Rage vs Psych Ward and bio too?

The actions of simians or rage in both cases are more or less irrelevant in these specific situations, its the actions of the accused that matter;

sanc saw the kd that noticed them with armies out on someone who was taking simians to war and they waved
bio saw the kd that noticed them with armies out on someone who was taking rage to war and the waved

(or made 7 hits - srsly you guys are still crying about 7 hits?)

from the positions of the monarchs of bio and sanc the situation was virtually identical, if you defend one while condemning the other you are a hypocrite, there is not much you can base your argument on.

a dragon? well I have been told numerous times that dragons weren't any sign of hostile, the first occassion was when I waved Dragons of Absalom and they started up MS coverage and started a dragon on us, after this Rage decided to wave us while armies still out and claimed that we weren't hostile or any such.

a hit? 1 unretalled hit? into fort? lol are we being serious right now? if these are the premises you base your argument then you have major congruity problems, it speaks of cognitive dissonance.

For the record, I condemn both the actions of sanctuary AND BiO and wouldn't have done what those kingdoms did in either circumstance, but you cannot defend one while condemning the other.

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Originally Posted by John Snowstorm

The actions of simians or rage in both cases are more or less irrelevant in these specific situations, its the actions of the accused that matter;

sanc saw the kd that noticed them with armies out on someone who was taking simians to war and they waved
bio saw the kd that noticed them with armies out on someone who was taking rage to war and the waved

(or made 7 hits - srsly you guys are still crying about 7 hits?)

from the positions of the monarchs of bio and sanc the situation was virtually identical, if you defend one while condemning the other you are a hypocrite, there is not much you can base your argument on.

a dragon? well I have been told numerous times that dragons weren't any sign of hostile, the first occassion was when I waved Dragons of Absalom and they started up MS coverage and started a dragon on us, after this Rage decided to wave us while armies still out and claimed that we weren't hostile or any such.

a hit? 1 unretalled hit? into fort? lol are we being serious right now? if these are the premises you base your argument then you have major congruity problems, it speaks of cognitive dissonance.

For the record, I condemn both the actions of sanctuary AND BiO and wouldn't have done what those kingdoms did in either circumstance, but you cannot defend one while condemning the other.

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If you're suggesting a bank hit is the same as a normal hit, then we certainly do have a cognitive dissonance :) Sanc started with a bank hit and a dragon, then continued hitting as soon as Simians left Fortified an hour later. Bio deliberately waited until Rage was engaged with Psych Ward to fight. If you can't see that there's a difference between those two, I don't know what to tell you.

an unretalled bank hit does not in any way make a hostile, if it does, can I be hostile all age by tagging ghetto banks? awesome.

either way both rage and simians were engaged with other kds, so the ethical implications of both waves were the same.

Rage is gonna blame BIO's 7 hits when they lose the war, wanna bet?

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Originally Posted by TheRock

Sanc started with a bank hit

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Getting free hit on cow is good enough reason for re-cf target kd, not for wave him after they send out to wave other kd. When Simians waved hoh was clear for all sides hoh wont give free wave and they will retal/declare war. When you know you wont get war, and you got free hit on cow, only honorable decision is to offer Siminas Cf deal/nap and if they refuse it you can wave because they want to keep open relation with 2 kds same time. What did Sanc was very wrong. For this now rage get same. Sure situation is not complete same but this dont matter in real. Sanc did what they did because they had power to make it, bio did what they did because they have power to make it. Back again to: dont play dirty and maybe you wont get dirty play in return :)

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Originally Posted by John Snowstorm

an unretalled bank hit does not in any way make a hostile, if it does, can I be hostile all age by tagging ghetto banks? awesome.

either way both rage and simians were engaged with other kds, so the ethical implications of both waves were the same.

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No, they are not. You might side with Simians anyway, but there's a clear distinction that either you're missing or purposefully ignoring.

Simians began getting hit by Sanctuary, then started a wave on someone else and said "We're hostile, you aren't allowed to hit us". Sanctuary responded by saying "No, we started our wave on you and we're going to continue". You might think that's still Sanc's fault, you're entitled to your opinion. Personally, I think that's not Sanc's fault.

Rage was unquestionably exchanging hits with Psych Ward before BIO hit.

Here's why the ethical implications are different...

Simians made a wave on another kingdom after Sanctuary had started to hit, but before hostile relations were achieved. The implication of this move is that kingdoms can decide to "lock" other kingdoms out by jumping into a hostile as a fight's beginning. I've seen kingdoms wave other kingdoms BEFORE a hostile started (I even did it myself - I waved Insolence 3 hours before my CF with Funshow expired, which was funny because Funshow accused us of using intel multis throughout the notice period even as we planned, from the start, to fight Insolence), but I've never seen it done, or approved, after the fighting has begun. Simians saw a hit from Sanctuary and then jumped out to wave HOH as fast as possible, to try and lock Sanctuary out. That's taking the use of the honor system between kingdoms to respect hostiles to a new level. That's not expecting a hostile you are already engaged in to get honored - that's creating a new hostile to lock out someone who had already begun initiating the fighting from the fight.

You might agree with Simians, and say they had a right to wave HOH as Sanctuary had not yet made a full hostile, but you likewise can't deny that Sanctuary began their fighting before Simians went after HOH. You can not credibly make any similar arguments in the case of Rage and Psych Ward with BIO. BIO was clearly the last kingdom in and was clearly hitting into an active hostile.

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No, we started our wave on you and we're going to continue

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sanc must be the only kd on the server bad enough to say that their wave takes over an hour between first and second hit.

that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

When sanc waved they were waving into a kd with armies out on another kd that was certainly going to retal and war, this is inexcusable no matter how you try to weasel it.

Both BiO and Sanc waved into active hostiles.

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Originally Posted by John Snowstorm

sanc must be the only kd on the server bad enough to say that their wave takes over an hour between first and second hit.

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Actually Cats is same level like Sanc (no offense cats:P). They are doing 4-5 hits for 4-5h so its average 1 hit per tic.

We are ghetto, see!

thats horrible waving.

Yeah but cats cater their race/pers and strategy to their abilities activity-wise.

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Originally Posted by John Snowstorm

sanc must be the only kd on the server bad enough to say that their wave takes over an hour between first and second hit.

that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

When sanc waved they were waving into a kd with armies out on another kd that was certainly going to retal and war, this is inexcusable no matter how you try to weasel it.

Both BiO and Sanc waved into active hostiles.

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It's funny that people still thinks 20person (or whatever number of hitters you have) wave in one hour is the only way to do a propper wave.

***edit***

Your right about adjusting race/pers for it though

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Originally Posted by John Snowstorm

sanc must be the only kd on the server bad enough to say that their wave takes over an hour between first and second hit.

that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

When sanc waved they were waving into a kd with armies out on another kd that was certainly going to retal and war, this is inexcusable no matter how you try to weasel it.

Both BiO and Sanc waved into active hostiles.

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If you'd like to discuss where a hostile begins and where hostile intentions begin, that's certainly subjective and I'm open to the idea that you disagree with me on it. That said, I'd think that a bank hit and a dragon sent would be clear hostile actions. If you disagree, I'm open to that idea. With that said, I don't think we disagree that it was clear that Sanctuary fully intended on waving Simians as soon as was reasonable (ie, out of Fortified), and I think it is reasonable to suggest that Simians waved HOH because they wanted to fight HOH and not Sanctuary, although Anri or someone else from Simians would have to confirm that. It's also not like Simians had all armies out, Sanc began hits with armies home, both at the point of the bank hit and at the point when Simians left Fortified. That's hardly "weaseling".

so I can do one hit from fort on mercy and they can't wave anyone? just finishing up my wave lol!

ok.

That is straight up dumb, and thats the situation you get yourself into when you have to defend your alliance mates no matter what they did.

We agree that sanc intended to wave simians, so what? Just because you want to wave someone doesn't give you the right to do it even if they are in active hostile, the fact is they waved into an active hostile, and their excuse boils down to "well we wanted to wave them so we still will I guess lolololol"

Just face it, they waved cause theyre greedy hoers and always have been and they were mad that they were forced to train up.

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Originally Posted by John Snowstorm

so I can do one hit from fort on mercy and they can't wave anyone? just finishing up my wave lol!

ok.

That is straight up dumb, and thats the situation you get yourself into when you have to defend your alliance mates no matter what they did.

We agree that sanc intended to wave simians, so what? Just because you want to wave someone doesn't give you the right to do it even if they are in active hostile, the fact is they waved into an active hostile, and their excuse boils down to "well we wanted to wave them so we still will I guess lolololol"

Just face it, they waved cause theyre greedy hoers and always have been and they were mad that they were forced to train up.

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You do a bank hit on my bank and send me a dragon and I'd be pretty certain you were fighting me. Why else would you do that stuff - for fun?

Just face it, Simians wanted to run away from Sanctuary and Sanctuary did not want to let them do that. I've just said the same thing you did, only from the other side :)