Kingdom NW disparity affect gains

I think the rest part of my post showed that I understand what the concept of hitting someone out of range is, my question was why you would waste the hits and time to do this on every province that hits you. It helps to read a sentence in context, maybe one day youll understand.. who knows..

Hitting someone out of range takes a whole lot more attacks than your average triple retal or so. Not to mention that you are sacrificing growth. You must reduce the province well below your KDs smallest province while the province you are targeting has GB protection and is hitting your provinces. This takes much time and effort and it is a complete waste on most provinces since there is no reason to target them this way and thus is not used very often.

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A lone province isn't a threat to a top KD.

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That is just blatantly wrong, and is exactly the opposite. A lone province is a huge threat to a top KD. The lone province hits a province into the top KD for max gains. The top KD retals the lone province, but with 60% gains because of KNRG. The lone province hits another province into the top KD for max gains. The top KD retals a second time the lone province, but with 50% gains because of KNRG and little GB protection. It keeps going for a while. After a few hits, the lone province can keep max gains all the time, but the top KD hits with 10% or less gains because of KNRG and extreme GB protection. After a short while, it can take 10 or more retals just to even out the losses for the top KD.

A top KD cannot do anything against a loner with good offense and Guardstations. Pretty much all the time the top KD has to negociate for a CF or eat up the hits without saying anything.

This is because of the dumb KNRG and GB protections.

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Also as a side note, kingdom related nw gains is actually only reduces to a max of 33% reduction, so its not the 60% toadi says.

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OK, 60, 67, not a big difference regardless. I did not say 60% reduction, just 60% of the gains. When this stacks with GB protection, it goes down very fast regardless.

Toadi a lone province can take acres from your KD but he's not a threat to you, where that quote is taken from I was explaining that top KDs don't go around taking lone provinces down for no reason. It's true that a loner can take acres by abusing GB protection (which is the real problem, not KNRG).

Anyway such a situation is a 25 to one game, the top KD often is in a position where it can make use of its hybrids to force a CF. It's not an ideal situation but KNRG isn't really the problem.

AFKain
yea that works raki, but it fails when you have stragglers/smallies in ur kd who will eat the blunt of the solo nub's retals.

Ay. which is why you should always take care of those nublars before its too late. And one of the reasons why warring is so nasty. Once someone is slowed down enough they eat retals and you end up spending 10x as much resources to get them back than you wouldve if you had fixed it earlier :P

You can only hit em outta range so far while trying to grow ur biggies.
yeah.. luckily enough not many people retal in first place.. those that do you take care of later when you cant really random anymore and might aswell powerplay some people ;)

my question was why you would waste the hits and time to do this on every province that hits you.
one day youll understand..

Hitting someone out of range takes a whole lot more attacks than your average triple retal or so.
depends on what range youre hitting them in first place. either way sooner or later you end up in situations were retalers have to be dealth with because tehre really is no one else you want to attack anyway.

This takes much time and effort and it is a complete waste on most provinces since there is no reason to target them this way and thus is not used very often.
Its not used very often because a) not many retals b) not many kds are in a position where they "need" to do it.. and as i said, you dont really need to explain anything.. i think i got that part of the game covered..

Toadi a lone province can take acres from your KD but he's not a threat to you,
Thats exactly why hes a threat. He can mess with your growth. (if you dont care about growth it doesnt matter obviously)

I was explaining that top KDs don't go around taking lone provinces down for no reason.
The reason is that you need their land. once someone starts to retal theres no telling he will stop attacking you either, so if you cant deal him out you might have to take him out. (were talkin about provs ~70-75% of avg nw here.. if even that)

It's true that a loner can take acres by abusing GB protection (which is the real problem, not KNRG).
ofc GB prot is the real ***** in the situation, but knrg hardly helps the larger kd out.. after all you need to do more hits to get same result..

the top KD often is in a position where it can make use of its hybrids to force a CF
wtf does hybrids have to do with it? not like pure attackers wouldnt be just as able to do the same, heck theyd have more raw power and would be able to powerplay him easier.

Toadi
A top KD cannot do anything against a loner with good offense and Guardstations. Pretty much all the time the top KD has to negociate for a CF or eat up the hits without saying anything.

well, nothing other than dropping them out of range cause theres no other hits to be made anyway.. sooner or later you need those acres even if getting them is *****y.. unless you havent started dicing by then.

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Originally Posted by RAKIdaRHINO

Toadi
A top KD cannot do anything against a loner with good offense and Guardstations. Pretty much all the time the top KD has to negociate for a CF or eat up the hits without saying anything.

well, nothing other than dropping them out of range cause theres no other hits to be made anyway.. sooner or later you need those acres even if getting them is *****y.. unless you havent started dicing by then.

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this is on gen
April 9th, YR11 giruvegan (XX:XX) invaded Aunt Dora (YY:YY) and captured 907 acres of land.

a 1.3 mil dwarf (7000 acres) hitting a 1.3 mil (7300 acre) human
3 mil kd, hitting a 8 mil kd, dwarf has ~5-6% gains science

the retal:
April 13th, YR11 Aunt Dora (YY:YY) captured 430 acres of land from giruvegan (XX:XX).

he has ~15% GS @110% and no GBP

its not easy at all to stop a single province!

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Toadi a lone province can take acres from your KD but he's not a threat to you

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In my book a threat is someone who can take cares from my KD. It is an even bigger threat if I have to hit 5 or more times just to match a single of their hits. Lone provinces are huge threats for top KD.

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It's true that a loner can take acres by abusing GB protection (which is the real problem, not KNRG).

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KNRG and GB protection stacks up perfectly to pretty much nullify top KD gains. GB protection can get gains down to 20%. KNRG to 67%. Both stacked, the loner suffers 13% of normal losses. That's 8 hits to make up for 1 of their, instead of only 5 without KNRG. Nevertheless you are correct, GB is the most important factor here.

Nevertheless, when doing a single hit, you have to make sure that nobody in the KD you target can retal you, mostly because of KNRG. If I find a juicy T/M I will always hit there, unless there is an attacker as backup (at least for a while). Since you do not want to find someone who can retal you, then you have to go deeper in NW - KD and province wise - to find safe hits. If KNRG were removed, I could gamble on a hit of the T/M, because at worst I risk losing what I grab. Problematic, but not too bad. Because of KNRG, a KD mate could lose 150% of what I grab, and that's not an option. If KNRG was removed I'd bottomfeed way less than what I do when whoring.

well, ultimately, GS, gb protection and kd relative nw is multiplied as far as I know, so everything contributes to the equation. GB protection atm is definitely too strong as it is way too easy to go deep into it and the protection is well, strong :p

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Also, the NW range for war declaration should be reduced to perhaps 80-120% to discontinue fake wars.

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signs



right now the NW disparity effects punishes the larger kingdom, this is true
play around with angel, swap panels if you have to and you will see that it is true

Example:

province A from kingdom 1 is 1500 acres and has a networth of 170000
province B from kingdom 2 is 1500 acres and has a networth of 170000
kingdom 1 has a combined networth of 2800000
kingdom 2 has a combined networth of 2600000

approximate gains for province A are between 112 and 137 acres
approximate gains for province B are between 146 and 179 acres


problem is though is that this socalled punishement isn't a punishment, it is at best a discouragement, since we all know that bigger kingdoms in networth always have more bigger provinces in terms of networth and nearly always in size of acres aswell.

Since acres is the foremost determinant of population size it is also the determinant of army size and since that is ultimately one of the foremost reasons that determines the outcome of the war, then there should be something done against abuse.

Now a good punishment of this abuse would be hard to implement, so lets just banish it alltogether by decreasing the networth range.

There are indeed many kingdoms that abuse the current situation, though I have to say not many of them are top kinghdoms, most who abuse it are however alliance kingdoms. HaJ (yes HaJ again, I'm getting tired of mentioning them time and again, but heck they are such an perfect example, due to them being the most evil alliance ever) is a particularly known for using war multies and other despeicable tactics (that i will not dwell into further) that lures or forces kingdoms (mostly ghettos) into wars they cannot win. I also seen AA use some of tactics of HaJ now, something I don't particularly like to see.


so yeah I am in favor of narrowing the networth range, I would narrow it down to 25%, not 20% though.

Here is why 25%.

Most normal kingdoms are in the range of 6 million. 50% of that is 3 million, which is basically ghetto, now we can all agree (at least those with some sense and morals), that battling a ghetto should not be done, because they are at least 2 classes below a normal kd and are sure of defeat.
25% lower you get your average lower tier kingdoms, they usually are not good, but they are not ghetto either. Potentially (though in practice rarely, I'd have top admit that), they can still win a war if they are good and active according to some guidelines (there is still a lot of kingdoms that use acre gains as a way to determine a victory, yes yes i know, but still), since it is possible for a normal kingdom to have a bad moment, king getting slacks on strategy, too many inactives, too many T/M's, etcetera, then there is also a way for this kingdom that by norm is a class lower to still be able to win. That difference in class I reckon is about 25% of a good standard warring kingdom.

20% is too narrow,
25% is doable,
50% is too much and prone to abuse

and 25% is still enough to give alliances like HaJ an headache (they haven't got enough kingdoms for that) and that is something I can always support.

removing honor is a better way to prevent people tricking ghettos into warring then reducing war range, what happens if a kd 30% larger then me waves me?

i can't war them

thats bull for good kds

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Originally Posted by goodz

removing honor is a better way to prevent people tricking ghettos into warring then reducing war range, what happens if a kd 30% larger then me waves me?

i can't war them

thats bull for good kds

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you'd run into problems with this especially when it's a bank kd vs a non-bank kd, easily abusive.

Raki if you would stop with your god awful quoting system you might be able to get your quotes right and they might even be readable. Kindly stop affixing my name to someone else's quotes.

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Originally Posted by RAKIdaRHINO

depends on what range youre hitting them in first place. either way sooner or later you end up in situations were retalers have to be dealth with because tehre really is no one else you want to attack anyway.

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Of course it depends on this but it is rather foolish to think that someone who hits your KD is going to be half your smallest guy's size already.

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Originally Posted by RAKIdaRHINO

Its not used very often because a) not many retals b) not many kds are in a position where they "need" to do it.. and as i said, you dont really need to explain anything.. i think i got that part of the game covered..

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You obviously didn't have this part "covered" when you just a few posts ago claimed that it is as big a part of the reason KDs retal as punishment is.

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Originally Posted by RAKIdaRHINO

wtf does hybrids have to do with it? not like pure attackers wouldnt be just as able to do the same, heck theyd have more raw power and would be able to powerplay him easier.

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You see, the tricky thing with them hybrids is that they do more than one thing, that'd be what makes them different from your standard attacker. These other things are usually stuff like NS and FB and such, as it happens those weapons can be used once the guy you want to force CF with goes unfriendly. I don't think I need to explain it any further, right? It is 25 to 1 so the t/m advantage is usually overwhelming.

ok for those that say they dont have kingdom networth differances here

i was orc last age had 10% milatary sci hit into a kingdom about 1 mil smaller for a random land grab he was slightly bigger networth than me and i took 232 acres. he didn't have gangbang protection and not much military sci, yet when he hit back he took 250 acres from me.. If there isn't a networth diffance for kingdoms then what is with those gains i got from him and he took from me.

yes we know jtwirkus, well atleast those of us who have made use of the system and those who have tried to overcome it. which seems to be only a few people... maybe if the big guys in ghettos took up offense and stoped focusing on defense other people would know more about it.

Have anyone considered the fact that most ghettoes LIKE that their overgrown provinces get whacked down? It's actually helping keep the provinces closer in nw...

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Originally Posted by AFKain

Raki if you would stop with your god awful quoting system you might be able to get your quotes right and they might even be readable. Kindly stop affixing my name to someone else's quotes.

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/signed

On the topic, I don't think it's unfair that big provinces in ghettoes get some measure of protection. Being able to achieve something in a weak kingdom is part of the game for a large number of players, it should be possible. But it gets problematic when it allows those giants to actively prey on top kingdoms specifically because they have a weak kingdom. I think the suggestion above of making the protection go both ways (ie. similar to province topfeeding and bottomfeeding penalties) might do the trick.

never said it was greenie, so why quote me? =)

AFKain
Raki if you would stop with your god awful quoting system you might be able to get your quotes right and they might even be readable. Kindly stop affixing my name to someone else's quotes.
my bad, no idea why that happened.. havent happened before.. and obviously wasnt intentional :)

Of course it depends on this but it is rather foolish to think that someone who hits your KD is going to be half your smallest guy's size already.
obviously not half, that doesnt give any gains.. 70-75% nw is more likely..

You obviously didn't have this part "covered" when you just a few posts ago claimed that it is as big a part of the reason KDs retal as punishment is.
Its not punishment, its about making sure they cnat mess with you anymore. As for whoring ive been pretty much in the top since oop..

You see, the tricky thing with them hybrids is that they do more than one thing,
No **** sherlock. Still fail to see how the hybrid role plays into the bottomfeeding game.

hese other things are usually stuff like NS and FB and such, as it happens those weapons can be used once the guy you want to force CF with goes unfriendly.
And how are you gonna get ops from one loner retaling you? Even if he was able to make enough hits you dont want the same guy to retal you more than once anyway, which is why you want to make sure that doesnt happen..

It is 25 to 1 so the t/m advantage is usually overwhelming.
Except that hes the one having the ops, not you. Sure, it protects you some, but thats about it. Going hybrid has very little to do with any offensive part of the bottomfeeding game.

Sigh, you've taken my reasoning about hybrids totally out of context. Show me somewhere where I say that top KDs go hybrids so they can bottomfeed... That was taken from my conversation with Toadi about the strength of a KD compared to a lone province.

About hitting provinces down you're still wrong, you keep switching between this being the thing that everyone does and it not being used much like you can't decide. GB protections prevents downtaking to a great extent, it takes a whole lot of effort and isn't worth it very often.

That was taken from my conversation with Toadi about the strength of a KD compared to a lone province.

ah well, i just dont see the relevance in that context either, but sure.. lets drop it.

About hitting provinces down you're still wrong, you keep switching between this being the thing that everyone does and it not being used much like you can't decide.

Que, i havent switched one bit. I said its something you sometimes have to do, but fortunately enough its not something that occurs very often. And yes, gbprot prevents it alot, never questioned that.

So baisicly, KNRG or no KNRG, To whore u need to bash those who u feed on, to make sure they cant dmg ur kd anymore and to take theyr acres ofc.
If u remove KNRG, then it will speed up bashing and whoring.

Id say make it work both way and make it stronger.
Solo province can still change hes targets, so its still good ;)

kingdom relative gains is a good thing, encourages kingdoms in top to wave each other, and greatly helps solo players. Soloing last age i would find others my size hitting me for half as much as I hit them, with GB protection my single province coudl gain acres fighting off 2 provinces in a large kingdom. But is this a bad thing? If the KD really wants and your stubborn they can take you down but its a fair bit of work,

goodz
kingdom relative gains is a good thing, encourages kingdoms in top to wave each other, and greatly helps solo players.

Why on earth should solo players be helped? What good do they do to the game really?

But is this a bad thing? If the KD really wants and your stubborn they can take you down but its a fair bit of work,

Yes, you should play for your kd in this game.

Skeleton
To whore u need to bash those who u feed on, to make sure they cant dmg ur kd anymore and to take theyr acres ofc.

You dont really need to, and you really dont want to.. but sometimes you basically "have" to. :)

Raki and others are correct. Kingdom-relative networth gains has existed for a very long time, and should be removed for the benefit of all who play the game.

why does bottomfeeding need a boost?

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Originally Posted by Nexus

hmm :p I've played 32 ages and don't remember it being implented .. but as i said, not much of a ghetto basher

hehe

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around age 32 there was a massive movement from the Utopian community to remove KNRG (Kingdom Networth Relative Gains) from war. This was accomplished and in-war KNRG was removed.

However, KNRG has been in-place for quite some years. I believe it was implemented sometime in the early 20 ages.




Poei -
The reason it seems that 15 mil kd has no problem hitting a 7 mil kingdom isn't because the gain isn't affected, but because usually the 7 mil kingdom cannot or will not retaliate, and in the eyes of most of these bigger kingdoms, these acres come without consequence, since they can essentially bully the 7 mil kingdom if retaliation should ensue.

goodz
its not about giving bottomfeeding a boost, its about not giving solo provinces a boost since this is a kd game. simple as that. if people start playing for their team bottomfeeding is harder by default..

How about just disallowing hits based on kd nw disparity altogether, and calculate gains based on province size disparity?

15m nw kd can only hit provinces in 12-18m nw kd's.

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Originally Posted by quinnteh

How about just disallowing hits based on kd nw disparity altogether, and calculate gains based on province size disparity?

15m nw kd can only hit provinces in 12-18m nw kd's.

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so, why cant i be in a 15 mil kd, and average prov size for a 23 proc kd, ~650k nw and hit the nice 600k nw T/M in a 4 mil kd who has outgrown his kd for free land?

Because there is no way in Utopia that the 600k nw T/M can safely get you back for it, which is unfair.

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Originally Posted by quinnteh

Because there is no way in Utopia that the 600k nw T/M can safely get you back for it, which is unfair.

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of course not, he's a T/M, and thats the risk he runs for not running any offense!
if he was an attacker, i would think twice before hitting him =)

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Originally Posted by _greenie

of course not, he's a T/M, and thats the risk he runs for not running any offense!
if he was an attacker, i would think twice before hitting him =)

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This isn't about him and you though, it's about how there's nobody in his kingdom who can hit back on his behalf. If you're hitting a TM in a bigger kingdom, at least there's a chance of that happening.

quinnteh
thats retarded.. why should people that play for their kd be punished and people that dont play for their kd be helped? if you and your kd cant back up the land you have you deserve to lose it. him not being able to hit back isnt unfair, he or she chose to be significantly larger than everyone else and paid the price.. this isnt a game of snuggles and kisses.. its a game where you take other peoples land and the one that takes the most land ends up bigger..

wusup with the forums lately; its all hate for bottomfeeders and traders - both of whch are natural progression for the game.

its the result of omac listening to clueless people which brings more clueless people to the bbq.

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Originally Posted by RAKIdaRHINO

quinnteh
thats retarded.. why should people that play for their kd be punished and people that dont play for their kd be helped? if you and your kd cant back up the land you have you deserve to lose it. him not being able to hit back isnt unfair, he or she chose to be significantly larger than everyone else and paid the price.. this isnt a game of snuggles and kisses.. its a game where you take other peoples land and the one that takes the most land ends up bigger..

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Are you saying that hitting a random in a 3million nw kingdom when you're a province from a 15million nw kingdom is part of playing for your kingdom?

yea, ur protecting the interests of your kd by hitting on someone who cannot hurt you back.

quinnteh
if its a good target that i can get good acres from then hell yes. Point is, if he played with his kd he wouldnt be a good target and i wouldnt hit him in the first place. Its really as simple as that. Protecting the provinces that go solo just means more people will screw their kd over for their own personal gain.

Actually we're getting off topic. This doesn't just protect those solo provinces who outgrow their kingdoms. What about normal legit provinces who play as a team in a weak kingdom? They will be protected too. Just because this will protect that occasional solo province doesn't mean that these other kingdoms don't deserve protection from abuse.

normal province gb protection already protects the kd if everyone is at the same size like you said.

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Originally Posted by quinnteh

Actually we're getting off topic. This doesn't just protect those solo provinces who outgrow their kingdoms. What about normal legit provinces who play as a team in a weak kingdom? They will be protected too. Just because this will protect that occasional solo province doesn't mean that these other kingdoms don't deserve protection from abuse.

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its actually perfectly on topic cause you said

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How about just disallowing hits based on kd nw disparity altogether, and calculate gains based on province size disparity?

15m nw kd can only hit provinces in 12-18m nw kd's.

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and that system would protect those people, in fact, it would be the best way to grow... and hitting a bit T/M that has no attackers to back him up is the best way for MY kd to grow, cause no-one from his kd will hit me!
i think you'll find that most smaller (team playing) provs are well out of the way of top kd's by the 4-5th week, so i hardly see that as reason to implement this...
the only people who get hit by top kd's are those that have outgrown their kd