Blackmail for cf's...

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Originally Posted by tetley

maybe persain is right;...
But we'll never know, because they are never in range of each other. As long as all the "warring" kingdoms exclude themselves from competition with kingdoms who are trying to be the best, then it's pretty hard to say that they are on par.

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any thread where the small kds whines about the top or the top *****es about the smaller kds doing something plays out into a war kd tier v top kd tier. And to make something clear im not claiming the war kds could suddenly grow, whore, and beat abs... those kds are capable of waring quite capably, to say they dont grow because they are inactive/unorganized just isnt true they just dont grow because they dont find it fun would rather fight the kds who are of like mind. Dont misconstue things im not saying all those kds are equally skilled because waring=/=whoring. BUT for the war kds that are good most of them have learned to simply stay small as one way to avoid the top . I just find it super funny that the kds that chose to grow have finally found a DIFFERENT semi counter to the constant bottom feeding.

Will be interesting to see if more kds take up the CF us and if another kds take acres we'll give u the same amount of acres or if "top" kds find a way to counter that.

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Originally Posted by PhoenixScorpion

First, how do you think taking the top 3 or dominating the top 5 for so long happens? I guess it has nothing to do with organization? Interesting. I expanded it to include AWAR's because that is usually the culmination of anti-Absalom efforts which always end in failure for the opposition. As per my original post on both account it as by any realistic measure been a failure. Nuff said.

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If you believe being the main contender in a 4 vs 1 or 2 battle is 'domination', then you're right. You can hardly call anything domination when you outnumber someone. That's exactly what it is; outnumbering. When 4 people attack one of two other people, the 4 people would in most cases be victorious. Is it a glorious battle? No.
In other cases, when the one that's outnumbered beats up all of the competition, you could speak of domination. When AMA beat Sanc pretty hard, you can call it domination. When Sanc+Havoc doubled AMA, that's not domination, that's just lame.

Anyone who still believes the GB on AMA was justified is just a frigging tool

Prot,

There was no "GB" on AMA and anyone who believes there was is a tool. You can say they were chain hostiled or even doubled since there was only a 12h gap in between their hostiles, but even these days that can't really pass as a "GB." And while it might not have been "justified" for havoc to wave even after Elit tried to dodge them by claiming they couldn't notice as long as he did not make a cf deal with Sanc after their war, you should have some understanding on why Havoc would wave a kingdom trying to dodge them by fighting an out of war range kingdom.

Your old kingdom, ZZ, had a policy of not letting kingdoms dodge their notice/hostiles prot and there were a number of examples of your kingdom doing exactly this prot, including to Abs kingdoms. Abs never did anything to you when you "doubled" our kingdoms if they tried to dodge your hostiles either. You never had any problem with it when it was your kingdom doing it as far as I could tell, and when you did it, I always told the Abs kingdom that yes it sucks a lot, but they should not be stupid and try and dodge a hostile. And yes, the kingdom would generally try and dodge by waving a kingdom that had robbed them or randomed them or done something else to "start" it, but it's still stupid. Your old kingdom didn't let people get away with it and in this case havoc didn't let Elit get away with it. I believe 3 sanc provinces had robbed Elit when he waved them to dodge Havoc instead of just cfing them (or he could have cf'd them in post war and avoided those 3 robbing him.)

It sucks for Elit and I'm not saying it was fair, but I am saying he did have choices he could have made to ensure he did get a fair fight with havoc but instead he wanted to use Sanc as an excuse to stall their notice/dodge them. When you do stupid stuff, you put yourself at risk of bad stuff happening to you.

Sanc faced the exact same thing here (except even worse since two kingdoms initiated waves on them and Sanc actually tried to cf both but both refused) but no one cares. Earlier, Elit successfully caught Rage out of another war to do what you are calling "2v1 domination" so that also seems to work both ways.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

Prot,

There was no "GB" on AMA and anyone who believes there was is a tool. You can say they were chain hostiled or even doubled since there was only a 12h gap in between their hostiles, but even these days that can't really pass as a "GB." And while it might not have been "justified" for havoc to wave even after Elit tried to dodge them by claiming they couldn't notice as long as he did not make a cf deal with Sanc after their war, you should have some understanding on why Havoc would wave a kingdom trying to dodge them by fighting an out of war range kingdom.

Your old kingdom, ZZ, had a policy of not letting kingdoms dodge their notice/hostiles prot and there were a number of examples of your kingdom doing exactly this prot, including to Abs kingdoms. Abs never did anything to you when you "doubled" our kingdoms if they tried to dodge your hostiles either. You never had any problem with it when it was your kingdom doing it as far as I could tell, and when you did it, I always told the Abs kingdom that yes it sucks a lot, but they should not be stupid and try and dodge a hostile. And yes, the kingdom would generally try and dodge by waving a kingdom that had robbed them or randomed them or done something else to "start" it, but it's still stupid. Your old kingdom didn't let people get away with it and in this case havoc didn't let Elit get away with it. I believe 3 sanc provinces had robbed Elit when he waved them to dodge Havoc instead of just cfing them (or he could have cf'd them in post war and avoided those 3 robbing him.)

It sucks for Elit and I'm not saying it was fair, but I am saying he did have choices he could have made to ensure he did get a fair fight with havoc but instead he wanted to use Sanc as an excuse to stall their notice/dodge them. When you do stupid stuff, you put yourself at risk of bad stuff happening to you.

Sanc faced the exact same thing here (except even worse since two kingdoms initiated waves on them and Sanc actually tried to cf both but both refused) but no one cares. Earlier, Elit successfully caught Rage out of another war to do what you are calling "2v1 domination" so that also seems to work both ways.

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Yea it wasn't a GB, that's correct. That was however, going with PS's flow ;p

I don't know what hostile dodging you're referring to. You mean like KDs running to FW? CGG did some stupid **** from which most of it never really agreed with. I prefer fairplay, but if you treat me wrongly, then I wont mind getting my hands dirty and I'll return the favor. Ask Allanon's old ghetto, he should know. (Who was actually friends with Angels of Abs ;p)

Saying it wasn't fair what happened to Elit is taking it EXTREMELY light. What happened was lame and that's fact. Even if Elit had a choice, it's still his choice. Not Havoc's.

So Who is the real winner in all this....SWEA! First age for us and we accomplished a lot! HoH non abs next age, Abs need to recruit...3 kd:s won't be enough.

Storm is coming...

HoH already decided to leave the alliance with Abs nxt age..?

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

There was no "GB" on AMA and anyone who believes there was is a tool. You can say they were chain hostiled or even doubled since there was only a 12h gap in between their hostiles, but even these days that can't really pass as a "GB." And while it might not have been "justified" for havoc to wave even after Elit tried to dodge them by claiming they couldn't notice as long as he did not make a cf deal with Sanct after their war, you should have some understanding on why Havoc would wave a kingdom trying to dodge them by fighting an out of war range kingdom.

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Yes it was clumsy by Elit to claim Havoc couldn't notice unless deal actuallyt said that. But, Elit didn't go pick a fight with out of range kd, the out of range kd did that. If Elit had gone after Sanct without any provocation then yes I could understand Havoc waving into that hostile. But if you wanna claim you promote fairness and 1v1 you can't go around and wave into an active hostile like Havoc did, they had no justifiable cause to do so, which makes the situation alliance bullying and definitely everything BUT 1v1 and fair play.

The minute Sanct stole that money on that cow(yes it was a stupid ass move to leave 0 thieves on a cow) MA could not fight Havoc "fair" unless Havoc was willing to let MA regain all that money, retrain and then reset notice to 48h, and I can understand why Havoc would not want to do that since MA had just explored a bunch of acres but either Sanct should not have interfered or Havoc should not have waved into an active hostile, especially one in which an alliance kd was involved in. From a fairness/1v1 situation Abs picked one of the worst options, from a tactical/strategical point of view Havoc did the only reasonable thing with the situation Sanct put them in and that's something completely fine by the game standards but don't come and say you promote fairness because that situation clearly makes that claim a blatant lie.

I don't think you could say MA have won this age in spirit either because no one could know the turn of events if things had happened differently. But yes any crown is tarnished by the whole 2v1 situation with the possible exception of HoH crowning since they weren't really involved in that situation(but they definitely benefited from it) in any way(which rage is because ASF and Proteus has been vocal defenders of Havoc/Sanct doing what they did)

I just got the were deja vu of people saying so and so was leaving abs etc. I haven't heard such from HoH and I haven't asked. Our KD liked them well enough as an ally and attempted to do right by them as best we could.

If they do choose to leave we look forward to good competition. Odds are if a unified anti abs group bands together next age it may have 1 successful age in which all courtesies are thrown out the window. After that I would expect to see a number of their leaders go back to "retirement" and for normal play to return / a bunch of grievances to be made. These same kind of claims are made time and time again. I recall when covenant had like 20 provinces solo cow to hit abs killers all oop and early age, they won cow race that age and I don't think abs won crown (believe seasons did, but cannot recall). The next age covenant was disbanded as their kingdoms all lost wars and although abs did not win they made a good statement about the strength of their kingdoms. I believe last aware insolence/rapture (forget) basically got left to be gangbanged down as the largest remaining anti abs when all others withdrew, resulting in a large setback and merger for that kd. But a non abs did win so I guess mission accomplished :D

I recall an AWAR age also where warcry won. Believe it resulted in the disbanding of Sonata/Dreams? Forget which one and tons of anti abs KD's being beaten in wars. As well as a neutral party winning! :D

Anyway as always I look forward to the future age, wish the racial changes were a bit more dramatic but hopefully some of the mechanics changes are big enough to make the age feel different :D Recently it seems KD's would rather band in secret then actually form a competing alliance, I would expect to see similar next age, odds are one of the kingdoms that considers itself stronger would go neutral / farm both parties or such to grow well the others are stuck in awar :D Either way fun times.

There really only is an anti-abs because they're all anti-Proteus. Kick the pathetic guy from Abs and I'm sure every thing will be back to normal.

Aye if you agree.

Well I don't love proteus I have no desire to tell a KD to kick a player or else!

i mean I don't like lots of players :D

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Originally Posted by baka

There really only is an anti-abs because they're all anti-Proteus. Kick the pathetic guy from Abs and I'm sure every thing will be back to normal.

Aye if you agree.

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Just because you got kicked from your kd doesn't mean others should be kicked from theirs. ;;)

AquaSeaFoam, all your argument about dodge Havoc is nonsense. Let me explain you.
All this age AMA had to play much more risk and plan his moves alot better from ABS because we are not ally with 4 from 5 kds in top. For this during our Hostile with rage we keep explore all pool. Its was risk move but there is no way to let pool decay when sanctuary was in max pump mode + alredy up 2 cows during time we spend with Rage.

After we CF rage there was 2+ weeks till yr6. All our schedule was well planed to can get in time our cows up. Its required from us to make another very risk move. We explore our last Cow 18h before CF with sanctuary expire. Its was crazy move but main propose was this prov to be bait and make Sanc go after us. Plan worked and they gave notice us instant right after CF time end. When Sanctuary gave us notice they was clear favorite incoming hostile/war. In reversed situation i will won this war with no problems. Reason why sanctuary loss his war is they didunt think like indie kd. They decide to go max delay strategy. Propose was war with them to end when CF with havoc end so ever if they loss ABS to can vulture us and win. This was pure fault strategy because there is no way for them to protect his gold in 1 week hostile. From other side gold matter only if you lack it. When hostile start Sanc had over 1-2 billion gc and AMA had enough for few dragons. Correct move for Sanctuary was to force fast war and use his sci advantage + cow advantage. Our last cow had 3 mod WPA vs Sanctuary all cows over 7-8 mod wpa. Forcing Hostile will make us gave ops and Sanc cows can easy ll/disable our cow and after it with pure 4 vs 3 provinces who was bigger from AMA to farm them. Most land is stack in cows. If you farm cows its don't matter you will get few humans chained. Delay hostile gave this new cow time to get more WPA + train much more army and become decent prov. After it you loss cow and core battle in war because all your gold was drained. In short Sanctuary loss for use bad strategy.

Reason why we didn't CF Sanctuary after war is because from 1 side dorje was away from irc during post war and from other side was clear all kd is upset. Its was clear Sanctuary is not treat for us so no reason to rush for diplo. They was free to contact me if wanted any deal. None from Sanctuary did it. After post war ended Sanctuary instant start rob our cow. This was done before Havoc notice us. Its was well know from all in ABS, Havoc plan to notice us. Sanctuary start robing right after post war show intention to keep hostile and don't move on. Havoc notice us few minutes after Rob and based to our deal its not valid notice. You can read how you want it, but all propose on this notices is to keep 1 active hostile same time. Sanctuary actions clear show they have Hostile intention against us. During our hostile they did main FB/FG, for prevent us to train. This wont matter if we are in hostile/War with Sanctuary but its going to be fatal if Havoc wave us. For this i can say Double hostile was planed from moment Sanctuary start rob us. They prevented AMA from train up. So we never get 48h notice and clean 1vs1 fight with Havoc. Its why i'm say Sanctuary acted like bad losers. They lost his war, was time to move on and let AMA and Havoc have his fair 1vs1 war.

There is zero reason to let Sanctuary rob all our gold and CF them after it. This dont gave us any FAIR chance to prepare for Havoc. Its why we was forced to wave Sanctuary. Its not dodge, its result from Sanctuary pick fight vs us. Havoc can feel upset but they can blame only his alliance mates and they don't have any right to wave in active hostile.

During post war with Sanctuary we had all our setup based for prepare to get oow 48h notice from Havoc and war them. Kd was in pure pump mode. When we left war we explored all our pool. Its was planed long ago and we did it resource wise, exploring smallest provinces and not double any prov. This way its was almost free explore for us and we don't get provinces with bad wpa. Same time Havoc already messed his prepare for us. They stopped his explore long before our post war end. Our size was around 230k and Havoc 200k with 30k difference they cant skip his explore till last moment. OOW we explore 22k acres make our lead 50k over Havoc. We had 4 vs 4 cows but 2 from our cows was over 20k and bigger from Havoc was 18-19k. This way we had Cow advantage. From explore we put most from our acres in Halfings. Its gave our core much size advantage too. Human cant break Halfing/full elites in home, and not when this halfing is bigger too. We had enough gold generated in 4 days post war. Hit fort stance 24h before our notice with Havoc end give us enough time to finish all prepare. In 1vs1 Hostile with Havoc there was zero chances for them to win from begin. Its why all state how We wanted to dodge them because we explore don't make any sense. We did explore in all our hostiles with rest abs kds all age.

AquaSeaFoam, grow up and admit what Sanctuary and Havoc did was lame act. Don't defend something what is pure wrong. There never was any dodge and there never was any strategy reason for try dodge. If we wanted to dodge and planed to wave Sanctuary we wont sit on 40-50 draft and no army. I'm not this stupid to PLAN wave this way.

HoH > Rage any day of the year, month, week. I shall elaborate when the time comes.

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Originally Posted by goodz

I just got the were deja vu of people saying so and so was leaving abs etc. I haven't heard such from HoH and I haven't asked. Our KD liked them well enough as an ally and attempted to do right by them as best we could.

If they do choose to leave we look forward to good competition. Odds are if a unified anti abs group bands together next age it may have 1 successful age in which all courtesies are thrown out the window. After that I would expect to see a number of their leaders go back to "retirement" and for normal play to return / a bunch of grievances to be made. These same kind of claims are made time and time again. I recall when covenant had like 20 provinces solo cow to hit abs killers all oop and early age, they won cow race that age and I don't think abs won crown (believe seasons did, but cannot recall). The next age covenant was disbanded as their kingdoms all lost wars and although abs did not win they made a good statement about the strength of their kingdoms. I believe last aware insolence/rapture (forget) basically got left to be gangbanged down as the largest remaining anti abs when all others withdrew, resulting in a large setback and merger for that kd. But a non abs did win so I guess mission accomplished :D

I recall an AWAR age also where warcry won. Believe it resulted in the disbanding of Sonata/Dreams? Forget which one and tons of anti abs KD's being beaten in wars. As well as a neutral party winning! :D

Anyway as always I look forward to the future age, wish the racial changes were a bit more dramatic but hopefully some of the mechanics changes are big enough to make the age feel different :D Recently it seems KD's would rather band in secret then actually form a competing alliance, I would expect to see similar next age, odds are one of the kingdoms that considers itself stronger would go neutral / farm both parties or such to grow well the others are stuck in awar :D Either way fun times.

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The abscov awar was where warcry won after getting a gbed cow. They decided to not participate in awar and stay neutral but then they got people to hit a province and set him up for massive aid to get a cow going. The biggest anti abs kd was sinners who had technically given button to every kd cos of their out of war razing. So then they warred Rage first and then Grace where they lost both wars(of course with out of war razes which were the main thing in all the wars that age) Abs won like 14-3 wars that age against aabs kds. But hats of to trinity that age for taking the most of it. Warcry won that age

The second awar started with Dreams and pbs hitting out Rage and Grace who were 1 and 2 that age and fratzia and 1 more kd joinin in. But later They lost all wars(if i am not wrong) and dreams deleted/disbanded leaving their allies to bear the brunt.. I guess Rage won that age but I am not sure..!!

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Originally Posted by Judge

The second awar started with Dreams and pbs hitting out Rage and Grace who were 1 and 2 that age and fratzia and 1 more kd joinin in. But later They lost all wars(if i am not wrong) and dreams deleted/disbanded leaving their allies to bear the brunt.. I guess Rage won that age but I am not sure..!!

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Dreams existed age 50-51 and they never was part from any awar. KD got GBed from ABS but its not awar.