Age 68 preliminary changes

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Originally Posted by Persain

their nw is being upped based on relative streagth. if u just uped military without increase their value you horribly decrease the value of wizzards and theives and make anything not pure attacker horribly non viable.

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The increase is not based on relative strength though, orc got the biggest buff to *relative* strength. Last age orc elite + horse was 2x raw strength of a def spec, this age they are 2.33. This is a 16.5% increase in *relative* strength but a 75% increase in elite NW value. We could increase elites to 60-70 offense points and not increase their relative strength if def specs were boosted to 40 points. Any way, none of the changes justify the NW increase... its just going to devalue everything that is not elites in the NW calculation to a point that will cause serious game balance issues.

I am against the mystic having a WPA bonus it makes it too easy for them. I say instead increase the sci bonus to the same as the rogue's bonus (75% sci bonus).

I think heretic is good as is. It does not need a bonus to WPA for it to work. Though it would be nice if they get some damage bonus or +1 mana/stealth bonus into the mix or maybe both .

Elves looks ok (unit wise), I am against any suggestions to change their defense of both their elites and dspecs. Let them be 7/6 and 0/7! It is a playstyle which isnt for everyone.

I'm hoping you include the change that the espionage page sorting would work properly.


Currently if you sort a kingdom by GC, it sorts by the first digit, rather than the actual value. ie. you could get 10k, 2mil, 3k, etc...rather than 3k, 10k, 2mil.

Same goes for food but runes seems to work properly.


Having come back from a long hiatus of utopia I was thrilled to see steps away from the reliance on 3rd party formatters etc so it'd be great to have the full functions as intended...

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Originally Posted by handofthrawn

Basically it's going old school. which changes the game completely. Long normal periods, long hostiles and fewer wars every age. Fewer tms and more hybrid attackers. I am curious to see how the warring tier handles these changes. Do they adapt and learn or do they just quit.

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This is what I see, too. I like it the more I think about it. I understand the nw values and some of the other values, and it makes me smile. :)

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Originally Posted by Jonzilla

I'm hoping you include the change that the espionage page sorting would work properly.


Currently if you sort a kingdom by GC, it sorts by the first digit, rather than the actual value. ie. you could get 10k, 2mil, 3k, etc...rather than 3k, 10k, 2mil.

Same goes for food but runes seems to work properly.


Having come back from a long hiatus of utopia I was thrilled to see steps away from the reliance on 3rd party formatters etc so it'd be great to have the full functions as intended...

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i would very much prefer land or nw sorting options on espionage page, instead of stuff like food or personality etc..

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Originally Posted by beans

The increase is not based on relative strength though, orc got the biggest buff to *relative* strength. Last age orc elite + horse was 2x raw strength of a def spec, this age they are 2.33. This is a 16.5% increase in *relative* strength but a 75% increase in elite NW value. We could increase elites to 60-70 offense points and not increase their relative strength if def specs were boosted to 40 points. Any way, none of the changes justify the NW increase... its just going to devalue everything that is not elites in the NW calculation to a point that will cause serious game balance issues.

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no what im saying is the rule of thumb comes from the guide and nw

Building (complete) 55
Building (under construction) 30
Acre 15

Item NW Value
Peasant 1
Soldier 1.5 (3 if Halfling)
Defense specialist Defense Points * 1
Offense specialist Offense Points * 0.8
Thief 4
Wizard 4

there is a value of 1 point of military to the nw of things like buildings tpa/wpa/peasents/science..... if we just up military numbers without uping their associated nw we arent actually changing any mechanics to the game just re-arranging numbers. This new suggestions bishop is making increases overall military and their associated nw impacts and thus devalues the relative cost to your nw of everything else in the game. This means doing things like running 10 tpa become more viable because you divert a 10 nw leet for a 4 nw theif instead of say 5.25->4. T/m's actually become the most nw effient races in the game. While its possible we could argue that say elf doesnt have the stats to be a caster or that the relative X/Y numbers of feary/halfling are to small to generate a defense we have actually made t/m's more nw efficient and thus opened up the possibility for hybids to become viable again.


in addtion your This is a 16.5% increase in *relative* strength but a 75% increase in elite NW value. is wrong because specs going to 6 increases the spec nw by 50% over the current value (while keeping the cost/point the same). so orc goes from 7->12 and 6->10.5 we have taken the orc from 1.166 offenseive leet point per nw to a new value of 1.14 offenseive leet point per nw and actually increased their nw effiency as far as attacking goes.

FYI all of this is why the constantly *****ing and moaning on these boards gets insanely ignored. most people only see "larger military values=more variety" not the entire picture that is completely devalueing the nw effects of everything but military and making it viable to run a completely different kd.

I really like that there are so many big changes, but I can't get my head around:

'-50% food consumption' for dwarves.

That seems so odd that the fatties eat less.

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Originally Posted by Persain

no what im saying is the rule of thumb comes from the guide and nw

Building (complete) 55
Building (under construction) 30
Acre 15

Item NW Value
Peasant 1
Soldier 1.5 (3 if Halfling)
Defense specialist Defense Points * 1
Offense specialist Offense Points * 0.8
Thief 4
Wizard 4

there is a value of 1 point of military to the nw of things like buildings tpa/wpa/peasents/science..... if we just up military numbers without uping their associated nw we arent actually changing any mechanics to the game just re-arranging numbers. This new suggestions bishop is making increases overall military and their associated nw impacts and thus devalues the relative cost to your nw of everything else in the game. This means doing things like running 10 tpa become more viable because you divert a 10 nw leet for a 4 nw theif instead of say 5.25->4. T/m's actually become the most nw effient races in the game. While its possible we could argue that say elf doesnt have the stats to be a caster or that the relative X/Y numbers of feary/halfling are to small to generate a defense we have actually made t/m's more nw efficient and thus opened up the possibility for hybids to become viable again.


in addtion your This is a 16.5% increase in *relative* strength but a 75% increase in elite NW value. is wrong because specs going to 6 increases the spec nw by 50% over the current value (while keeping the cost/point the same). so orc goes from 7->12 and 6->10.5 we have taken the orc from 1.166 offenseive leet point per nw to a new value of 1.14 offenseive leet point per nw and actually increased their nw effiency as far as attacking goes.

FYI all of this is why the constantly *****ing and moaning on these boards gets insanely ignored. most people only see "larger military values=more variety" not the entire picture that is completely devalueing the nw effects of everything but military and making it viable to run a completely different kd.

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Yes!
And don't forget how max gains are calculated. Up, not down. A small thing in a bigger picture.

meh, my entire post disappeared because of auto log-out, im not really sure if ill have the energy to rewrite it again :/

mkay, a deep breath and i give another try..

two sections - mechanics, and role-play

mechanics;
- halfling vs elf is a disaster.. halfer pop bonus makes up for military difference (%10 pop is roughly %15 military difference), and halfer has both a better thievery mod AND a better magic mod.. halfer also has as much utility bonuses as elf has.. something is EXTREMELY wrong here..
- currently orc and undeads have somewhat of a balance, but orc elite will have both higher offense, and relatively better ambush defense compared to now.. this is big difference and tips the scale toward orcs heavily..
- i like the bigger nw and numbers on military and the new gameplay this will bring - but very important question is thief & wizard nw.. will they scale up along with military, or keep their current nws?
- elf & dwarves both have 7/7 military with no pop bonus - remind you this is weaker in relative percentage compared to 5/5 of similar races of old.. both also lost their trademark bonuses of be & wpa, so theyre quite weak as of these numbers..
- human has only a disadvantage for war, all it has is econ bonuses which mostly effect prep times - it doesnt make much sense while they have a weaker and cheaper elite compared to other attackers..
- refunding runes mechanic was something i had suggested myself, was intended for a dark elf resurrection though, but i think it fits this heretic theme very well.. this is nice addition to personalities which actually has a niche in combat aspect, cant comment on exact value though, because this is a complete new area and it is the only nm caster now..
- i strongly oppose shorter eowcf.. sometimes it takes up to 48h just to build the land and stuff, let alone the unmeasurable relaxation period.. as a middle-ground, id offer - 72h eowcf, immediate removal of debuffs, cheaper building (or full size credits rather than only barren), double wizards, and higher draft speed..
- id very much like to see building size drastically effect our science distribution, rather than a cosmetic boost.. id also prefer to see 'hybrid' generators such as tgs giving 2x military, banks giving 2x income, but arms giving 1x military and 1x income.. tools would come from only hybrids, such as towers, wts etc..

role-play;
- dont make us think of winged stuff on horses.. please..
- dwarves eat a lot, lets not discuss that.. if you want them require less farms mechanically, give them bushel generation per acre instead and keep their higher food consumption.. id very much prefer to hear 'dwarves dont need farms because they can grow food anywhere due to their advanced architecture, and endless hunger' instead of, 'ok dwarves dont need farms anymore because theyve eaten the entire world all the past ages and now too stuffed to eat a single piece more'
- halfers have a better spell efficiency than elves.. seriously..

and last but not least;

WHERE THE F IS DARK ELVES?

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Originally Posted by Jonzilla

I really like that there are so many big changes, but I can't get my head around:

'-50% food consumption' for dwarves.

That seems so odd that the fatties eat less.

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fatties would imply fat they are all muscles bro! ALL MUSCLES.

Though its a typo that Bishop should have fixed. ;)

I take that back, Bishop didnt make a typo hes jsut dumb. :(

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Originally Posted by LoRD_SaMPuaN

role-play;
- dont make us think of winged stuff on horses.. please..

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Winged horses?

On a more serious note, i like most of the changes it looks like it will shake things up a bit.

BUT

Like almost everyone else ive seen responding here, i am strongly against the reduction of EOWCF. Either implement the buffs/bonuses to make the shorter time viable (though doesnt give players the mental down time). No problem with 2 day fort, but CF is very different matter.

Flogger: Depends really, because with less fortified and shorter EoWCF, the war tiers wont be able to afford full elite pumps, while the growth can, so i think the NW gap will increase, not decrease... especially with war tiers not being able to landdrop if they go for honour, which many of those in growth kds range does, if the anon honour loss stays.

You will see more KDs up at the top wanting to defend their acres which means more unforseen diplo for the top to deal with... And if the top got huge acres and no elites to hit downwards they are at a HUGE disadvantage to be topfeed already by war tiers that are elite heavy, so you reckon the growth will take that chance? I dont think so, and for those lower war tiers, they will simply not be bottomfeed by the top10 after yr4, which is a lot better then bottomfed to yr8/9...

- Ill keep mentioning this every age, when will gains be based on Acres rather then NW? - Will sort so many issues.

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Originally Posted by Bishop

Why not make changes? its not like they can't be reversed if they don't work.

People are using eowcf and fort as a crutch to be 100% ready oow and no one is in normal any more. Good chance fort will be tweaked further in later ages.

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Fortified isn't just your problem. It's the kingdoms that need a PM and agreement with you before they war because apparently laying siege upon them isn't enough. You will always have a kingdom unwilling to war as long as they are able to shrug it off.

On the max meter / WW reward front...

I would suggest expanding it some. Maybe make it such that the WW bonus isn't awarded if the gap is greater than 50-200% NW? I can recall at least one time in the last 5 ages where a #1/#2 fight wasn't in declare range when it escalated to war, and that seems like an unreasonable time to deny WW bonus.

With rushed becoming the fastest sci, you probably should either nerf banks or buff schools -- currently, banks will outperform schools to max bonus on rushed for most provs. It's close, but when banks are essentially almost always strictly better if all you're doing is buying science, that's a problem.