with a lot of other stuff you'd want, and your land, wpa, and science are not stable in war. The chief contributor to their effectiveness is high channeling, and to a lesser extent crime, paired with high raw wpa/tpa and more towers. Housing is fairly useful.
Again, this hinges on just how important pop capacity is to your province. For a t/m whose land is limited, it's a pretty big deal, for attackers that exchange acres rapidly it's far less of a deal.
A small but noticeable effect of libs is that the extra population isn't adding nw, or adding wages / train cost, unlike filled homes. Aside from the direct housing boost, it's not adding peasant income either.
For a straight up attacker (with high sci) libs are also fairly good. While OME (and DME) isn't that hard to come by at first, once you are past 20% TGs it is almost impossible to find another 10% OME in them.
While OME has drawbacks (dragon slaying, ambush, ambush defense, maybe others), it does simply increase your power with no (direct) increase in NW. So if you are a "breaker" role late age, TGs, homes, and Libs are your keys.
The old approximation (based on *simulation*) was 1% libs per 100 bpa *for human* (which had sage +25 or +30% at the time), and so the "correct" adjustment for no science bonus would be +1% per 169 bpa. (At the time I ran very low DR which overstated science's impact... but ME sci is very powerful, so it got *more* accurate over time)
I would argue a core attacker should treat that as 200 bpa per %, while a T/M, breaker, A/e or hybrid should think more like 150 bpa per %. (It matters more when your sci is stretched out across more categories)
Pure mage probably goes to 100 bpa per % (especially this age) because, as noobium pointed out, WPA mods are rare.
Part of the reason there is relatively little math is because of the way libs work: the improve most things at once. Thus, accurately measuring their benefit requires simulating basically the whole province. (And is therefore sensitive to how you set your province up.) To really get into it we'd need someone to put a spreadsheet simulator up onto google drive (or something) to lets us all collectively poke the assumptions.
Decided to go 5% Libs @ 256 BPA Housing and 121 BPA Channeling; Will increase to 10% @ 256 Housing and 256 Channeling.
Last time I ran these numbers in a sim, which I think was Age 65, mid to high library builds were inferior all the way up through something like 800 BPA, which the exception, obviously, of WPA.
Difficult to make a broad assumption like that considering other variables play into the calculation such as libraries not being affected by BE. If you draft deeply / homespump through a long hostile where your BE starts to tank hard, the benefits from libraries outweigh other buildings that are subsequently affected by BE dropping.
It ultimately depends partly on what your overall BPA is, but also on where your province is within the kd, your role, and how your province is to be used.
You can make fair assumption though: Libraries is one of the most over-used buildings in the game. Not that its not a good building. It is. At times. But due to the fact that it's quite situational and almost only merited (perhaps save from on well pumped TMs) on basis of the kd meta game.
Hi Guys interesting read and discussion!. i came back To utopia last age, been of For 12 years or so i think i played age 10-15 maybe more :P so atm we are like 10 IRL friends playing this game and we are always arguing about what is a good warbuild, last war i dropped banks entirely to have libs instead
i ran like
8%homes,
7% farms
25% towers
10% uilds
20% tds
15% forts
15% libs
Per Acre Effect
Alchemy 148,259 87.16 +13.1% Income
Tools 186,239 109.488 +10.5% Building Effectiveness
Housing 176,193 103.582 +6.7% Population Limits
Food 87,869 51.657 +57.8% Food Production
Military 118,023 69.384 +4.4% Military Efficiency
Crime 176,820 103.951 +107.7% Thievery Effectiveness
Channeling 146,491 86.121 +56.0% Magic Effectiveness & Rune Production
i know it's not high in any means, cause we are like only getting sci due to warwins currently 4/6 WW
im running close to 4wpa cause i got rekt one war getting better at that part
around 6rtpa
faery Rogue currently Marquis
What would i Cut/change from my current build for my next`? do i get anything out of those libs o shall i like go more banks?
this is what i think is a Good build
Guilds 10%
towers 20%
farms 6%
TD 20%
forts 15%
libs 12%
homes 17%
any thoughts?
Scrap the libs mate. I'm currently f/mys, sitting on about 1300bpa, and I am using 7% libs max. In war I suggest you run something like:
20% homes
8% farms
20% forts
20% td
12% guilds
20% towers
Or something along those lines. Banks are overrated. Homes are way better for BE, which means they are way better for rogue (double BE on tds)
Libs are not for attackers, attackers need raw military. raw military sustains much better than land bonuses. When you get hit and take in land your libs disappear, but if you started with higher raw military you will usually end a land exchange with higher raw military.
If your an attacker dont run libs.
Start to run a few libraries (like 5% when you're around 800 bpa, and you've sunk most of that into crime/magic). You need way more science dude, particularly this late into the age. Don't turn it off!
You need WAY more homes. Homes will give you high BE when you draft deep (also better than running high forts and low homes/low draft for defense..) for war. High BE will help your TD's keep you at -95% losses.
Something like this...
7% farms
35% homes
13% forts
20% TD
10% guilds
10% towers
5% libs (increase this as your BPA goes up)
You need to stack runes before war, with this low % towers, but this way, you'll be able to sustain your thieves far better.
If you're a sage you need to use them. If not than it is not as important. Libraries only make sage's powers even better.
Sage doesn't have a sci bonus ._.
http://i.imgur.com/9UH2Lhv.gifQuote:
If you're a sage you need to use them. If not than it is not as important. Libraries only make sage's powers even better.
I didn't say that. Now did I. Sages make a lot more science than the rest by whole lot more. It is crazy how much science sages bring in. If you're planning to invest in science heavily then you need libraries. You wouldn't want to play a heavy science province if you were not a sage. That is just asking to get all your science taken. If I see a non-sage province with +10kbpa or even in the high 100s I'm going to take that from them and I'm going to keep taking it until it is no more. They could have my land. Science takes time to regain while land is easily regained.
Merchants outpace sage in science except when they're operating in a cf vacuum. Your point on sci protection is valid though if you're playing in a segment exposed to randoms.
Sage sucks.
@octobrev When it comes to learning science no one does it better than a sage. You put merchant and a sage of the same land size and have them learn at the fastest rate, the sage will always win. And not only that, a smart sage would be looking to attack a merchant with lots of science. Being a non-sage with lots of science is just asking to get learned until it is all gone. A smart sage would just learn that dumb merchant.
Aye, Last age it is their ability to sit in normal and pump science and hope to not get noticed by learn hitters being attacking leaves you open for learn hitters.
This age Sages needs to be pro-active and do learn hits so one does not need to do traditional science pump or it is less important to do it. But it is good if you know how to pump science given the chance.
But generally the sage does NOT have the highest books in their NW range yet alone their kingdom (and I am not talking about BPA). So Noobium's comment about sages generally is correct. ie your a waste of space.
Eh no, if you have good science you better run lib being your Def/Off is going to go up when attacked and your TPA/WPA too. Plus your econ wont be in the negatives that easy either if chained, hell your def will usually go up too even with BG and PF hits.
But the main problem is attackers usually don't even try to get enough science to make it worth while to have Lib. That and land management when chained or just gaining land in general is also another skill an attacker has to learn.
Not denying that libraries are decent, and can be an ok building even for hitters. Use with care though. In many (most?) situations other utility buildings are stronger. Wars are dynamic, and static comparisons often come up short in the fluidity of acre swaps with constant over/under pop, and situations where raw numbers or caps (will the mod let me double or prevent doubling - or be superfluous, etc.) are more important than mods in the long run.
During chain libs can be quite nice, alleviating some over-pop. But on the flip side, once chained down - all other mods from libs are usually a waste. Econ is too tanked for the income+BE sci to make a difference. WPA and TPA raw figures and native sci boosts are usually high enough that the lib mods to sci would have little effect. Your off is higher than what you can utilise and ME sci won't matter. Acre swaps will have diminished your libs to near nothing, possibly making other buildings that would have prevented the quick swap (rax, hosps, gs or even wts that could have prevented some of that NS and lowered the number of incoming hits during chain). Etc.
Libs can give impressive mods, but the volatile and dynamic nature of war makes them better at more stable provinces (TMs, and turtlers) than low-def hitters. I've ran Sage hybrid cores. And even with such a setup I was quite conservative on the use of Libs...
I've actually never played sage so my experience is pretty limited but I actually prefer sage this age to last. I think objectively last age's sage was stronger, but I think this age's sage is a lot more accessible to the average player. Most KDs outside the top 10 or so struggle to properly sci pump, and with the ww bpa bonus sci pumps are (for the average KD) not really essential. Sage this age gives you sustained science all age, which really lets you rack up the bpa to levels that would be way out of reach of the average player last age. We have three sages this age and they're all sat on 2k bpa now, which is pretty cool and is something that we haven't achieved as a KD before this age. If you are active, making learn hits daily oow, plus active sci, plus sustained sage bonus, you can really get some significant bonuses. Nwpa is the biggest problem that I see with it...
Well it really depends on your sci levels, plus it works on both off and def in every type of category (def/off, thievery, magic, and even econ).
Ideally if your sci is high enough, so once you lose acres your defense goes up instead of going down preventing you from being chained or opped for that matter. Then have 1500 pez, and still have a positive income though you will be at 50% wages.
That and you can let the lib bleed off for a better building (you still have rax, hospitals, gc or even WT in the build too), but there isn't much to build for an attacker when chained (if your chained) other than try to keep afloat and prevent losses while retailing.
For me my building priority will be Libraries if I had high science, then farms/towers (if needed), then reduction of loss buildings, then everything else.
Pretty much libraries should be considered into the build IF you have decent science, I am not saying you have to build it, but to consider it as an option even if one is an attacker.
Yes. But you won't get OPed during or (near) post chain (or you face a crap kd).
For high off/low def provinces the ME boost to def rarely have much of an impact. Without having done the math (very easy math, but I'm also very lazy) I'd assume that increasing hospitals would sustain your def more than Libs at most BPA and BE levels and up to quite high amount of hosps.
Chain = tiny peon/acre = income mods are increasingly weakened.
1500 peons make 4125 gc/tick. Say your libs mod your income sci by 10%, that's 412 gc extra per tick. Not sure that should be included in the build considerations... and certainly not enough to make a big difference on being able to pay wages or not.
Yes. But you'll have less than if you didn't add libs to the mix as well :)
Building post chain can be crucial, but you can easily end up in an acre-swap situation where nothing is built at all. That I agree with. Which is why I'm not arguing what to build post chain, but what to build pre-chain - and many times Libs are not the answer.
Ethans old calcs put a 600 BPA guideline before libs became statically worthwhile. That was with sage bonus. Without racial/pers sci mods those numbers hit 1000 BPA. After that, they make sense statically. Not always dynamically.
So yes. After 1000 BPA you can start thinking about adding libs. But thats 1000 BPA pre-chain.
My advice is that even after 1000 BPA, libs should be built with a purpose and not be a go-to building. In 9 out of 10 cases (outside the very top) where I spot libs on core hitters in an enemy kingdom, I consider that an advantage for me, not them.
You also forget that you are also not building as much Banks, Forts, Thieves Dens, Homes, Towers, Training Grounds, Farms when you have Libraries.
But yea, it all depends on your science and how you invested them, if you went heavy into only a few category and forsake others then libraries is worthless even with 1000BPA. That being said attackers rarely have good science levels, yet alone a good science spread to warrant the usage of libraries to where it matters as a priority building.
That's why attackers should pay attention to science and take steps to improve their bpa... it's not too hard to attain 1000 bpa with some planning, though there are periodic setbacks like heavy learn attacks in war.
Putting libs on attackers is still dicey, mostly due to unstable defense... and of course, after a land chain, the mods to WPA aren't very useful.
Using libs oow as an economy building isn't too bad. Homes/banks are better for money, but libs' extra wpa is a useful asset in retalwars where your core FB can stall econ. It is unlikely that libs will be enough for heavy attackers to nado/LL at war start though, though it does mean less AW/massacre is needed to make that happen.
^This!
...not that I necessarily agree to building Libs oww anticipating retal-wars. Or to center a build towards core hitters being able to FB or LL or Nado. BUT, by all means, do build Libraries if they serve a purpose in the overall kingdom strategy. If you for instance think Orcs being able to throw a massive FB wave on the enemy core upon declaration, and if you think Libs can help you achieve that - that's a _good_ argument. The strategy might not be sound necessarily, but that's a valid argument to build Libs on a core hitter.
An invalid argument is: "my numbers look slightly better with than without Libs". Without contextualizing the usage of Libs, and without configuring how Libs play into a wider strategical setting - the bump of libs usually doesn't add up to a more effective core province than increasing utility elsewhere.
Aye to both Noobium and Tadpole.
One needs to understand the relationship of libraries when compared to the other buildings before attempting to use Libraries.
I myself keep excel spreadsheets with formulas which I play with to get an accurate sense of the exact numbers and I use it forecast things. Which goes down into detail of every building and how Tools and Housing and current peasant count in relationship of how it affects BE which in turn affects building production.
For everyone else it is worthless unless you understand how everything works which then you might as well build the excel sheet yourself.
So in general: follow your monarch's orders being if your asking about libraries then likely you don't have enough or know enough to go about deciding on your own build outside of the monarch's planned building spread. But do ask the monarch about it if you think you might benefit more to implement libraries.
I start using libraries the moment my pop science has reached 200 BPA. It usually translates to a 3-4% increase in total pop. If you use homes, it magnifies the bonus.
Anywhere from 10-15% libs usually.
If you neglect your science, and an alarming amount of Utopians do, by all means, stick to those utility buildings, you won't see the benefit of libs that a province like mine does.
You don't provide enough numbers, or your math is poor - or both. 200 BPA housing is in itself far from enough to warrant libraries, particularly in the 10-15% range, and especially on a core non-turtling hitter.
Also, homes pop bonus is additive, making homes equally good/bad irrespective of sci and libs.
Also #2, science being good is beside the point. This is not a discussion on the benefit of science, but on the benefit of libraries under various circumstances.
Also #3, 10% libraries @ 200 BPA = +1.6% pop. Compared to 10% homes = ~+1 PPA = 4% pop @ 0% pop sci (or +3.6% pop @ 9% pop sci, which is what your 200 BPA pop gives you) . Your math is bad. Homes are 2.25-2.5 times better than libraries for pop purposes than libraries are given your assumptions/numbers.
Also #4, homes is an overused building too ;)
Homes bonus multiplies with sci/honor... it doesn't multiply with Halfer, but that is a specific exemption. Basically the Halfer bonus is 25% free homes, aside from the birthrate effects.
Libs for pop sci isn't a good reason to build them in of itself. It takes some really high sci levels before they are equivalent to homes/banks, just for economic effects. Even then, they are taking from other buildings you might want.
Using libs as part of a heavy-econ strategy is perfectly fine though; if you've maxed out banks, it's homes or libs for extra money. In low draft situations, too many homes = unemployment, and libs are a way to boost your population/econ while keeping jobs.
As I wrote earlier in the thread - the equivalency for libs is mostly in the form of extra population or population-equivalents, and those effects are generally inferior to other buildings with the exception of wpa.
In war, for a province with weak defense, your libs can be shattered by the following things:
- Land chain and subsequent building loss / cycling. This wrecks any building strategy, but in post-chain rebuilding you'd almost never take libs
- Heavy massacre/raze. Your econ, tpa, and wpa mods get wasted, and your military mods are far too weak. While it takes a lot of massacre to really wreck wpa, attackers generally can't keep high wizards in the first place.
- Heavy Learn attack - obviously, if your books are all taken, your libs suddenly become deadweight, and it is very likely your defense is opened up. This can happen often after one of the first two, though wars are usually decided before this tactic is used.
Really though, for provinces with weak defense, building strats are overrated in general - more important is knowing what to build on incoming acres and how to handle damage to your province. There are generally useful builds for growth, but if you have to hostile/war with high homes it's not the end of the world, if you're something like orc or undead.
There are some things, like 10% gs, which don't stop a whole lot of anything outside of unusual circumstances (like fighting against a kingdom that can run chains to 1000+ nw/a)