ftfy ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by octobrev
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ftfy ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by octobrev
Actually, it's 365.24 days. Even centuries don't get a Leap Day.
Fact: A tilde in front of a single quantity can mean approximately or about.
Really? I'm learning all kinds of fun facts lol
I know, was just being a prick lolQuote:
Originally Posted by octobrev
Fact: In my first draft of that post I had the sun revolving around the earth.
Hybrids are definitally useful for honor. Even KD's warring for land have often had 2-3 support hybrid provinces. They aren't as good right now simply because there isn't that many great hybrid options atm. Human jumps to mind as a potentially good hybrid race running 3.5-4 TPA and thieves dens. But would you rather have another 20 OPA and run 2 tpa? Probably...
The biggest issue for hybrids atm is that the only race with +effectivness is fae ^_^
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the basic idea with hybrid is that you attack and do ops. You can call those Undead/Merchants attackers all day long if it pleases you, but the fact of the matter is, they are ACTING as hybrids. So they are hybrids.Quote:
Originally Posted by the great kN herself
If I'm attacking and getting intel, am I a hybrid?
No, you're a faery silly!
If you have a tpa advantage over an enemy, and have the stealth after intel, you're practically obliged to run ops on him.
The point is that players should pay attention to enemy thief defenses before calling themselves hybrids. A 5 mod tpa province doesn't matter against a 3 mod tpa defense plus watchtowers, add CS on to that and the hybrid has a substantial fail rate. Training defensive thieves costs less and carries less risk than training higher tpa to compensate. Yet if you keep thinking to yourself "I'm a Hybrid, I attack and do ops!" instead of doing the sensible thing and dropping hybrid-ness, you just hurt your own effectiveness as an attacker. Basically, you have to adjust to the circumstances in order to make opping as an attacker work, and not assume that you'll always be an awesome thief without putting in investments and sacrificing a lot as an attacker.
Well don't get me wrong attackers get easyily get 30-40 opa more than hybrids getting to 110-130 opa as heavy attacker with 35 dpa 2tpa and 1 wpa aint hard
But 5 mod tpa aint an hybrid aint gonna say which will be ;)
But have fun with your CS good kd's will just MV it off and than do their thief run + mage ops than chain you down if they want ;)
It's old news that fluidity wins wars. Designate all the roles you want it will only hinder you.
Depends what you want in wars :)
I expect the same thing I always get in wars: sixty thousand acres and a cute little win on the kd page.
Not if they get chained for having a crap military, and it shows that you didn't read anything anyone else has wrote and just think "HUR HUR X MOD TPA = WIN". Your plan works great against weaker kingdoms for farming out honor, but any strategy would win. A kingdom of merely competent players, not even necessarily at your level re: organization, will be able to adapt if they have the slightest inkling of sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crypticterror
The thing that's more commonplace are heavy attackers who don't know their thief and mage power, and even refuse to run ops against a 0 tpa target because "they're not t/ms". It's stupid crap like that that costs kingdoms a lot of potential. Or players who will never train up thieves in war thinking that it's not important, including self-professed hybrids who need to do so more than others.
wether hybrids are a good choice depends on what you like. If you like to be a tm, you should play one. If you like being pure attacker, be one, if you like to be hybrid be one.
Being a good hybrid is a lot more difficult then being a good tm or a good pure attacker for sure, but it's not completely impossible dispite the changes going towards pure attackers and tm's a lot more. i'm pretty sure that is to make it easier for new players. But like some people pointed out before: in certain situations it's handy to have hybrids, in some situations they are kind of useless.
Nothing wrong with that - just makes a few equations more annoying is all. (Although the newly discovered FLT particles might be putting the kabosh on that.)Quote:
Originally Posted by octobrev
Seriously though, what exactly is wrong with starting as a "lite hybrid" and deciding which way to go a day or so into it? (Sure, if you know your opponent well that moves into the "pre-war prep"... but for most, you spend your first day or two changing your build%s anyway, cause you didn't have all the intel you needed.) As an example, I always ran (later age) about 3 raw TPA as human sage, but with mods could hit about a 9 mod. Often I'd steal horses, NS a bit, then switch to rob ops and kidnap as I grew and tpa fell. But if a kingdom had bad thief defense and I could get though on NS of some useful targets... I'd keep training the thieves, try to get up to 4 raw. The "missing" offense never really mattered then, cause I dropped my targets def so *everyone* could hit easier.
'Tis that "adapt" concept everyone keeps saying... isn't that what is meant by a lite hybrid anyway? I'm a lot less a fan of the "a/T" type halfer rogue, for example... cause it usually seems they are trying to play a super thief, but with enough offense to look like they can attack - sure, that's been dead as a good plan for a while... but it never really was too smart to start with. I figure everyone that is a "big A" knows first priority is to have enough offense to hit within range - T or M are "continuous", half TPA can still do stuff, just not as well. Attacking is mostly binary - either you have the offense needed, or you fail at the attacker role. Was that part ever really in question though?
During freeze period, this fact led me to the conclusion that the only potential hybrid possibility for this age is human/sage. Pure attacker for half the age until +120% crime science is hit, along with big housing bonus to increase maybe 1-2 raw tpa. Only 2/3 of the way through the age will I actually be a "hybrid" though.Quote:
Originally Posted by octobrev
Anyways I might regret it and wish I went pure A. Ill let you know how it works out
Quote:
Originally Posted by DDodge
Nooblet worded it well IMO;
Get intel on the kd you want to war prior, not just SoT and SoS but Surveys as well as infiltrates (0% WT and 1tpa only? oppertunity time!). If the kd your facing has high WT% and TPA along with CS then IMO Human A/t would be better swapping TD for WT or some other attacking building (WT IMO cause faes can hurt).Quote:
Originally Posted by nooblet
DDodge can confirm I am a oppertunist when it comes to thievery, last age I played orc but still went into wars with the idea of finding some n00b to kidnapp as much as possable from so I can just keep drafting nonstop and train(last age with those gains and constantly hitting multi-taps hurt my pezzie % every time), this age I have started with the same kinda attitude. No reason why attackers can't help opp when we have the strength to. Hybreds IMO need to look at the warring kd and decide if there thievery will be good enough, or look at your own strat and see if you can put some players from the op kd into a state where they are weak to your A/t's. If they can't act as good enough A/t then look at playing full attacker, swap TD for rax/WT/GS... what-ever takes your fancy. keep the rTPA for def and potential TPA def during growth but plan on being a 'full attacker'.
Sometimes tho it's worth having a few ppl who can (can not must)play hybred well as it does lead to potentially more possabilities, unless you got a kd fully active then people growing is a good possability to face during wars and those who get growth are more vulnrable to hybreds then they was previously.
For me it is a bit like chess, you don't use a knight to do a bishops job.
fyi no FLT particles, it was an error in the data transmission rate of a cable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan
http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/02/22/...duct-of-error/
:D
And goodz gives a good description of hybrid use, 2-3 is decent in a waring kd IF your winning to whore honor. But in most of the "top" wars i'd drop my hybridness unless i could become unbreakable.
You can switch between the two with a little effort. If I were human/sage I'd rather jack up my gains science on top of the usual economic sciences - Crime is situational, but Gains is always good in war. You can still get better Crime science than anyone who isn't human or sage, or at least equal.
A large factor in making a/t suck now is the lack of good gc targets due to the number of players leaving, and the new intel system draining stealth. Money theft was one of the ways a/t make their economy work out of war, and now it's significantly harder.
speaking of that i have some stealth i need to burn
the lack of players has the same effect on plunders, pretty hard to find a good one (maybe not when you are tiny). And a pure A might drain his stealth very quickly aswell since best plundertargets are ofen tm's or a/t's.Quote:
Originally Posted by nooblet
Robbing gc oow is still a huge advantage for a/t's over A's imo.
Wow, this thread went south fast. No I am not Kidding about AT, At, aM, or Am. There is no kidding about it. Those are the largest hybrid catagories, so the ones I am addressing.Quote:
Originally Posted by the great kN herself
And by situation, I meant as in kingdom setup. Not a per war situation. I guess you could change your build and add in some thieves during war, but unless you are chained that 3 raw will never be 4 or 5 raw. At 1k acres, that is 500k per extra tpa, and you are not going to be static in war, so I see it even harder to change. That extra 500k would be more useful in sending the next dragon in my eyes.
I am not saying what is better, 5 TMs or 5 AT and 5 Am. That is up to you and your kingdom to decide. But how I see it, is the more attackers, the better.
Attacking wins wars. Ops help, but you need to attack to win. More effective uniques will win a war more often than lots of ops.
Doing one thing well is easy - super easy when you pick a Race and Personality that emphasize that role (BUTTLOADS of Undead Attackers this Age).
Doing two things (basic hybrid) isn't particularly difficult, though picking the right Race/Personality combo is trickier. If done right, you can be pretty damned formidable in both roles - but still second-rate compared to a pure role. Essentially, you're weakening one strength to strengthen another weakness - and the trade-off frequently works to your overall advantage.
Doing all three (full hybrid) is virtually impossible - by the time you've divided your resources enough to be competent in all three roles, that's all you have. Competent, but not formidable. Later in the game (once Honor and Sciences become major players), an extremely skillful player might be able to pull it off. But, even in the annals of the Greats of Utopia, the number of people capable of this is minuscule.
Hybrids are both viable and useful, but they require skill - and the right combination of Race and Personality - to manage effectively.
The limiting factors are population space and modifiers, not skill.
Population, Buildings, Race/Personality Modifiers, BE, etc are all tools - the skill is required in wielding them effectively.
How to wield a building?
Hey, it worked for Dorothy! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by DDodge
No, it really is a population and science limitation, and a game mechanic which was mostly introduced to nerf a/t - CB being replaced with SoT and intel ops taking up much more stealth. Hybrids might work against ghetto players who don't think to train more than 1 tpa and don't build watchtowers, but more players have realized that this is a liability and adjusted.
Even when hybrids were a good strategy, kingdoms were learning to adjust to them and start training more defense thieves. It has always been the case that thief defenses were easier to raise than thief offenses. You can try it yourself, with thieves or mages.
Hybrids are not completely useless they have their niche in a majority of kingdoms..
Quote:
Originally Posted by TerricK
Bump +1
If utopia teaches you nothing else, you should learn that popular =/= good.
it's true. you need those **** provs in the kd to boost the self esteem of 24 others. Every village needs an idiot to laugh at. In utopia, those are "hybrid" playersQuote:
Originally Posted by TerricK
It's not an esteem boost when 5 people in your kingdom call yourselves hybrids and are really lazy.
I tried training up extra tpa and doing the thief thing for money after last war... it isn't working. :(
Stealing money for economy worked for me even though enemy kingdom were using 2 tpa for attackers too.
I play with 3 raw tpa, 15% TDs and boosted thievery science early to 70%. Means 6-7 mod tpa
And yeh we aint some random 20 province kd. Were 25m and weve won the last 7 wars in a row
Stats as avian when war starts: 95 mod opa (1 off spec/acre for dragon), 40 mod dpa elites out, ~6.5 mod tpa, 0.8-1 raw wpa
Edit. Starting opa is a bit low but the offense doesnt drop during war. It will go up when age goes forward and housing science gets up
so much hate on poor hybrids ...
typical atacker in mid tier warrin/non dicing KD will run 1-2 raw wpa, 2-4 wpa mod for defensive purposes. In comparison elf sage with halfdecent sci and ~4 raw wpa will run 9-10 mod wpa midage when sci starts kicking in and will have no issues fb'ing said attacker.
Basically a ~20 opa traded in for the ability to fire off ~50 fb's a day. Not a bad trade imo, not viable on KD level but definitelly usable for suport role in the warring KD.
a/t's are a different storry ... ppl still run them a lot but personally I feel they suck this age with the absence of tpa mods (as oposed to MF available to elves) and due to bigger population/land investment needed to make them work, also they are much easier to disable via chains than a/m's.
Long story short hybrids themself arent useless. they are an asset. Problem is that ppl playing them usually have issues accepting their oping ability is handicapped to beggin with, so they end up overinvesting population to be able to aw fae or to protect themslef from t/m's and whatnot rather than accept that by nature of the game they should only aim to op pure attackers and take ops from pure t/m's as they come and not invest additional 20-30 opa only to protect themself from MS from pure fae t/m.
Such hybrid players usually end up playing crappy provinces with 50-60 opa and are rightfully ridiculed and give hybrids bad rep.
Over the last 3 ages I played hybrid provinces twice, one was human/sage a/t boasting 100-110 opa and ~10-15 tpa mid/late age, other was dorf/sage a/m boasting 90-100 opa and 8-10 mod wpa mid/late age, 35 dpa on both, no gens accounted for either province, no high honour ranks. Economy on both provinces was crapy ofc and draft vas very high but that isnt an issue if all you aim to do is war and are just sitting on your acres between wars.
Now ppl can go on and pour shi* all they want over hybrids but provinces ran like I did with mine are asset to a KD and provide excelent suport to the war effort.
That is a great post citadela, and sums it up very nicely. Hybrids are not for every kingdom. But, for the ones that can run them effectively, they work well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramsig
So, you get your nice 7 mod TPA, and then you get destroyed with double taps by another avian - who doesn't really give a crap about your thieves, cause he has 40-50% of your mod tpa, CS, WTs w/o even trying too hard. gg
The avian doing the double tapping would quickly become landfat and as such become more open to mass ops. While the avian who got double tapped can hit back with an ambush + a trad march, all the while having a huge boost in TPA prowress. A hybrid avian A/t doesn't need to rely on economy based buildings nor aid from fellow kingdom mates in the event of being chained, simply due to the increased TPA, which also allows you to rob pretty much everyone around your networth at that point. Its all situational anyhow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avenger
Also since you don't have to pay wages for thieves, you can maintain a slightly higher draft than a heavy attacker.