The bottom is hot

Sounds like a group of you get to just pick and chose who you will mess with because you know that you are too big and powerful for anyone to do anything. If anyone does dirty deeds to any of you, you call in your friends and make that person pay, but if any of you do dirty deeds you band together and say that is just part of the games. You guys are just bullies and hypocrites that are ruining this game for everyone but yourselves. I am sad to see that Divinity is part of your little click because they were really cool to us, but this **** is wrong on every level.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ed

Sounds like a group of you get to just pick and chose who you will mess with because you know that you are too big and powerful for anyone to do anything. If anyone does dirty deeds to any of you, you call in your friends and make that person pay, but if any of you do dirty deeds you band together and say that is just part of the games. You guys are just bullies and hypocrites that are ruining this game for everyone but yourselves. I am sad to see that Divinity is part of your little click because they were really cool to us, but this **** is wrong on every level.

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Ahhh if you go back and read the thread and Persians logs you will see that Divinity was the one who was dealbroken...

Trust me, I read it, and I am sad to see that Divinity had to go and get Emereti, The U and others involved. My kingdom just got waved by 3 kingdoms much bigger than us. They stole our sciences, our honor, and our acres. What you are saying is that is OK because we did not have a deal with them? Quit trying to defend your actions, and please stop trying to sound so damn noble. You are bullies and hypocrites, and soon you will be playing the game with yourselves because anyone that does not want to join ur little click will just quit the game. Enjoy ur circle jerk boys!

Bullies could come anywhere. The bigs could always hit the smalls. If you have the diplomacy done right, being honest and doesnt **** play, it could go a long way.

You have seen all the nice things from bart since he knows you are probably never in his league. I am sure there are other monarchs that would see him in a different light. Maybe his past dealings with certain numbers in this community have got to say with whats going on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ed

Trust me, I read it, and I am sad to see that Divinity had to go and get Emereti, The U and others involved. My kingdom just got waved by 3 kingdoms much bigger than us. They stole our sciences, our honor, and our acres. What you are saying is that is OK because we did not have a deal with them? Quit trying to defend your actions, and please stop trying to sound so damn noble. You are bullies and hypocrites, and soon you will be playing the game with yourselves because anyone that does not want to join ur little click will just quit the game. Enjoy ur circle jerk boys!

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It's personally aggravating to me that not only has Spartans been going around with that seemingly sweet deals for ghettos which basically just serve to trick kingdoms into warring them, these kingdoms (you UncleEd) then go around defending them like they're doing you a big favour. It's practically the definition of ghetto-bashing, plus the "sweet" deals only serve to protect Spartans: Basically, don't hurt our T/Ms nor chain our provinces too badly. That's not a benefit for the ghetto, that only benefits Spartans.

For all the kingdoms playing for WW and honour who keep complaining Land and NW crowns are only about diplo (not true, it's only like 95%), it can only seem like honour and WW crowns are about who swindles more ghettoes, since there's no way to force a direct conflict between competitors.

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Originally Posted by Chrystal Palace

No one gains off of policing a deal break.

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http://i.imgur.com/vdkSmY7.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by beans

Ok so its only a fake war because of deals made before the war starts? So now that we are in a war we can WD or not regardless of who is winning the war or what deals we are making and its legit, ok.

Oh wait, looking at the wiki about fake wars I see nothing like this. Maybe all these rules are written down some where else that I don't know about? (I kid, but also seriously if there are game rules written down outside of the wiki let me know haha)

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Fake wars are like porn. We know it when we see it.

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Originally Posted by Leonidas

It's personally aggravating to me that not only has Spartans been going around with that seemingly sweet deals for ghettos which basically just serve to trick kingdoms into warring them, these kingdoms (you UncleEd) then go around defending them like they're doing you a big favour. It's practically the definition of ghetto-bashing, plus the "sweet" deals only serve to protect Spartans: Basically, don't hurt our T/Ms nor chain our provinces too badly. That's not a benefit for the ghetto, that only benefits Spartans.

For all the kingdoms playing for WW and honour who keep complaining Land and NW crowns are only about diplo (not true, it's only like 95%), it can only seem like honour and WW crowns are about who swindles more ghettoes, since there's no way to force a direct conflict between competitors.

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Come again? We make those deals so as to not do long-lasting damage to both our kingdoms, unless both of us wants to spend 2 weeks on 90% guilds wpa pumping what wiz we lost (our war with Hipmunks being an exception... they refused that part of war terms which we suggested). We're always totally up front with the fact that we're not a ghetto. And we don't simply wave the f*** out of a kingdom, just because we can *looks at dicks/divinity*, unless they initiate a hostilities without diplo.. Why do you think we have had only four wars this age? Our goal for this age was to WW crown again, ffs!! We spent over two and a half god damn weeks in pump mode after our war with Hipmunks, with NO surprise waves on ghettos, with Bart/Heaven pming everyone within our kingdom range (we were ~57k acres, I think?? Please correct me) asking to see whether they'd war us. He was always honest and up front.

Did he lose his **** in Spartan LINEapp channel when the billionth kingdom turned him down for war? Yes (lolol). Did he go postal and surprise wave a ghetto? No.

Get your facts straight, Leonidas.

Well it is personally aggravating to me, Leonidas that you keep calling my kingdom Ghetto, and assume that the terms I discussed with Bart only benefitted Spartans. It's almost like your saying that not only does my kingdom suck, but I am an absolute idiot. I will admit I was naïve when it came to negotiations, because I assumed that no growth after war is agreed and no PK'ing was a given that did not need to be negotiated, but one of your buddies taught me otherwise. What Bart offered was a friendly, clean war where someone surrenders once there is a clear winner. Afterwards, he would give us feedback on how we could improve. Since his actions were nothing but honorable after we backed out of the war at the last minute, I do not believe you when you say he would have broken his deal with me.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ed

I am sad to see that Divinity is part of your little click because they were really cool to us, but this **** is wrong on every level.

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First we try to be friendly to everyone and its nice to hear we were were really cool to you, however

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ed

Trust me, I read it, and I am sad to see that Divinity had to go and get Emereti, The U and others involved. My kingdom just got waved by 3 kingdoms much bigger than us. They stole...

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how would u suggest dealing with kds that treat u like ****? ignor it? we ingor a lot, when kds significantly larger than us wave us for land/honor/science we sit patiently and wait for them to be done and offer a cf. We dont "get revenge" we just wait it out. Same goes for small kds, a couple of learns here/there whatever we move. Part of the game is getting hit loseing resources, you expect some things.

However when people go over the top and are non-apologetic and insulting sometimes you stand up. Thats what we did hear, wanna her another example? Looking back at this age we had a guy double learned us, we retalx1, he double learned us again. No big deal right? well sometimes u can be nice, sometimes the guy who hit you is in a kd taged "preping for war STFO" you know best way to handle things, double massacre their largest t/m's. Then send their monarch/steward a msg saying something like "sry to hit you but your guy shouldn't b learning us like that and since u guys are preping for war heres a hello control your guy before differnt kd does a full wave." We get a simple yea i hate players like him im sorry, lets cf. Boom cf neither side pissy and we move on. You wanna know funniest thing about that story? The kd we did that to was the kd bart/heaven played in for 90% of this age...might even of been him who was learning, i had no idea till i went and read my in game pms 5 min ago. Then again wasnt that kds monarch and quit the kd so maybe he just doenst like people who place nice.

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Originally Posted by Chrystal Palace

No one gains off of policing a deal break.

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Originally Posted by Palem

Funny TS image disagreeing

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typically your right. However while they aren't benefiting this age might be as much for Emeriti's reputation as anything else, but the fact that the kds helping us are going out of their way to not benefit should kinda make it all the more clear how kds are viewing this gb.


@beans or bart or whoever u are now. per your request http://pastebin.com/EVneAiym is the entire 2 hour conversation i had with heaven since the stuff i posted made him look bad and he wanted to spin it.

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Originally Posted by Binar

http://i.imgur.com/LlG2LoR.gif

Spartans right now

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#missUbinbin

Beans and Bart: Are they the same person?

Is Divinity the flagship top kd now?

Where's that recruitment thread brb

they claim not to be. But seeing how there are several new accounts in these discussion and all defend/side with/praise Spartans it wouldn't surprise me if they were all the same person

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Persain

@beans or bart or whoever u are now. per your request http://pastebin.com/EVneAiym is the entire 2 hour conversation i had with heaven since the stuff i posted made him look bad and he wanted to spin it.

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[Thursday 19/11/2015][11:14] <Heaven> we wanted to make a point aswell --> dont' wave us when we give you a free CF when u were in a weaker position

... and there it is.

I don't know why you posted that conversation, Persain. It hurts your narrative's credibility.

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Originally Posted by Feint

Beans and Bart: Are they the same person?

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No.

well if you expect something in return(in this case apparently an unsaid promise not to wave) it's not really free. In which case it would probably be good to let the other party know what you expect rather assume they know the terms you put on that cf.

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Originally Posted by jo.t.reid

[Thursday 19/11/2015][11:14] <Heaven> we wanted to make a point aswell --> dont' wave us when we give you a free CF when u were in a weaker position

... and there it is.

I don't know why you posted that conversation, Persain. It hurts your narrative's credibility.

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they asked us for that cf it was termless and to stop "randoms'. I dont know how that gets at any narrative. We were in eowcf and they were 2k acres smaller than us. It was meant to allow us to "discuss a possible war". I'd of been fine without it at all.

did u even bother to read it all

[Thursday 19/11/2015][11:14] <Heaven> we wanted to make a point aswell --> dont' wave us when we give you a free CF when u were in a weaker position
01[Thursday 19/11/2015][11:14] <PersainCAT> you asked us for that cf
01[Thursday 19/11/2015][11:14] <PersainCAT> not the other way around
01[Thursday 19/11/2015][11:14] <PersainCAT> there was no "Free cf"

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ed

It's almost like you're saying that not only does my kingdom suck, but I am an absolute idiot.

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Let me help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jo.t.reid

Come again? We make those deals so as to not do long-lasting damage to both our kingdoms, unless both of us wants to spend 2 weeks on 90% guilds wpa pumping what wiz we lost (our war with Hipmunks being an exception... they refused that part of war terms which we suggested). We're always totally up front with the fact that we're not a ghetto. And we don't simply wave the f*** out of a kingdom, just because we can *looks at dicks/divinity*, unless they initiate a hostilities without diplo.. Why do you think we have had only four wars this age? Our goal for this age was to WW crown again, ffs!! We spent over two and a half god damn weeks in pump mode after our war with Hipmunks, with NO surprise waves on ghettos, with Bart/Heaven pming everyone within our kingdom range (we were ~57k acres, I think?? Please correct me) asking to see whether they'd war us. He was always honest and up front.

Did he lose his **** in Spartan LINEapp channel when the billionth kingdom turned him down for war? Yes (lolol). Did he go postal and surprise wave a ghetto? No.

Get your facts straight, Leonidas.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ed

Well it is personally aggravating to me, Leonidas that you keep calling my kingdom Ghetto, and assume that the terms I discussed with Bart only benefitted Spartans. It's almost like your saying that not only does my kingdom suck, but I am an absolute idiot. I will admit I was naïve when it came to negotiations, because I assumed that no growth after war is agreed and no PK'ing was a given that did not need to be negotiated, but one of your buddies taught me otherwise. What Bart offered was a friendly, clean war where someone surrenders once there is a clear winner. Afterwards, he would give us feedback on how we could improve. Since his actions were nothing but honorable after we backed out of the war at the last minute, I do not believe you when you say he would have broken his deal with me.

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You're both completely missing the point. Spartans is being very honest with what they're saying. I've no doubt that they would have kept their word to you, Uncle Ed. If they want to break their word, they find loopholes, like the CF was only accepted on the 8th, therefore it's not an EOACF, just a blank CF, without saying anything upfront. I can assure you that if right after accepting the CF, Divinity broke the CF and said "it was just a blank CF, suck it and give me more acres", Spartans would have a very different story right now.

Anyway that's only on this incident. Let's talk about my bigger point about what I see Spartans doing - swindling ghettoes and doing it very well.Your average ghetto has a rainbow set-up, and really only looks at kingdom NW and kingdom land to determine if a target is a good target. This way Spartans can offer a war that looks "fair" on the surface, but is really anything but (and we're not even talking about activity here). On top of that, since Spartans always offers terms like "Acre cap, declare immediately, no AW, massacre or chain" it's easy for them to start the age with a set-up that maximises these advantages. You then build on these advantages by stacking honour on your T/Ms during early wars (helped by rules like no AW, no massacre, no chain, which also helps to lengthen wars, and further stacks honour on T/Ms). Then you package it all in a deal that sounds very sweet for the receiving kingdom.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed last age that if anything Spartans was trying to avoid conflict with more established kingdoms such as ED (even offering a no-compete), and I really don't recall many (if any) fights with established kingdoms, just news posts of Spartans vs average warring tier kingdom. Yet the claim is that Spartans just wants to FIGHT as many wars every age as possible. If this were true, the easiest way to fight more wars is to challenge kingdoms at, or even above your level, and probably lose some or most of them. Spartans stellar warring record suggests otherwise.

I have no doubt that Spartans is a skilled warring kingdom. But they never seem to want to challenge themselves - why else would you offer to war Divinity and promise to withdraw in 2 days, but ask for your usual slew of requirements? You're just trying to get away with an easier war record to war with, without hurting your T/M provinces, so you want to gift Divinity a war win. That's as fake as any other war.

To me (admittedly a nobody), the post from Uncle Ed was just a revelation as to how Spartans have been getting their wars - by offering ghettoes "sweet deals" that only benefit Spartans even more. I stand by my words that this is swindling ghettoes and ghetto-bashing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Persain

@beans or bart or whoever u are now. per your request http://pastebin.com/EVneAiym is the entire 2 hour conversation i had with heaven since the stuff i posted made him look bad and he wanted to spin it.

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I am not Bart, don't insult me like that lol. Thanks for posting it. Long as hell but interesting.

I think the bottom line for us preventing any deal from being considered at this point is after all the **** play/ DB (definition depends on the kds involved i guess) that people in our kd have had to put up with over the years we are not willing to admit that what we did was a DB unless we know 100% that it would also be called a DB if done to us. You allude to multiple standards in diplo yourself but insist that what we did can only be seen in one way. Why? because you have big kds GBing us OOW. We don't care much about losses this age but we would be willing deal to stop the mess this has become. We are not willing to "publicly admit" that you are right to call this a DB based on the strength of the GBing kds. We have already admitted it was a ****ty thing to do, but based on UTO diplo history and IRL contract law we had/have our reasons to believe this was merely **** play and not a DB. Arguments that it is "obvious" or that we are required to honour the "intent" of a deal and not the letter of a deal have not changed my mind, although they have strengthened my belief that we should not be messing around with **** play at all even against kds that have wronged us. If admitting that breaking a EOA CF that was accepted under conditions explicitly forbidden in the written agreement is a true DB is required, and no standardized diplo is being considered makes this interpretation universal is being considered, then we are all wasting our time and would be better off if the razes are just finished in silence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leonidas

You're both completely missing the point. Spartans is being very honest with what they're saying. I've no doubt that they would have kept their word to you, Uncle Ed. If they want to break their word, they find loopholes, like the CF was only accepted on the 8th, therefore it's not an EOACF, just a blank CF, without saying anything upfront. I can assure you that if right after accepting the CF, Divinity broke the CF and said "it was just a blank CF, suck it and give me more acres", Spartans would have a very different story right now.

Anyway that's only on this incident. Let's talk about my bigger point about what I see Spartans doing - swindling ghettoes and doing it very well.Your average ghetto has a rainbow set-up, and really only looks at kingdom NW and kingdom land to determine if a target is a good target. This way Spartans can offer a war that looks "fair" on the surface, but is really anything but (and we're not even talking about activity here). On top of that, since Spartans always offers terms like "Acre cap, declare immediately, no AW, massacre or chain" it's easy for them to start the age with a set-up that maximises these advantages. You then build on these advantages by stacking honour on your T/Ms during early wars (helped by rules like no AW, no massacre, no chain, which also helps to lengthen wars, and further stacks honour on T/Ms). Then you package it all in a deal that sounds very sweet for the receiving kingdom.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed last age that if anything Spartans was trying to avoid conflict with more established kingdoms such as ED (even offering a no-compete), and I really don't recall many (if any) fights with established kingdoms, just news posts of Spartans vs average warring tier kingdom. Yet the claim is that Spartans just wants to FIGHT as many wars every age as possible. If this were true, the easiest way to fight more wars is to challenge kingdoms at, or even above your level, and probably lose some or most of them. Spartans stellar warring record suggests otherwise.

I have no doubt that Spartans is a skilled warring kingdom. But they never seem to want to challenge themselves - why else would you offer to war Divinity and promise to withdraw in 2 days, but ask for your usual slew of requirements? You're just trying to get away with an easier war record to war with, without hurting your T/M provinces, so you want to gift Divinity a war win. That's as fake as any other war.

To me (admittedly a nobody), the post from Uncle Ed was just a revelation as to how Spartans have been getting their wars - by offering ghettoes "sweet deals" that only benefit Spartans even more. I stand by my words that this is swindling ghettoes and ghetto-bashing.

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We don't pretend to be ghetto, we are upfront that we are a tough kd to war. No AW and what not isnt really that useful for us when warring ghettos, our TM activity and builds are solid and if anything limiting ops just slows us down. It does help make us less scary to war though bc even if a ghetto thinks they cant beat us they might want to war for fun but not get totally wrecked for the age by debilitating ops and pks (see ascension last war). Sure not getting hit with debilitating ops is nice, but vs the kinds of kds that would qualify for your "ghetto swindling" standards we dont need to worry about those kinds of ops even with out an agreement. Perhaps the reason a lot of less experienced kds are afraid of these ops is because of the abuse they have suffered getting slammed by other kds who actually are swindling and ghetto-bashing?

We war pro and amature kds. We would have warred divinity except their build is set up to be super strong in long hostile, and ours is set up to be super strong in short hostile. Our KD's are presumably set up this way because thats how each kd prefers to play, negotiations trying to find a middle ground didnt work out. We werent scared to war divinity, we just hate long hostiles and are not set up for them and divinity didnt want to short hostile.

Correct me if I am wrong please but isn't "no aw, no mass, no chaining etc" fake war terms? Either way its idiotic. I didn't realise how ghetto Spartans were. I mean I knew they sucked but I didn't think they sucked so bad they had to put terms on war. Is there a clause for no dragons as well?

Also they are not getting hit for fake warring but for deal breaking. As I told Bart he should have messaged zauper protector or flogger anyone really to see if breaking that cf was a deal break or not. The fact that the cf was not taken back and the fact that both parties accepted the cf is saying to both parties that it's eoa cf. If Sparta didn't want the eoa cf then they should have withdrew the cf offer. I read the logs. Bart even stated he would stay awake until cf was accepted because he would not sleep with an open cf on the table.

All this other stuff about what Sparta has done in the past is a moot point. They are going to be turned green for deal breaking. There is no reason to even continue the discussion really. Sparta messed up. They refuse to make it right. So they will be turned green. Simple as that.

Leonidas, I still don't get your complain of offering ghettoes "sweet deals". I mean, if there are any kingdoms out there that want to test themselves against an "Elite" kingdom, I would suggest Spartans. They will give you a fair deal so you actually have chance to win, they will not demolish your kingdom, and they will give you sound advice afterwards. What more could you ask for?

So here is situation 1) An Elite kingdom lies and says they are new like us, and offers us a fair and friendly war. Then they grow to 2k acres more than us before declare date and proceed to kill off three of my provinces in war. Then they taunt us with banners, and make fun of us for being newbs in the forum. I point this out to the "Heroes of Utopia" and you all flame me for being a newb and falling for their BS. Noone gets all up in arms about ghetto bashing then, do they?

Situation 2) Spartans offers us a fair war with a growth cap. No PK'ing, AW, or Massacres. Whoever is the clear winner surrenders. You actually say that they are ghetto bashing us?

Leonidas, I understand your problem. If my success in utopia was based on lying, cheating, and stealing from ghetto kingdoms I would be pretty pissed when someone came in and started teaching ghettos how the elites lie, cheat, and steal. In fact, I would get all my elite brethren together and try to kill off that jerk who is ruining the game for me. Then I would go to the forums and tell everyone how this dude is not actually HELPING the ghetto's get better, but he is swindling them and bashing them. Hey, those ghetto monarchs were stupid enough to fall for ur dirty tricks for ages, I am sure they will believe you again, right?

Bottom line there is some seriously shady people in this game. In fact, there are so many of them it actually makes me think about quitting the game again everytime I have to deal with one. I can honestly say that Spartans is not one of them, and any kingdom going after Spartans you want to avoid like the plague because they are the shady ones.

Isn't it plain to see that spartans messed up from persain's log. Spartans deserved it and just take the punishment. Wtf are there still people not happy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by beans

Arguments that it is "obvious" or that we are required to honour the "intent" of a deal and not the letter of a deal have not changed my mind, although they have strengthened my belief that we should not be messing around with **** play at all even against kds that have wronged us.

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Regardless of what you think u guys dealbroke or not, the fact is multiple kds agree with us and bart was offered a chance to make things right for VERY little damage, and even offered a war as part of it. If he didnt want the war a token offer of some honor (something your kd finds valuable) could have at least been offered. As it wasn't and he simply continued to be insulting and this is the result.

The "correct" response from bart after waving was "no we didn't deal break see i tricked you.....oh every kd agrees we deal broke, fine i'll learn from this and wont try to lie/cheat with our cf's from now on. Now whats a reasonable offer to make things right. We dont wanna war so how about XYZ honor and when the FS/Acention war is over we tell them we wont war either of them untill one of them agrees to war you" Boom thats how a real leader handles things. He could still have gone after koalas or screwd up perverts or even wared for the honor crown with FS/Acention if neither really wanted to war us. Thats how a real leader handles these things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by beans

We werent scared to war divinity, we just hate long hostiles and are not set up for them and divinity didnt want to short hostile.

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In addtion we actually offered u guys a war with ZERO hostile length. The issue we had when u guys initially approached us was we had crappy wpa and a bad spread, that combined with setups meant we had to hostile if we wanted to war you. After we waved for a cf and bart had u guys grow to dealbreak us we were 96k v 92k acres and offered to war u after a 3 days fort prep where we'd give u the button and u could instantly declare. That 4% advantage, the small time we had to pump wpa and slight size adjustments made it a really tough fight but one we were willing to try. Instead we got waved.

If you've never herd either of these things maybe thats my fault for not posting them clearly enough. Maybe its your leaders fault for hiding the on-goings of your kd and its leadership from you. Maybe you have and just don't care in which case i'll make it really clear and summarize our stance.
Your leader shows no remorse outside of not having the top kd back him. He STILL threatens to spend 2 ages just trying to screw over the kds i'm friends with unless we stop hitting you guys. Now as your kds leaders' attitude is not one of sorrow nor provides an indication of attempting to alter his behavior it is very reasonable that we demand as a kd you guys give up something of value, and then demand some terms to ensure this doesn't happen in the future. What is of value to you is honor and war wins. While we cant demand you declare and lose a war on purpose, what we can do is have you surrender a current war or use a button we've been provided while additionally requiring you to lose honor. Alternatively if one or both of those things wont happen because your leader is smart enough (and he is smart just not moral) to doge something we will have to gb/pk people to remove honor as that's all we're left with. If/when you guys would want that to end, we'd THEN want to be compensated for our wasted time by requiring harshly worded "iron clad" cf's with your kd.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ed

Leonidas, I still don't get your complain of offering ghettoes "sweet deals". I mean, if there are any kingdoms out there that want to test themselves against an "Elite" kingdom, I would suggest Spartans. They will give you a fair deal so you actually have chance to win, they will not demolish your kingdom, and they will give you sound advice afterwards. What more could you ask for?

So here is situation 1) An Elite kingdom lies and says they are new like us, and offers us a fair and friendly war. Then they grow to 2k acres more than us before declare date and proceed to kill off three of my provinces in war. Then they taunt us with banners, and make fun of us for being newbs in the forum. I point this out to the "Heroes of Utopia" and you all flame me for being a newb and falling for their BS. Noone gets all up in arms about ghetto bashing then, do they?

Situation 2) Spartans offers us a fair war with a growth cap. No PK'ing, AW, or Massacres. Whoever is the clear winner surrenders. You actually say that they are ghetto bashing us?

Leonidas, I understand your problem. If my success in utopia was based on lying, cheating, and stealing from ghetto kingdoms I would be pretty pissed when someone came in and started teaching ghettos how the elites lie, cheat, and steal. In fact, I would get all my elite brethren together and try to kill off that jerk who is ruining the game for me. Then I would go to the forums and tell everyone how this dude is not actually HELPING the ghetto's get better, but he is swindling them and bashing them. Hey, those ghetto monarchs were stupid enough to fall for ur dirty tricks for ages, I am sure they will believe you again, right?

Bottom line there is some seriously shady people in this game. In fact, there are so many of them it actually makes me think about quitting the game again everytime I have to deal with one. I can honestly say that Spartans is not one of them, and any kingdom going after Spartans you want to avoid like the plague because they are the shady ones.

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You are very elite at the art of libel... its not an art I find honorable; but rather I know it to be disingenuous. Libel, however, may work; that is until people catch on. People that employ this dark art often times have to change nicks etc.

I take English is not ur first language Khrono, cause I have no idea wtf ur talking about or accusing me of. Explain?

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ed

I take English is not ur first language Khrono, cause I have no idea wtf ur talking about or accusing me of. Explain?

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Oxford English Dictionary
verb (libels, libelling, libelled; US libels, libeling, libeled) [ with obj. ]
1 Law defame (someone) by publishing a libel: the jury found that he was libelled by a newspaper.
• make a false and typically malicious statement about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ed

Leonidas, I still don't get your complain of offering ghettoes "sweet deals". I mean, if there are any kingdoms out there that want to test themselves against an "Elite" kingdom, I would suggest Spartans. They will give you a fair deal so you actually have chance to win, they will not demolish your kingdom, and they will give you sound advice afterwards. What more could you ask for?

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The thing is their offer ISNT fair, it just seems fair because your inexperienced. Im not saying omg look u a gheto u suck blah blah blah, im saying that their offer to you is not one that puts you on having even a 50-50 shot at winning even if u see that and they talked you up like you had a shot. Let me put it to way agreeing to baby you while it might seem nice offers you no real learning experience. You dont get the sense of really how much more advantaged they were. (for example to war CR right now if i was magically handed 100k+ acres i'd need to have a MINIMUM 20-30% land/nw advantage to make for their wpa/science advantage and the nw effiency it provides them saying yea lets war fair at the same nw still probably wouldn't be even be a remotely fair fight)

For example in your 2 cases the kd 1, the one that crushed you, yes they were !#@$#@, yes they were even worse for taunting you and those pks were probubly 100% not needed. However you've now learned "elite" kds will often lie to you and then beat you to ****. Its a good thing to know, be weary of offers, be prepared for a tough fight and then remember them as you either dont want to war them again or have to be prepared to fight them knowing they may pk. A good example here is freeakstyle i wont war them early mid age because they learn in war. Learns do less damage/hit than massacres in war but are very lasting after wars. We differ in ideology and i chose not to war them early/mid age as i dont wanna deal with the drama of having to rewave them post war to recoup science if we win, or be completely striped of science and WEEKS behind in science if we lose.

Kd 2, being spartans yes those kinds of terms are basically "gheto bashing" when they KNOW their setup is strong unless it gets massacred, aw'ed or their high off/fast chaining orcs get pk'ed. While it may seem "nice" those terms actually benefit them more than you.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ed

Bottom line there is some seriously shady people in this game. In fact, there are so many of them it actually makes me think about quitting the game again everytime I have to deal with one. I can honestly say that Spartans is not one of them, and any kingdom going after Spartans you want to avoid like the plague because they are the shady ones.

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Bottom line is u said u warred us and we were nice? maybe us v Spartans here changes your overall view of us, but think back how did our aproach pre-war differ from theres. Was there less talk, less terms, my gut says we probubly said "hey lets war next day or two good?" and then let u say what worked best for you.

And note, even if they really were manipulating you or 100's of others our beef with them right now has nothing to do with that. Our beef is how they handled their cf's and post dealbreak with us. They may litterally be the nicest kd in the game but how they've handled THIS interaction is worthy of being reminded that there are better ways to handle things (perhaps how they handled you they should of handled us?).

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ed

Leonidas, I still don't get your complain of offering ghettoes "sweet deals". I mean, if there are any kingdoms out there that want to test themselves against an "Elite" kingdom, I would suggest Spartans. They will give you a fair deal so you actually have chance to win, they will not demolish your kingdom, and they will give you sound advice afterwards. What more could you ask for?

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This right here is a big part of the problem. They will give you a "fair" deal so you actually think you have a chance to win, they will not demolish your kingdom and in exchange you will not hurt their T/Ms, and they will give you sound advice afterwards which many top players have been known to give for free on IRC. What more could they ask for?

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ed

So here is situation 1) An Elite kingdom lies and says they are new like us, and offers us a fair and friendly war. Then they grow to 2k acres more than us before declare date and proceed to kill off three of my provinces in war. Then they taunt us with banners, and make fun of us for being newbs in the forum. I point this out to the "Heroes of Utopia" and you all flame me for being a newb and falling for their BS. Noone gets all up in arms about ghetto bashing then, do they?

Situation 2) Spartans offers us a fair war with a growth cap. No PK'ing, AW, or Massacres. Whoever is the clear winner surrenders. You actually say that they are ghetto bashing us?

Leonidas, I understand your problem. If my success in utopia was based on lying, cheating, and stealing from ghetto kingdoms I would be pretty pissed when someone came in and started teaching ghettos how the elites lie, cheat, and steal. In fact, I would get all my elite brethren together and try to kill off that jerk who is ruining the game for me. Then I would go to the forums and tell everyone how this dude is not actually HELPING the ghetto's get better, but he is swindling them and bashing them. Hey, those ghetto monarchs were stupid enough to fall for ur dirty tricks for ages, I am sure they will believe you again, right?

Bottom line there is some seriously shady people in this game. In fact, there are so many of them it actually makes me think about quitting the game again everytime I have to deal with one. I can honestly say that Spartans is not one of them, and any kingdom going after Spartans you want to avoid like the plague because they are the shady ones.

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First and foremost, of course the first kingdom that screwed you over are plain assholes as well. Which Elite kingdom are they? (Not that I can do anything about it since I don't play anymore) I don't recall ever saying that what they did was good, but I was writing about Spartans, not your kingdom.

Secondly, other than the fact that it isn't actually a fair chance to win (unless by fair you mean what, 20%, which is roughly the number of wars that Spartans loses based on estimates, plus the fact that these are probably against better than average kingdoms), and also the fact that offering such terms are skirting the lines of a fake war, Sparta seems to want to win or place high in honour and war-win charts not by actually being good (and say, beating other "top" kingdoms around there), but by gaming the war system (fight ghettoes 10 times, win most of them, end up high in war-wins and honour due to game mechanics - firstly how hard it is to gain honour outside of war, and secondly a war win system that favours number of wins over who you actually beat)

No, you don't understand my problem at all. I don't even play in top kingdoms nor have I ever played in them. My current Utopia job is reading the forums and updating the wiki (actually, I've been skiving mostly). I've played nearly exclusively in ghettoes, which is why it pisses me off. Top kingdoms would care about the "dealbreak" stuff, since it's their own world they've invented with their own crazy rules that change every week. I care that Spartans would make use of ghettoes to get a leg up in whatever aims they have for the age, and even paint it as being "fair" to ghettoes. I can see why to the ghetto if you've been hard done by by other kingdoms, they look like white knights. From an outside standpoint, it looks like bull**** to me.

Beans - It would be 100% illegal to say "no targeting T/Ms" in war, since non-aggression pacts are clearly not allowed. Your set of rules effectively say "no targeting t/ms in meaningful ways". Even if you truly only have well-meaning intentions, it's skirting the lines of a fake war.

Libel is the legal term for lying.
It seems anyone who stands up for Spartans gets hammered.
There are some people who make errors of judgement and say they made a shifty move and there may also be people who twist the truth a little for their own gain. I believe Spartans made an error of judgment and admitted to a ****ty move based on my experience with them.

First of all, Spartans did not just come out and offer the terms. They approached me the same way you did, I just had a different answer for them. We had quite a few back and forths about what had happened the previous war, and where I messed up in negotiations. You see, I never even thought about the shady crap you guys pull during negotiations, and how easy it was to get an advantage before war even started. Bart took the time to explain that to me so I would not fall for it again. Just like I have shown respect for Divinity, and Seagulls and others in this game that have helped me learn the new dynamic of war, I show the same respect for Spartans.

Ascension was the kingdom in scenario 1. We had very little chance of beating them, but we thought it was a good opportunity to test our progress as a kingdom, and talking to their monarch I felt it would be a fun and friendly war. Like I said before, they had 18 guys that would log on 20 hours a day, and log off for the same 4 hours everyday. We were still holding our own until they started PK'ing. So yes, Persian I did learn that elite kingdoms will lie, and I learned that they will PK too. But what I also learned is the Utopian Police has no problem with this whatsoever. Elites bashing ghetto's is ur thing, right? Some do it nicely, like you and Seagulls, and others are complete dicks about it like Ascension, but you all do it. That is why no one got too pissed when I mentioned this before. That is why the "White Knights" did not get all up in arms to raze the might Ascension. I mean I did not put in an acre cap, so they had every right to grow. I did not say "no PK" so they had every right to kill off three of my provinces. They did nothing wrong, right? Is that what ur saying, Persian?

Now here is the thing. Let someone dealbreak and ELITE kingdom and see what happens. I guarantee you that Spartans did not inflict the kind of damage to Divinity that Ascension inflicted on us. I guarantee you that Spartans was not as rude and disrespectful to Divinity as Ascension was to us. None of you said a thing to Ascension for what they did to us, but all of you gather together to go after Spartans WHILE THEY ARE IN WAR!! This is why I lost respect for you Persian. You and your buddies act like you fight for what's right, but you don't. You just fight for what's right for you, and that makes you hypocrites and bullies. And Leonidas, when I see you actually chastise someone who is truly ghetto bashing, then your posts wont be such a fricken joke to me.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ed

First of all, Spartans did not just come out and offer the terms. They approached me the same way you did, I just had a different answer for them. We had quite a few back and forths about what had happened the previous war, and where I messed up in negotiations. You see, I never even thought about the shady crap you guys pull during negotiations, and how easy it was to get an advantage before war even started. Bart took the time to explain that to me so I would not fall for it again. Just like I have shown respect for Divinity, and Seagulls and others in this game that have helped me learn the new dynamic of war, I show the same respect for Spartans.

Ascension was the kingdom in scenario 1. We had very little chance of beating them, but we thought it was a good opportunity to test our progress as a kingdom, and talking to their monarch I felt it would be a fun and friendly war. Like I said before, they had 18 guys that would log on 20 hours a day, and log off for the same 4 hours everyday. We were still holding our own until they started PK'ing. So yes, Persian I did learn that elite kingdoms will lie, and I learned that they will PK too. But what I also learned is the Utopian Police has no problem with this whatsoever. Elites bashing ghetto's is ur thing, right? Some do it nicely, like you and Seagulls, and others are complete dicks about it like Ascension, but you all do it. That is why no one got too pissed when I mentioned this before. That is why the "White Knights" did not get all up in arms to raze the might Ascension. I mean I did not put in an acre cap, so they had every right to grow. I did not say "no PK" so they had every right to kill off three of my provinces. They did nothing wrong, right? Is that what ur saying, Persian?

Now here is the thing. Let someone dealbreak and ELITE kingdom and see what happens. I guarantee you that Spartans did not inflict the kind of damage to Divinity that Ascension inflicted on us. I guarantee you that Spartans was not as rude and disrespectful to Divinity as Ascension was to us. None of you said a thing to Ascension for what they did to us, but all of you gather together to go after Spartans WHILE THEY ARE IN WAR!! This is why I lost respect for you Persian. You and your buddies act like you fight for what's right, but you don't. You just fight for what's right for you, and that makes you hypocrites and bullies. And Leonidas, when I see you actually chastise someone who is truly ghetto bashing, then your posts wont be such a fricken joke to me.

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what? ascension is bad cos your provs died in war? jeez spartans, just stfu and stop making yourselves look even worse and worse..

Yeah that's it, Lord. Our provinces just died in war. It had nothing to do with you guys knowing when our provinces logged off and went to work or went to sleep, then just sending in 15-20 massacres and kidnapping them, right? Still trying to sell that whole, "We did not PK you, your guys just died" crap, eh? Don't worry man, you elite buddies bought it so the "White Knights" won't touch you. Besides, they are too busy punishing that deal breaking Bart. lol

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ed

Yeah that's it, Lord. Our provinces just died in war. It had nothing to do with you guys knowing when our provinces logged off and went to work or went to sleep, then just sending in 15-20 massacres and kidnapping them, right? Still trying to sell that whole, "We did not PK you, your guys just died" crap, eh? Don't worry man, you elite buddies bought it so the "White Knights" won't touch you. Besides, they are too busy punishing that deal breaking Bart. lol

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You just like to spew libel and to practice character defamation.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ed

Yeah that's it, Lord. Our provinces just died in war. It had nothing to do with you guys knowing when our provinces logged off and went to work or went to sleep, then just sending in 15-20 massacres and kidnapping them, right? Still trying to sell that whole, "We did not PK you, your guys just died" crap, eh? Don't worry man, you elite buddies bought it so the "White Knights" won't touch you. Besides, they are too busy punishing that deal breaking Bart. lol

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So you went to war and are crying that some of your provinces were killed in that war? Don't go to war then. It is pretty simple.

The situation here is that Spartans made a deal and did not honour it. Just like the real world, there are consequences otherwise deals are meaningless.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ed

Yeah that's it, Lord. Our provinces just died in war. It had nothing to do with you guys knowing when our provinces logged off and went to work or went to sleep, then just sending in 15-20 massacres and kidnapping them, right? Still trying to sell that whole, "We did not PK you, your guys just died" crap, eh? Don't worry man, you elite buddies bought it so the "White Knights" won't touch you. Besides, they are too busy punishing that deal breaking Bart. lol

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We have killed quite a few provinces in war as it helps with an attacker or a tm dies. Thats 1 less province to deal with. Its a normal war strategy.

Uhh Khrono, I think it is you that is practicing character defamation. You are accusing me of lying about someone, but you wont say who or what the lie is. Instead, you just call me libel.

And Runefire, you need to catch up to the conversation bro before commenting, otherwise you just sound like an idiot. There are like 5 pages of people explaining how Spartans made a deal and did not honour it, but thanks for making that clear for those with a learning disability. lol

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ed

Uhh Khrono, I think it is you that is practicing character defamation. You are accusing me of lying about someone, but you wont say who or what the lie is. Instead, you just call me libel.

And Runefire, you need to catch up to the conversation bro before commenting, otherwise you just sound like an idiot. There are like 5 pages of people explaining how Spartans made a deal and did not honour it, but thanks for making that clear for those with a learning disability. lol

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I am following along just fine thank you. Maybe you need to catch up though, because then you would understand why no one cares about your ghetto war. Provinces die all the time, boohoo.