Proposal to end he Awar

Both dorje and leshrak clearly believed end of war ceasefire should be open season and one should not explore in it. Leshrak states that we shouldn't have been 10 dpa and dorje initiated the whole conversation, introduced the word raze into the conversation and his stance that in his mind end of war ceasefire is overpowered has been well known ever since bishop gave a land bonus 8 ages ago.

Continually calling this simply "encouraging them to CF" could not be more annoying. They both wanted it to happen, and certainly with a single word could have prevented it. If you aren't willing to accept responsibility then there's really not much to be said

i sincerely hope there would be a resolution to this before the clock strikes midnight. neutrals have spoke to both parties for the past few days, and we're trying to broke something out.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

Did you read what you quoted? "Emeriti told him to get a cf with BB before he got farmed and suggested that he could raze to force talks if BB wouldn't cf him. "

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Fair enough, but thats the weird isnt it? Why would you do it in the first place? A person like you should know the political play in this game pretty well by now most of you in Emeriti should. The only reasonable explaination is that you didnt think it would ever come out that you were encouraging him to raze BB. Cause anyone could see from miles away that this would cause bad blood that wouldnt be just "Im sorry that we told him to raze you" ..

There is no reason for a 1on1 when so many kingdoms are involved, its more then that and some kingdoms still feel hard done by... why would they agree to it all stopping for a 1on1 between BB and Emeriti?

Im sorry but not only does that seem daft but also totally unfair for some... I do support that all this stops and negotiations can reach something that is a fair deal for all parties, i just cant see why a simple 1on1 would be fair.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

The issues that caused the deal break and gb on Emeriti were discussed extensively. The #1 prov wanted to cf Bb to not get farmed. BB was on near 0 military after mass exploring and so the #1 prov messaged Bb asking for a cf. BB read and ignored multiple ingame messages and the #1 prov then razed BB for 350 acres and messaged again offering it all back plus more if BB would cf him. Emeriti told him to get a cf with BB before he got farmed and suggested that he could raze to force talks if BB wouldn't cf him.

This is all admitted and apologized for by Emeriti. The #1 prov who razed gave BB back 2.8x the land they lost. He also agreed to BB acre caps so he and his kd mates couldn't grow big anymore. Emeriti also offered BB whatever land and adjusted cf terms or other things they wanted to ensure they were in no way harmed. Every attempt at a reasonable solution was offered by Emeriti to BB to give whatever land and other terms bb wanted to ensure they weren't hurt.

Instead BB wanted to lie and deal brake and gb into war. This is all discussed in detail. Flogger has directly said he wanted "alliance war" all along and that's why he wasn't interested in any reasonable solution. He has discussed how he regretted Absalom disbanding since it's his utopian goal to beat Absalom in an alliance war. Absalom is gone, but Emeriti has some former Absalom people so this is the closest thing he could get.

There was simply no reason for BB to lie, deal break, and gb into war here. Emeriti didn't break any deals with them, Emeriti hadn't even touched them, and Emeriti offered BB whatever they needed for their role in trying to help advise a weak kingdom to get a cf with BB.

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Allways spining the net ... isnt it truth BB asked Emeriti to pull out of crown race this age as a punishment for their role and Emeriti refused ?
You say you offered everything they wanted, but it seems to me you only offered what you were ready to give up ... there is a BIG difference between those two.

There is zero references/acknowledgment to mysterious blocking attempts vs pyro/bb that came from KD's who ended up fighting on your side in this conflict. I talked to Outsiders in warforum, their kings posts were word to word citation of your posts from these forums. No way I buy into a story they choose to war Pyro by coincidence and than were swayed by your ill fate enough to join in on the awar on your side.

It seems to me like things are looking bleak in awar and you are looking for a way out of situation while still maintaining charade of abs fairplay.
I dont see any acknowledgment of wrongdoing that would go beyond initial (minimal) one which were offered only after your council logs were outed by flogger on these forums. And any dmg Emeriti would suffer in 48hs 1v1 war is likely to be better outcome for them than what would pan out if they decisivly lost this awar.

You adress no issues that caused KD's to rally against you, you admit no to no wrongdoings, and only thing you offer is something that wasnt asked for ?
Personally I find this to be nothing short of offensive.

as a disclaimer i'll say that while i do fight in this awar any opinions and facts i stated stem from this forum exclusivly, if I was wrong about some facts thats cause i misinterpreted these forums and have nothing to do with any info that was provided to my KD by BB.

I'm really confused. SWEA did all these things and more that Emeriti is accused of. Admitted they did it, and crowned.

Where were all of you and your ethics when that was happening? Is it really about what you're accusing them of, or maybe, just maybe, you guys are having an awful lot of fun power playing a kingdom that you can't beat on your own...?

Go away Palem

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Originally Posted by Palem

I'm really confused. SWEA did all these things and more that Emeriti is accused of. Admitted they did it, and crowned.

Where were all of you and your ethics when that was happening? Is it really about what you're accusing them of, or maybe, just maybe, you guys are having an awful lot of fun power playing a kingdom that you can't beat on your own...?

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What did SWEA do specifically?

And just cause its not in the forum doesnt mean it hasnt happend, there is other channels to voice your concerns. ;)

Palem i believe SWEA used different tactics troughout the age, it was only on the last jump that they tripped up their ally, at by which point it was too late to do anything against it, and next age SWEA was no longer going for title (or the few that was left of it) and therefore was no threat which meant they were not sanctioned from age previously.

I also believe Mansoor did a lot of things people felt impressed by, and therefore was more joking finding it funny how he was able to trick the tops into letting im slide away from the different things.. His diplo was just better then average that age and wasnt caught out before the web unrolled which was too late.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

Did you read what you quoted? "Emeriti told him to get a cf with BB before he got farmed and suggested that he could raze to force talks if BB wouldn't cf him. "

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Originally Posted by flogger

jdorje 6:17 PM
if he's going to farm bour next
it's bour that should be razing them

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Emerity told bour that he should raze BB, not could.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

so the #1 prov messaged Bb asking for a cf. BB read and ignored multiple ingame messages and the #1 prov then razed BB

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He waited for a whole of 3h. Damn I'm not even on 3h call for the place that pays me my salary. Funny you should forget this bit. I wonder where he got idea to wait only short 3h while he was under no immediate threat.

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Originally Posted by flogger

cerberusv6.66 7:42 PM
give them at most 3 hours to respond
start killing if they don't answer or try to delay
imo

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It was not the #1 province looking for CF, it was Emerity leadership slapping an ex leadership player, saying he should be razing into BB eowcf if they fail to reply under 3 hours.
Note that the "command" was executed to the letter.

I truly don't know who's right or wrong in the bigger picture.
What irks me is the shear dishonesty in your posts, and how insulting they are to the readers.

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Originally Posted by flogger

Both dorje and leshrak clearly believed end of war ceasefire should be open season and one should not explore in it. Leshrak states that we shouldn't have been 10 dpa and dorje initiated the whole conversation, introduced the word raze into the conversation and his stance that in his mind end of war ceasefire is overpowered has been well known ever since bishop gave a land bonus 8 ages ago.

Continually calling this simply "encouraging them to CF" could not be more annoying. They both wanted it to happen, and certainly with a single word could have prevented it. If you aren't willing to accept responsibility then there's really not much to be said

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"Emeriti told him to get a cf with BB before he got farmed and suggested that he could raze to force talks if BB wouldn't cf him. "

It was clear in your logs that Emeriti determined hitting into end of war cf was not something they would want to do. I personally believe that a weaker kingdom/player that is trying to defend himself is entitled to use options that an aggressor kingdom should not use (but still not deal break or hit into active fights). Therefore, I personally do not automatically disagree with a solo province hitting a kingdom who was not in an active fight and was massively exploring in order to try and get a cf before that kingdom trained their military to farm him. This province asked for cf's and was ignored and so he razed adn then offered all razed land plus extra back for a cf. When you actually talked to him, he then also offered you free gc and even a fake hostile to help you prepare longer for emeriti. You really spun this into something much more than it was.

That said, Emeriti admits they were wrong for suggesting this and offered all along, well before your deal break and gb into war, to give bb extra land and things to ensure bb was not hurt.

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Originally Posted by Korp

What did SWEA do specifically?

And just cause its not in the forum doesnt mean it hasnt happend, there is other channels to voice your concerns. ;)

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They dealbroke. Used Allies to block. Convinced other people to hit their targets. Basically everything Emeriti is being accused of, plus deal breaking. Flogger and BB, as well as the rest of the mighty ethical warriors, happily stood by idly while their allies AMA were GB'ed out of contention.

http://i.imgur.com/rPr6MLJ.gif

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Originally Posted by Palem

They dealbroke. Used Allies to block. Convinced other people to hit their targets. Basically everything Emeriti is being accused of, plus deal breaking. Flogger and BB, as well as the right of the mighty ethical warriors, happily stood by idly while their allies AMA were GB'ed out of contention.

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So who were these allies?

Simians

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Originally Posted by Palem

Simians

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Man, you are so full of **** Palem its hilarious. Now, stop talking about **** you dont know anything about.

It was not clear in those logs emeriti didn't want to hit in. It was clear they wanted to hit in and not be caught.

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Originally Posted by SlightlyOverdosed

Emerity told bour that he should raze BB, not could.

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ok, when you advise someone you say what you think they should do. Some in emeriti thought that he should raze to force cf talks if he was being ignored or rejected. I don't disagree with you.

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Originally Posted by SlightlyOverdosed

He waited for a whole of 3h. Damn I'm not even on 3h call for the place that pays me my salary. Funny you should forget this bit. I wonder where he got idea to wait only short 3h while he was under no immediate threat.

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Technically he waited 4 hours. We agree this was too short. In that 4 hours though, he had his request read by the steward and ignored. He then sent new messages to all the BB prvinces who were online asking them to get a leader to contact him urgently. These messages were also read and not responded to. The longer he waited, the more time BB had to prepare and then train up. His only leverage was catching BB as early after their explore as he could so that BB couldn't just train and farm him. He offered BB extra free land from him right away for a cf when he razed. He was trying to give BB free land for a cf deal but he needed BB to talk to him and not ignore him. The raze was his method to get them to talk to him. It worked in that respect but obviously was a bad idea overall.

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Originally Posted by SlightlyOverdosed

It was not the #1 province looking for CF, it was Emerity leadership slapping an ex leadership player, saying he should be razing into BB eowcf if they fail not reply under 3h.
Note that he "command" was executed to the letter.

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You can decide to call it that but that's really not what it was. You didn't see the talk about Bour being excited to be #1. You didn't see all the discussion about Emeriti not being happy to be cf'd with "farms" when BB wasn't. The player you say commanded hits in 3h is not even an Emeriti leader and Bour has NEVER taken commands from this player. Advice, perhaps, although technically he hit 4h later after being ignored.

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Originally Posted by SlightlyOverdosed

I truly don't know who's right or wrong in the bigger picture.
What irks me is the shear dishonesty in your posts, and how insulting they are to the readers.

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And where do you play? Why is it you try and criticize my posts that actually are factual while you don't criticize the blatant lies including fabrication of fake logs by BB's side?

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

while you don't criticize the blatant lies including fabrication of fake logs by BB's side?

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Because that's the first time I hear of it, can someone direct me in the right direction to find out more?

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Originally Posted by SlightlyOverdosed

Because that's the first time I hear of it, can someone direct me in the right direction to find out more?

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For a good starting point, please see any post made by bombdigie including the thread he made with completely false accusations where he posted fabricated logs that he made.

Also for lies, I can post a number of lies flogger made this age (and many more in past ages). Leshrak pointed out one of his lies in a previous forum thread where flogger initially claimed that he didn't know who bour was when he cf'd emeriti then later admitted he did know who bour was when he cf'd emeriti. Flogger later admitted that he was planning the "awar" from the second he found out who bour was and everything he said or did since that time was just to build support and prepare for it while lieing about it.

There are also lies that some may excuse like making a deal with the intention to break it at the time he made it and then actually breaking his deal. There was also volunteering several times without being asked to state that he would not gangbang or deal break over this. He was twisting around things repeatedly about what he claims he offered to resolve this both before and after the deal break and gb started. He claims now that he did not require emeriti to agree to drop out of the top and not go for a crown when the documentation is visible in the forum and in private logs that this is exactly what he demanded in addition to other things.

Emeriti admitted their mistake in advising bour about how to try and get his cf. Emeriti offered BB free land from Emeriti and whatever else was needed to ensure BB wasn't hurt. BB also got 2.8x the land back from bour that bour took and also forced bour to be capped on acres as set by Bb. BB had no need or justification to deal break and gb into war since Emeriti had offered beyond full restitution to BB.

Now I wish I took a screenshot of our War Forums where Emeriti side clearly admits they razed into BB because exploring in eowcf is "abuse of game mechanics" just so people could compare that rhetoric with what we get from ASF in the forum.

Omg bombdigie's fake logs!!!

Btw, I've asked for a screenshot of bourreau's sent folder where he messaged 5 of our dudes. Still waiting on it, should be easy to show. Cause I don't got 5 people saying they read messages.

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Originally Posted by Korp

Man, you are so full of **** Palem its hilarious. Now, stop talking about **** you dont know anything about.

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From the horses mouth:

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Originally Posted by Mansoor

The AMA deal

Mansoor never told his kd about the deal he made with Elit about not crowning. So SWEA people never knew as Mansoor never intended to keep the deal. After strangly being put in vacation mode at least SWEA got time to pump in eowcf. Yet again SWEA was never going to keep the deal but in the deal it was written that Elit would talk to Mansoor before doing anything. He messaged 02.00 am and Mansoor saw that message and knew that if he would answer it Elit would claim the acres. SWEA had just pumped their bank and needed to get a couple of hours to get army in it. Instead Elit didn?t even write he was going to wave, he didn?t care and just waved. He dealbroke, perfect for SWEA. Now they had a reason to not dealbreak themselves. Mansoor meanwhile talked to pewpew, simians and haswell telling them that only way for SWEA to crown is to raze the infidels in AMA.

A funny note here is that SWEA basically ruined Haswells age by hitting into their war, took pewpews 15k acres as they couldn?t take them from Haswell and ruined Simians chances of crowning. Still these are the three kingdoms that were helping SWEA crown. Hilarious! SWEA then dealbroke AMA as AMA were gaining and well, it is better to act than react. SWEA climbed the ladder and now sits on the Iron Throne with the Crown.

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Totally didn't happen though.

And in what part in there does it state that SWEA were allies with Simians?

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Originally Posted by MyNameIsMatija

Now I wish I took a screenshot of our War Forums where Emeriti side clearly admits they razed into BB because exploring in eowcf is "abuse of game mechanics" just so people could compare that rhetoric with what we get from ASF in the forum.

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I don't know what random players posted in your war forum, but no, Emeriti leadership does not believe there is anything wrong with exploring in post war.

However, Emeriti does believe that releasing all your offense to explore while also having no real defense and not wanting to cf kingdoms does and even should pose some risks. In Emeriti's post wars, if they have un-cf'd threats, they don't release all their military and mass explore because there are risks. There is nothing wrong with exploring in post war or even releasing all your military if you want to.

The only question is that if you are refusing to cf a province that you will clearly farm after you train up, is it wrong for that province to hit you and try and get a cf before you actually do train up to farm him? The consensus clearly seems to be it's wrong and the solo prov should sit and wait patiently to get himself farmed once the strong kingdom has trained their military.

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Originally Posted by flogger

Btw, I've asked for a screenshot of bourreau's sent folder where he messaged 5 of our dudes. Still waiting on it, should be easy to show. Cause I don't got 5 people saying they read messages.

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How many do you got that did read messages?

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The only question is that if you are refusing to cf a province that you will clearly farm after you train up,

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Talks did not even happen. I don't play in BB but your ally acted in haste with an idea implanted by your members. If BB every said "no cf" provide it here, because atm there is no refusal of a CF until after the razes.

Lets assume everything you say is true. What really rubs me the wrong way personally is the way Emeriti handled this situation and/or handles these kind of situations in general. You see if you detected that BB is exploring in a way that shouldn't be allowed, I would be perfectly fine with it if you yourself as in your kingdom and not some third party razed BB to the ground or took whatever actions you saw fit. I'm just a nobody in this whole mess, so you can continue on with your diplomacy or whatever this is. Not that anyone needs to hear yet another opinion on the matter so I'll shut up now. Have a good one.

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Originally Posted by Korp

And in what part in there does it state that SWEA were allies with Simians?

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SWEA, PewPew, Simians, and Haswell were as much of allies as BB and their friends currently are
(although I agree that none of these things are really an "alliance")

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

How many do you got that did read messages?

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I haven't asked 25 people to search through messages from a month ago, just seems easier to take a snapshot of the page or two of sent messages at that time. There was certainly no chatter in our kds whatsapp about anyone looking for a leader.

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Originally Posted by Squee311

Talks did not even happen. I don't play in BB but your ally acted in haste with an idea implanted by your members. If BB every said "no cf" provide it here, because atm there is no refusal of a CF until after the razes.

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You are right, his messages were read and ignored, and we all agree he did act with too much haste. However, would it really have made any difference to the fundamental question if he waited longer for his messages to be ignored or if his cf request was rejected outright? If he waited 24h instead of 4h for multiple messages to be read and ignored, then would hitting and offering the land back plus extra for a cf been ok?

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Originally Posted by Palem

SWEA, PewPew, Simians, and Haswell were as much of allies as BB and their friends currently are
(although I agree that none of these things are really an "alliance")

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Actually we were allied to pew and simians that age. Pew came to me to farm out to me for a few days before finally going to swea

Im just saying bour's pretty much lied about everything so far this age, so I'd be careful hitching your horse to him saying he messaged 5 dudes, if I had to guess he didnt

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Originally Posted by flogger

Actually we were allied to pew and simians that age. Pew came to me to farm out to me for a few days before finally going to swea

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You've done nothing to answer why you did nothing to stop blocking, persuaded OOW hits, and the such back then, or as to why it is now suddenly an egregious offense of the highest caliber. It's ok if it's your allies doing it?

Edit:
and apologies for misremembering certain things.

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Originally Posted by Palem

SWEA, PewPew, Simians, and Haswell were as much of allies as BB and their friends currently are
(although I agree that none of these things are really an "alliance")

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No, but since you're a clueless nub it would be hard for you to know I guess.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

You are right, his messages were read and ignored, and we all agree he did act with too much haste. However, would it really have made any difference to the fundamental question if he waited longer for his messages to be ignored or if his cf request was rejected outright? If he waited 24h instead of 4h for multiple messages to be read and ignored, then would hitting and offering the land back plus extra for a cf been ok?

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Do you always reply to every messages you recieve within the second you read it? You never discuss kd business with your kd mates, just decide everything on the fly?

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Originally Posted by MyNameIsMatija

Lets assume everything you say is true. What really rubs me the wrong way personally is the way Emeriti handled this situation and/or handles these kind of situations in general. You see if you detected that BB is exploring in a way that shouldn't be allowed, I would be perfectly fine with it if you yourself as in your kingdom and not some third party razed BB to the ground or took whatever actions you saw fit. I'm just a nobody in this whole mess, so you can continue on with your diplomacy or whatever this is. Not that anyone needs to hear yet another opinion on the matter so I'll shut up now. Have a good one.

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Again, there seems to be a misunderstanding. Exploring in pwcf on no military is allowed and is perfectly fine. The only question is if it is also perfectly fine for a kd with no cf to hit the kingdom who is exploring on no military. Emeriti debated this and decided that it was not appropriate for a kingdom in their position to vulture BB since their kingdom could just war them after.

Bours kingdom though was much weaker but had the #1 province and a few other big ones. Bours kingdom could not stand a chance to war them after BB trained up or even fight them after. Emeriti wanted Bour to get a cf with BB. Emeriti suggested that if BB was not giving him one he could force one by razing. Emeriti did not want bour to raze BB to help Emeriti's position and only wanted Bour to get his own cf. Right from the start, bour offered BB extra free land and then even free gc and a fake hostile in order to try and get himself a cf. None of these things would have helped Emeriti.

The only reason emeriti appeared to end up benefitting from the situation is because BB refused all of Bour's offers and instead decided they wanted to crush him. As part of this, they gave Emeriti a longer cf than they otherwise planned to. It should be clear though, that Bour offered BB stuff that would have helped BB's position relative to Emeriti had BB just cf'd him and accepted it. This was not done for Emeriti even though it was done in part on the advice of Emeriti on how Bour could get himself a CF.

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Originally Posted by Korp

Do you always reply to every messages you recieve within the second you read it? You never discuss kd business with your kd mates, just decide everything on the fly?

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You read the forums enough to know I don't, but I do have bursts where I am here replying and this is one of them. You do the same as evidenced here. This stuff is all old and I've already talked about it with Emeriti.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

You read the forums enough to know I don't, but I do have bursts where I am here replying and this is one of them. You do the same as evidenced here. This stuff is all old and I've already talked about it with Emeriti.

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So, the reasonable conclusion would be that BB didnt ignore Bour as you have claimed over and over again.

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Originally Posted by Korp

So, the reasonable conclusion would be that BB didnt ignore Bour as you have claimed over and over again.

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I'm sure you know that in utopia you can see when someone has read your message. BB read bours messages but did not respond. We all agree Bour should have waited more than 4 hours. Bour also agrees he should have waited longer. Do you feel that if bour waited longer after his messages were read that then it would be ok for him to raze and offer the land back for a cf to try and get them to respond?

Personally, I respond to all ingame messages requesting a response when i read the message even if it is just to say "I'll check into it." I understand that not everyone else does this though and I am not trying to say BB was wrong to not reply. I'm just saying that not responding to cf requests when you're on no real military and big land poses risks. Bour hitting and offering all land back plus extra for a cf was far nicer than the "FSU" kingdoms that offer nothing back and refuse to cf you that kingdoms like Emeriti frequently have to deal with.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

I'm sure you know that in utopia you can see when someone has read your message. BB read bours messages but did not respond. We all agree Bour should have waited more than 4 hours. Bour also agrees he should have waited longer. Do you feel that if bour waited longer after his messages were read that then it would be ok for him to raze and offer the land back for a cf to try and get them to respond?

Personally, I respond to all ingame messages requesting a response when i get the message even if it is just to say "I'll check into it." I understand that not everyone else does this though and I am not trying to say BB was wrong to not reply. I'm just saying that not responding to cf requests when you're on no real military and big land poses risks.

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Assuming arguendo that all of this actually happened, if bour is as nub as you say he is, isn't it possible that he clicked on the message himself? We also all know that when you do this, it makes the message appear as if it were read by the other side.