Israel, it's about time!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lightzy

Israel has no terror groups like irgun and levi.

---

No, they have terrorist groups like "The Israeli Army".

Quote:

---

All terrorism and intent targetting of civilians is wrong. Israelis did have terrorist organizations, but they don't now.
Now it has a lot of leftist organizations, human rights advocates, etc.

---

And an intensely "right wing" government that seems to think that it can use bombs and bullets to quell anti-israeli sentiment.

The simple fact is, that the more Israel commits these blatent acts of terrorism, the *MORE* support that anti-israeli groups will have. When Israel does not even blink at attacking schools, hospitals, relief organisations; does not hesitate to shoot fleeing, unarmed civilians in the back; doesn't see the folly in there "the best palestinian is a dead palestinian" attitude - how can anyone that looks feel anything other than antipathy for this brutal, murderous, criminal regieme.

It would be good to see many of the senior military officers, and members of the political command chain in the Hague where they belong, awaiting execution after their conviction for war crimes.

Quote:

---

Where are the leftists or peace seekers of the palestinians?

---

Dead with Israeli bullets in their back

Quote:

---

Israel can't always rely on UN law...

---

Certainly not when they shell the UNRWA headquarters, UN schools, hospitals, and murder civilians in huge numbers.

TheMistressOfBaal, you are clearly a stoffi #2 that tires to spread propaganda regardless to whether it's true or not. You make up stuff and live in your own world. You add bits of truth to what you say to sound more believable but you can't back most of what you say with anything. That's why you ignored my post replying to you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lightzy

Israel has no terror groups like irgun and levi.
Those were back in the british mandate years and as once said "everyone except jesus christ was born in sin", including nations. If you want you can go back to the norman conquest of the british islands and say it was wrong, but that's just how it was.
All terrorism and intent targetting of civilians is wrong. Israelis did have terrorist organizations, but they don't now.

---

Lol! I know this discussion is far from funny, but man, you made me laugh.

See, if Israel is allowed to have terrorists [now supposedly long gone...doubtful] and be born in sin, don't the Palestinians get their chance of doing their sins?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lightzy

Now it has a lot of leftist organizations, human rights advocates, etc.

Where are the leftists or peace seekers of the palestinians?

---

Maybe they'll have leftists and human rights advocates 60-70 years from now. Or maybe they won't. Cause guess what? Israel's bombings are boosting the numbers on Hamas's side.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lightzy

I'll tell you where, they're all in the west bank.

---

Oh really? Why? Cause they ain't speaking up against Israel?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lightzy

Why are they not in gaza?
Because iranian hamas threw them off of roofs and executed them publically.

---

Israel quietly supported the creation of Hamas to get back at Fatah and hoped to develop divisions between Palestinians. Divide and conquer. Sound familiar?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lightzy

With such barbarians

---

Nice choice of words. Reminds me of the Romans.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lightzy

With such barbarians are you even surprised of the 'human shield' concept (which was thought up and 'mainstreamified' by a radical hamas operative which israel has recently eliminated) ?

---

Hamas might use it, but I doubt they were the ones that thought it up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lightzy

hamas has money to spend on thousands and thousands of rockets, explosives, guns and ammunition? Could they have built gaza and modernized it in the last years?

---

They did build schools and hospitals, tried to improve general infrastructure. And every country has military budgets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lightzy

but people still stuck in the mindset of legalized slavery (most muslim countries), no vote for women and covering them up with towels, and throwing their political opposition off of rooftops and publically executing them are simply NOT GOOD NEIGHBOURS.

---

Clearly, you know very little of Islam. What you are describing are the opinions of radicals and extremists, who are being helped on their way to more and more power by the actions such as the operation on Gaza.

Legalised slavery? The prophet encouraged freeing slaves, even if you had to buy them first. It's true that slavery was present during the Muslim era, no arguing against that. Instead of completely abolishing slavery, the practice was reformed. The slaves were given more rights than, in my opinion, they've ever had in any other form of society. They were not the slaves of the new world. It is considered by many that total abolishment of slavery was not entire practical in the socio-political circumstances of that era. It is in fact considered wrong to have slaves in Islam. Why? You know that "all men are created equal and are brothers" thing in the US constitution? The same thing is said in Islam.

Btw, slavery does not exist in Muslim countries anymore.

Women also were given more rights than it was common back then. Islam says women are the second half of a pair. Equal to a man. While witchhunts were going on across Europe, Muslim women had the right to education, personal property and a career of her own. In fact the prophet's first wife was a business woman.

But these sensible Muslims, the ones that don't really mind the existence of Israel, the ones who condemn Al Qaeda, the ones who are called "moderate Muslims", are being silenced by these kinds of actions. The Muslims are a sensitive bunch. If they had been left alone, they would have emerged as the tolerant society it is. The meaning of Islam, is peace.

But I have strayed too far from the topic. Apologies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lightzy

the entire 'arab nation' broke UN law time and time again right when israel came to be (by UN decision) by attacking and waging in war.

---

I'd have loved to see Europe's reaction if Israel was created there. Of course, they might have felt too guilty to wage war against them. Or maybe not, since the European powers didn't want to risk it.
The Arabs had no reason to feel guilty, though. Hence, they didn't feel obliged to give up their land for someone else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lightzy

what would you do if for 8 years rockets rained on your house?

---

One thing I wouldn't do is bomb schools and hospitals full of kids.

"The meaning of Islam, is peace."

Okay, too much.

Lesser educated Muslims sometimes claim that the root word of Islam is “al-Salaam,” which is “peace” in Arabic.

The root word for Islam is “al-Silm,” which means “submission” or “surrender.” There is no controversy about this among Islamic scholars.

Submission and peace can be very different concepts, even if a form of peace is often brought about through forcing others into submission. As the modern-day Islamic scholar, Ibrahim Sulaiman, puts it, "Jihad is not inhumane, despite its necessary violence and bloodshed, its ultimate desire is peace which is protected and enhanced by the rule of law."

In truth, the Qur’an not only calls Muslims to submit to Allah, it also commands them to subdue people of other religions until they are in a full state of submission to Islamic rule. This has inspired the aggressive history of Islam and its success in conquering other cultures.

If the muslim women is equal to the muslim man, then why muslim women do not inherit property in equal portions to males?

If the muslim women is equal to the muslim man, then why the muslim women cant marry whoever she wants?

If the muslim women is equal to the muslim man, then why the Qu'ran gives muslim men permission to beat their wives for disobedience. It plainly says that husbands are “a degree above” wives. The Hadith says that women are intellectually inferior, and that they comprise the majority of Hell’s occupants.

About Slavery...

Millions of Christians were enslaved by Muslims, and tens of millions of Africans. The Arab slave-trading routes would stay open for 1300 years, until pressure from Christian-based countries forced Islamic nations to declare the practice illegal (in theory). To this day, the Muslim world has never apologized to the victims of Jihad and slavery.

By any objective measure, the "Religion of Peace" has been the harshest, bloodiest religion the world has ever known.

Nemo, as far as I know, Israel is the only part in this conflict that has forced civilians to act as physical shields for their soldiers, picking out random palestinians on the street and forcing them to enter houses where militants are believed to hide. The one who opens the door is often met with a hail of bullets, and many civilians have died as a result of IDF using human shields.

Israeli Supreme court(not sure what it's called in english) has decided this to illegal now though, so it hasn't occurred lately, but Israel is known to ignore what the Supreme Court decides.

Hamas on the other hand, has never used any tactics like this. Quite on the contrary, they use the same tactic poles, french, norwegians, Iraqees, italians, etc used in various wars. When occupied, the resistance hides among the civilian population. This is very normal, and will happen in every war where a country occupies a land which is not theirs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mourhelm

TheMistressOfBaal, you are clearly a stoffi #2 that tires to spread propaganda regardless to whether it's true or not. You make up stuff and live in your own world. You add bits of truth to what you say to sound more believable but you can't back most of what you say with anything. That's why you ignored my post replying to you.

---

So everyone who brings up important questions and info is an extremist? You gotta learn to face realities, and not just comment what you want to.
Ofc this is unpleasant for you, because it conflicts with your view on this conflict.
It's time to wake up and realize Israel DOES target civilians. We've shown this many times. WAKE UP!

Ppl in the west are turning more and more against Israel, and in some years when the oldest, Christian generation is gone from politics, Israel will struggle to find any support anywhere because of their monstrous treatment of human beings.
The ONLY ones in my generation 18-30 years old who supports Israel, are the heavy religious ones. And that goes for maybe 1 out of 30.

Hamas is responsible for civilian casualties in Israel, no doubt, all 3 civilians.
Israel is responsible for all 1100 deaths in Gaza, among them 60% children/women, and many male civilians.

No one forced any of them, they chose it themselves.


Why do you refuse too comment what we're saying to you? you cannot ignore plain facts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tarvan

The root word for Islam is “al-Silm,” which means “submission” or “surrender.” There is no controversy about this among Islamic scholars.

---

Peace through devoting yourself to God. The Sufis defined God as an infinite being. Their view was that the world is created from God's light, or energy. In effect, EVERYTHING is a part of God. The woods, the trees, the devil, all of it. Kind of synchronizes with Hinduism, which worships different facets of the infinite. Of course, the goal of Islam is to pay homage to that infinite conscience. And eventually be one with it. Only through giving yourself up to it, can that be achieved.

Of course, there have been and are different interpretations of Qur'an.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tarvan

Submission and peace can be very different concepts, even if a form of peace is often brought about through forcing others into submission.

---

Er...peace by making others submit? Only in S&M.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tarvan

As the modern-day Islamic scholar, Ibrahim Sulaiman, puts it, "Jihad is not inhumane, despite its necessary violence and bloodshed, its ultimate desire is peace which is protected and enhanced by the rule of law."

---

He's not the first person to suggest that global domination might bring peace. In fact, that is what Armageddon is all about. When only one side is left standing [Jesus and Imam Mehadi according to the Muslims] and there is no more war.

There's no point in seeking global domination otherwise, since that is as unlikely as lions and lambs becoming best friends.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tarvan

In truth, the Qur’an not only calls Muslims to submit to Allah, it also commands them to subdue people of other religions until they are in a full state of submission to Islamic rule.

---

I disagree. It is advised that you should invite other people to embrace Islam. In other words, preach the religion. There are some people however, who make interpretations of the Qur'an to suit their ends.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tarvan

If the muslim women is equal to the muslim man, then why muslim women do not inherit property in equal portions to males?

---

Women inherit land from their parents, which is hers to use as she chooses. Her husband has to provide her with a dowry, which is also, for her to spend as she chooses. She may work and spend the money as she chooses. In case of her husband's death, she gets a share of his property as well. The man gets nothing save what he inherits from his father.

Why the initial disproportionate division in land? A husband is completely responsible to provide for his family, i.e. his wife's needs, his children's needs, his parents' needs, other dependent's needs. A wife may choose not to offer a dime of her own into her family, and she has complete right to do so.

As an unmarried woman working, the woman has no obligation to spend money in her father's family. A man is not so lucky.

Also this link might shed more light into property divisions:
http://www.icgt.org/Khutbas/StatOfWomanPIII.htm

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tarvan

If the muslim women is equal to the muslim man, then why the muslim women cant marry whoever she wants?

---

It is her choice whether or not to marry someone. She is the one who says I do. It is encouraged, though, that the whole family agrees upon the husband, mostly for society's sake. But the woman is not forced by religion to marry according to her family's wishes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tarvan

If the muslim women is equal to the muslim man, then why the Qu'ran gives muslim men permission to beat their wives for disobedience.

---

http://www.themodernreligion.com/wom...rison_full.htm
The bottom part deals with wife beatings. The prophet is quoted saying that those that beat their wives are not the best among them. If your husband beats you, you can always divorce, just as you can in today's world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tarvan

It plainly says that husbands are “a degree above” wives.

---

Physically, yes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tarvan

The Hadith says that women are intellectually inferior, and that they comprise the majority of Hell’s occupants.

---

You should not trust all Hadith. Nor all interpretations. Like I said, [and many people in this thread have said] people will find a way to twist things to their benefit.

Btw, there are more women than men in the world. I wouldn't be surprised if Hell's residence numbers adhere to the same ratio.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tarvan

Millions of Christians were enslaved by Muslims, and tens of millions of Africans. The Arab slave-trading routes would stay open for 1300 years, until pressure from Christian-based countries forced Islamic nations to declare the practice illegal (in theory). To this day, the Muslim world has never apologized to the victims of Jihad and slavery.

---

Read my answer to Lightzy regarding slavery. And Christians did not change slavery. The modern world changed it. The British, the French, the Dutch, Portuguese, Americans were all what? Buddhists? And they treated slaves worse than the Muslims.

What you fail to understand is that religions evolve. I doubt any religion is what it was at the beginning. At it's time, Islam was the religion that offered the most humanitarian options with more rights to those that needed it. It would've evolved and adapted in this modern [has to some extent in some countries], had it not been for the rise in extremism. Look at the secular moderate Muslim prevalent countries we had 30-40 years ago. We could've had a great world right now, but mistakes were made that has given rise to bigots and fanatics. Those mistakes are still being made.

Do not blame the religion for the shortcomings of it's followers who fail to follow it's spirit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nemo

Btw, slavery does not exist in Muslim countries anymore.

---

Several quotes from news agencies, human rights groups, guvernamental organizations, etc.:

"Since 1995, international rights organizations such as Human Rights Watch and CASMAS have reported that slavery in Sudan is a common fate of captives in the Second Sudanese Civil War. Pro-government militias have been known to raid non-Muslim southern villages (particularly those of the Dinka) and loot them both for property and for slaves."


"They do not wear chains, nor are they branded with the mark of their masters, but slaves still exist in Mauritania.
In the Saharan Islamic state, a centuries-old system of bondage is resisting the rise of democracy in the largely desert former French colony." (REUTERS)

"Saudi Arabia is a destination for men and women from South and East Asia and East Africa trafficked for the purpose of labor exploitation, and for children from Yemen, Afghanistan, and Africa trafficking for forced begging."
"US State department"

"The Arab slave trade was most active in West Asia, North Africa and East Africa. By the end of the 19th century, such activity had reached a low ebb. In the early 20th century (post World War I) slavery was gradually outlawed and suppressed in Muslim lands, largely due to pressure exerted by Western nations such as Britain and France. However, slavery claiming the sanction of Islam is documented presently in the African republics of Chad, Mauritania, Niger, Mali and Sudan."

"In 2003 a high-level Saudi jurist, Shaykh Salih al-Fawzaan, issued a fatwa claiming “Slavery is a part of Islam. Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam.” He attacked Muslim scholars who said otherwise maintaining, “They are ignorant, not scholars ... They are merely writers. Whoever says such things is an infidel.” At the time of the fatwa, al-Fawzaan was a member of the Senior Council of Clerics, Saudi Arabia’s highest religious body, a member of the Council of Religious Edicts and Research, the Imam of Prince Mitaeb Mosque in Riyadh, and a professor at Imam Mohamed Bin Saud Islamic University, the main Wahhabi center of learning in the country."


So please cut the crap. According to Human Right groups all accross the globe there are still several milions of slaves in the world today (not only in islamic states, but look it up yourself).

EDITED to be in fashion with the others and post a link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...30430438520117

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stoffi

Why do you refuse too comment what we're saying to you? you cannot ignore plain facts.

---

You do just the same stoffi... you're surely a black pot. hahahaha

Human trafficking is a big problem in the third world in general. I'm sorry that I forgot to count that as slavery. In that case, slavery is rampant in many parts of the world.

As for Africa, I made the mistake of totally skipping over it. In my defense, that place has got a lot of problems, and among them slavery sort of buried under a lot of dirt.

Wolfy, I stand corrected.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nemo

Wolfy, I stand corrected.

---

Thank you for your fairness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nemo

As for Africa, I made the mistake of totally skipping over it. In my defense, that place has got a lot of problems, and among them slavery sort of buried under a lot of dirt.

---

Yea, I tend to skip over Africa too. They still lack the infrastructure and technology for the mass-media propaganda machine wich the rest of the world allready has and utilises fully to push forward their point of view.
Therefore we hear less and shorter versions of the negative things from there, but more and more detailed from the rest of the world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WolfDGrey

You do just the same stoffi... you're surely a black pot. hahahaha

---

I do? What did I ignore? Show me, please.


Today, Israel bombed ANOTHER UN school, where 1600 refugees were hiding. UN says Israel knew this very well and the attack was thoroughly planned.
The UN condemns the attack.


So, Israel supporters, why does Israel target Schools, hospitals, Food stores, UN buildings, buildings filled with refugees, market places, etc when you say they don't?
WHY?

Why do they target civilians and humanitarian organizations? This is the nasty truth. Are you too scared to face it?

It's a mystery really stoffi. Even given Israel's prediliction for killing palestinians, targetting the United Nations is the mark of idiotic policy.

There is only one possible motive I can come up with, and that is to make the area so dangerous for aid organisations, that the UN and NGO's pull their people out and leave Gaza vulnerable to enhanced levels of background oppression by the Israeli's.

Expect to see continued opposition by Israel to the presence of international journalists, and continued violence in the palestinian areas, aturally blamed on Hamas by Israel, just as Hamas is being blamed for the attacks by Israel on UN facilities.

Hamas murdered and tortured Palestinians ie:Fatah and local palestinians of Gaza befor during and after thier take over of Gaza,I've posted the videos already in this thread people who sympathise with terrorist make me sick.

And I'll go one futher if thier not terrorist as stoffi suggest's than they are an opposing military force making attacks on the recognized state of Israel and in thus doing so are open to complete war fare overwhelming force is the new doctrine in Israel as it is in the USA ,F... with us and die!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stoffi

I do? What did I ignore? Show me, please.

---

LOL! You ignored facts from half the posts...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stoffi

why does Israel target Schools, hospitals, Food stores, UN buildings, buildings filled with refugees, market places, etc when you say they don't?
WHY?

---

After at first being blocked by crossfire, rescuers had returned with a 12-year-old boy named Hamada, who was severely injured in the stomach and leg by a missile. Mouma, his mother, herself was wounded in the same missile attack, cried in the crowded hospital ward.

"We want this fighting to stop," she said, angrily blaming all sides, including the Hamas militants, who have often blended in with the civilian population as they lob rockets at Israeli territory. "God punish them, they came to fire rockets right next to our house," Mouma cried.
(Associated Press)

Now... can you ignore THAT? Of course you can.
After all Hitler was an angel. Deporting was done to spare children and women. Hamas are good and anything a jew would do is bad... You're impartial and fair showing arab casualities due to israeli terrorism, but holding silence about the israeli casualities to arab terror organisations even prior to the ones you presented... Truly impartial.

In fact I think you don't even bother to look up anything "from the other side". You just pour misinformation, same as you did with the numbers of the casualities of "thousands of children" until I showed you the numbers (900 total deaths at that time, half civilians) quoted from a palestinian official.

Allmost every second word from you is something to wash clean Hamas, while you claim you don't support them. Well, hell!!!, not even the palestinians support them anymore.

You say "norvegians don't use propaganda" while your posts are using all the elements of a propaganda speach: misinformation, half-trues, one-sided view presented as absolute truth, the visible effort to try to emotionally imply everybody around. The worse is that you know it but you continue to do it.

Well Israel decided that they will stop for now, so you can chill your head. At least until some other rockets don't start to fly...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by allonons

Hamas murdered and tortured Palestinians ie:Fatah and local palestinians of Gaza befor during and after thier take over of Gaza,I've posted the videos already in this thread people who sympathise with terrorist make me sick.

And I'll go one futher if thier not terrorist as stoffi suggest's than they are an opposing military force making attacks on the recognized state of Israel and in thus doing so are open to complete war fare overwhelming force is the new doctrine in Israel as it is in the USA ,F... with us and die!

---

Allonons, you aren't listening to what we are saying. We aren't sympathising with Hamas, we are sympathising with the thousands of civilians that Israel kill and injure.
This is not about what Hamas did in the civil war, it's about what Israel is doing to the people of Gaza right now. The people like Hamas, they voted for Hamas. It's not ideal, but we should respect their wishes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WolfDGrey

LOL! You ignored facts from half the posts...



After at first being blocked by crossfire, rescuers had returned with a 12-year-old boy named Hamada, who was severely injured in the stomach and leg by a missile. Mouma, his mother, herself was wounded in the same missile attack, cried in the crowded hospital ward.

"We want this fighting to stop," she said, angrily blaming all sides, including the Hamas militants, who have often blended in with the civilian population as they lob rockets at Israeli territory. "God punish them, they came to fire rockets right next to our house," Mouma cried.
(Associated Press)

Now... can you ignore THAT? Of course you can.
After all Hitler was an angel. Deporting was done to spare children and women. Hamas are good and anything a jew would do is bad... You're impartial and fair showing arab casualities due to israeli terrorism, but holding silence about the israeli casualities to arab terror organisations even prior to the ones you presented... Truly impartial.

In fact I think you don't even bother to look up anything "from the other side". You just pour misinformation, same as you did with the numbers of the casualities of "thousands of children" until I showed you the numbers (900 total deaths at that time, half civilians) quoted from a palestinian official.

Allmost every second word from you is something to wash clean Hamas, while you claim you don't support them. Well, hell!!!, not even the palestinians support them anymore.

You say "norvegians don't use propaganda" while your posts are using all the elements of a propaganda speach: misinformation, half-trues, one-sided view presented as absolute truth, the visible effort to try to emotionally imply everybody around. The worse is that you know it but you continue to do it.

Well Israel decided that they will stop for now, so you can chill your head. At least until some other rockets don't start to fly...

---

What facts did I ignore? I'm sorry if I missed something you wrote, can you please tell me what I forgot to comment?

Hamas was VOTED into power, Allonnons, you seem to forget that. 1 single mother cursing Hamas doesn't mean they all hate them. Hamas has the support of the population, or you would soon see Hamas getting turned in to Israeli soldiers.

If Hamas shoots up rockets besides homes, they shouldn't be doing that obviously. But Israel shouldn't bomb the home when there are many civilians there. What did those civilians do?
And please remember, no one is forcing Israel to bomb that home. Israel chose to do it. It's their free will, and they are responsible for the killings.

During WWII in Norway, the germans also punished civilians if saboteurs killed germans. They sometimes picked out random civilians or the families of the saboteurs, and executed them, or placed them in prison. Who's fault was that? Norwegian saboteurs who "forced" Germany to respond? Or germany who CHOSE to act like that?


But then you got the bombing of hospitals, UN buildings, humanitarian organizations, Schools, market places, universities, etc which has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Hamas. Hamas wasn't even close, and even if they were, you DON'T F***NG BOMB SCHOOLS OR HOSPITALS FILLED WITH REFUGEES!

That's what I'm talking about.

So, how can you possibly defend this? You are still avoiding these questions. Are they too hard to answer? Seems so. Prove me wrong, please.