Debauchery...

Stop war after 24hours, max 4attacks/prov, switch to learn attacks, no black ops and max 1 dragon, allow the other kd to be up in acres. There is just so many things in this deal that smells fishy.

So you couldn't gain acres, and given the other kd had lower honor than you and you weren't allowed to op there was no honor to be gained either. The other kd was allowed to get back "where it started".
What was in this for the other kd I wonder? no acres, no honor and no chance of winning.


*show us the warsummary, would probably give a good clue of what happened

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Originally Posted by Alazne

More clear: my kingdom has always be defenseless in eowcf trusting others will respect their time to recover, and it has to be YOUR KINGDOM, the hero of war wins, that spoils that idea from them and steal millions. Nobody else had done it before. This is to make you see that not everybody plays dirty.

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It's not being dirty, it's being intelligent. The eowcf prot is meant to add a layer of protection to compensate for your loss of defences during a war. It is not meant to be a defence on it's own. It's meant to make what little defence you have left enough to protect you until you can rebuild yourself. It's like a bunker, if you like. An empty bunker will do you no good, but put 10 men in there and they'll defend as if they were 100. And no one would call it dirty if an army decided to attack where the bunkers are empty.
However, utopians have started to rely on this eowcf to protect themselves and they let their defenses down as long as possible, using it to pump as much cash as they can. The eowcf is not supposed to be a pumping period, it's supposed to be a rebuilding period. That's why science is blocked at active, and there is no Paradice allowed.

I once stole 4 mil from a guy who had stacked 11mil, on a single 100% stealth run. I had to send all 13k thieves I owned on each op to manage that. Do you know how much thieves you lose when you fail an op and you sent 13k? A lot! And yet, on that stealth run, I lost about 500 thieves. Guess how many times I failed... (considering that with the penalities for stealing out of my own war and into someone else's my 25mod TPA metled to about 1.5-2 mod TPA).This person later claimed they had not yet had time to recruit and train enough thieves. Someone that has a strong enough econ to generate 11mil by the time they can draft and train 2TPA (shouldn't take much more than 24-36 hours in eowcf) should not be concerned about losing 4mil. Which leads me to think that he was rather about to train and their eowcf was about to end, and he had just been sitting on an empty prov to pump as much cash as he could.

Now, show me any other "non-dirty" way I could use my thieves and stealth to get 4mil and I'll give up on robbing in eowcfs. Show me who is foolish enough to sit on 11mil gc when out of war. Right now, the way people regard the eowcf protection bonuses, this is simply the most efficient thing to do, until people start using the bonuses to rebuild, like they should.

But agreeing to war isn't the same as agreeing to make things beneficial for both sides.

If Debauchery was reset to 0/0 instead of 0/8, have the proper statistical adjustments (i.e. decrementing a loss) been made to all the kingdoms they warred?

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Originally Posted by Osaze

But agreeing to war isn't the same as agreeing to make things beneficial for both sides.

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Maybe not, but people use words carelessly sometimes, not imagining one word will suddenly be pulled out of a sentence and focussed on in minute detail. Our kingdom wanted to have some fun warring, but we are clearly not a war kingdom, we are totally unbalanced in sizes and the only KDs we might have warred without getting creamed were already in a war.

So from our perspective, for all I know, the term "beneficial" simply means we got to have some fun warring, but without the total killing of that fun that would come from a 7/7 war wins kingdom doing a proper number on us. I don't know, I wasn't involved in the politics, but I do know we were wanting to try having another war so that was our main "benefit". That the war win at the end of it all would go to Debauchery would never have been in question - they could have pummelled us harder to take the win if they had really wanted to. If the two monarchs made an agreement on it beforehand then that was naive at worst. As to what went on with acres and with strategy switches to chaining or doing learn attacks, I don't know, but that is a kingdom's choice. If it counts as fake then I guess people know that now and will have to be careful changing strategies during a war.

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Originally Posted by majigga

So we agreed on terms and after a 24-hour max gains marathon, we agreed to withdraw as soon after the minimum time as possible if they'd let us get back to where we started. At the end of the day, that's exactly where we ended up.

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Originally Posted by SillyRabbit

...They also indicated that they wanted to finish war 'up' in acres...
...We were about 63k acres and we were looking at a target that was 58k acres. So we started using in-war learns on their monarch, to limit our acre intake and also put pressure on him to surrender...

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"So we agreed on terms and after a 24-hour(????) max gains marathon, we agreed to withdraw as soon after the minimum time as possible if they'd let us get back to where we started. At the end of the day, that's exactly where we ended up."


Dont that explains the fake war itself...? You agreed to have a 24h war of max gain and withdraw min time if they (debauchery) LET you get back your acres.. (Pretty sure min-time war is much longer than 24h..what happens to the leftover time?).. and debauchery doing the learn hits which seems to do in accordance to the 'agreement'...? that above somehow feels like a confession..

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Originally Posted by SillyRabbit

Lastly, does everyone here agree that the punishment is just? I am fine losing my province, but having the record set to 0/0 is way over the top! If one war was deemed a 'fake-war', shouldn't our record be 7/8? This is just another indication that the moderators making these decisions have a strong bias against us.

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Dont think it is due to bias or at least not entirely. Seems logical decision, IF one is already deemed 'fake-war', well who knows if it is the same for previous wars. Rather than digging through 2months+ worth of ingame msg + actual war data to carefully decide each war of which is 'fake' which isn't, might as well be more thorough, No? Its more practical.

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Originally Posted by anti-fun

No offense Bishop can you tell us what rules we broke and so we and the whole utopian community knows what can/can not be done in this game with a link thank you...

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Clear statements indicating the rules of what can and cannot be done is pointless. People will just find loopholes in the statements and do something which may seem different but gets the same results.

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Originally Posted by THX1912

Now, show me any other "non-dirty" way I could use my thieves and stealth to get 4mil and I'll give up on robbing in eowcfs. Show me who is foolish enough to sit on 11mil gc when out of war. Right now, the way people regard the eowcf protection bonuses, this is simply the most efficient thing to do, until people start using the bonuses to rebuild, like they should....

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Im pretty sure you can find if you try.. Seen various examples, such as some KD's Bank practically have 0 tpa with low draft rate? lol...theres even peeps with 20-50mil or even more out of war? But thats IF you want to try to op them and get their retals.. so yes, there are plenty of "foolish" KD around? :) Pretty sure you wont want the same thing happen during your eowcf dont you? if stealing gc is fine for you, does that means hitting into your KD during your eowcf is fine as well, yes?

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Originally Posted by pmyraje

I should clarify, I'm not in Debauchery, but I am in the kingdom they warred which I can't be bothered to scroll up to remember how to spell! In general deletion of the monarch is a fairly just punishment for breaking clear rules. From my first hand knowledge of the war and its progress it doesn't massively surprise me that our war was interpreted that way. The definition of "fake" certainly surprises me, but I guess that has evolved over the years. Used to be a fake war meant no hits or carefully coordinated weak hits rather than lots of attacks, but with a change of war strategy half way through. Our monarch getting deleted is a shame for him and it was a blow to our kingdom, but it's end of age and he'll be back next age wise enough to hopefully avoid even going near the murky line of opinion as to what counts as a "fake war".

Agreeing terms beforehand is just generally bad and I'm not going to pretend I wasn't pee'd off when I arrived home from work to find we were suddenly in war with the kingdom we'd all agreed to definitely not war the previous time I was logged on, but the idea that the terms of the war were any different from those of a huge number of wars is conveniently naive. Whether their monarch promised ours we would gain acres or whether he made our monarch think that just so we'd agree to war or whether it wasn't discussed at all or what exact "terms" were discussed I have no idea. All I know is it was an odd war, but from the perspective of a province taking part in the war and ending it 50,000 peasants short of max pop and down a large number of troops the term "fake" is amusing to say the least!

I am happy with the "I know it if I see it" argument if it were true and people "see" any pre-war terms as being "fake". Sadly they don't. And we know that perfectly well because the kids keep changing their KD names to things like "War agreed. STFO" (funny how today there are no kingdoms advertising their fake-ness quite so obviously!)

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Have you even read my posts? There is no ambiguity here. It was an arranged fake war. If you want to complain to someone complain to your monarch.

yup i don't see any ambiguity here

This thread is turning gold!

By the way, i also wouldnt mind if ED for whatever reason got the same punishment.
Bye Parth! <3

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Originally Posted by Andr3w

Im pretty sure you can find if you try.. Seen various examples, such as some KD's Bank practically have 0 tpa with low draft rate? lol...theres even peeps with 20-50mil or even more out of war?

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In all my ages, I have never ever seen someone my size sit on that much money, so I'm guessing I'd have to look at provs way above my max range, and even then, find very little targets compared to how many juicy targets my own size I can find in eowcfs.

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Originally Posted by Andr3w

if stealing gc is fine for you, does that means hitting into your KD during your eowcf is fine as well, yes?

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Yes it is. But good luck with that. We do build up our TPAs as fast as we can. Plunders in end of war are rarely worth it, as you can't do enough of them in a row, unlike thievery. I said it myself: OEWCF is meant for rebuild, not pump, and I treat it as such while taking advantage of those who don't!

It was an arranged war. If it was a fake war then I guess that is the new definition of fake. Congrats to all those whose "arranged wars" were "worked out" entirely in 3rd party channels instead.

I don't really see what the complaints are here, from reading the comments made it all seems like convenient little excuses to justify why the war turned out like it did. I'm sure unless both parties are total idiots they knew that they were offering favourable deals to each other in a way for them to both profit.

Psychosis needed a war to stop being fed on.
Debauchery needed a war for another win.

Psychosis got what they wanted, had nothing to lose from another war loss in terms of honour/ww's and set terms of damage limitation against most of their provs.
Debauchery got what they wanted, a war win, via offering to not excessively damage the other KD in order to get them to agree to war.

I mean if the above isn't a fake war then am not really sure what would be, just no attacks/ops at all? You traded the option of getting into a war which you "couldn't lose" by setting up overly intricate terms to negate the concept of 2 KDs fighting until one feels it can't win.

The above doesn't even include all the full info that Bishop seems to have read, things like offering favourable agreements outside of the game and some mention of an agreement to stop war after 24 hours?

I might not like Debauchery but I can be impartial, from the "evidence" in this thread I'd say action against them is more than deserved, whether they should have lost every win is something else to argue though as there's pro's and con's to it.

From my above quotations of what majigga and SillyRabbit, who I assume as the 2 monarchs who got banned.. It seems very clear that they agreed a 'fake war'..

Theres no other way to explain it..
max gain for ONLY 24h period + min time withdraw if they let them regain the lands..? Seems obvious..

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Originally Posted by THX1912

...Yes it is. But good luck with that. We do build up our TPAs as fast as we can. Plunders in end of war are rarely worth it, as you can't do enough of them in a row, unlike thievery.

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Nah, was referring to all types of hits, TM included as well :p since provs in eowcf, theres plenty of big peeps whos landfat and heavily NS'ed with barely any def left or chained provs thats easily breakable or etc. Just saying that I myself will not hit or ops peeps in eowcf since I dont like the idea and would not want peeps to do the same to me.. but well maybe thats just me, who knows..

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Originally Posted by silverfox

I might not like Debauchery but I can be impartial, from the "evidence" in this thread I'd say action against them is more than deserved, whether they should have lost every win is something else to argue though as there's pro's and con's to it.

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Lol the definite pro is that they have Prince's honor provinces without 0 war KD record! Not to mention theyre all T/Ms provinces or at least race that is designed more to T/Ms than attacker.. Thats a first I ever seen! Those Elfs must be SUPER attackers to get that much honor with 0 wars ;)

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Originally Posted by silverfox

Psychosis needed a war to stop being fed on.
Debauchery needed a war for another win.

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Debauchery didn't need another win. The current leader in rankings has 5.35 points. Debauchery had 7ww and a 102% ratio. They were far above the next leader.

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Originally Posted by Andr3w

Nah, was referring to all types of hits, TM included as well :p

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I know. A TM wont do any better than a plunder in eowcf. You can still only send 5 hits at best, no matter how little your target has def, and the gains on those 5 wont be worth the trouble.

Yes they do.. more than one war even...

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Originally Posted by SillyRabbit

From my perspective, as a monarch leading a kd with the goal of getting 10 wars, I said whatever any other monarch would say to get war started: Sure lets start this thing!

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