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we could probably use some clarification:
on ud:
"Attacks convert Offensive Specialists into Elites" - all attack? even fails?
on wh:
"on successful land attacks" - ambush, raze also? :P, or just tm.
"Increase honor gains by generating honor in all land attacks" - again, ALL attacks? even fails, raze, etc?
Does this work both ways? Can a smaller province gain acres off a huge fat province where they would normally gain nothing?Quote:
The Attack Gains formula will include a land factor such that attacks that may have previously yielded little to no gains will now yield gains, example: a 1000 acre province with 75,000 NW being attacked by a 1000 acre province with 250,000 NW would normally yield a 0 acre gain. This attack would now produce an acre gain.
not sure..but would be crazy lol. i know we sometimes in war when chained...would have crazy high off left over as defence always first to go...would war raze massive provs we could break and then rest hits for land. not always..sometimes.. i know in war raze doesnt destroy acres but buildings only..but enough of those hits could bring down a faes nw/def or a bigger prov..even if 5x the size..the raze gains were huge in war..down to size they can be clobbered easy enough. will be even easier now with crazy high off..specially elites..but even more so with off specs that are as powerful as other attackers elites almost lol
Races
I feel as though Elite values needs to be toned down, not increased. Numbers are already inflated as is. I feel like adding increased values and +spec bonuses to every race is the wrong way to go about it.
I also believe going the route of making races less unique with shared bonuses/penalties is absolutely the wrong way to go. There's nothing exciting about bland.
Human
*Less defensive losses on humans doesn't really belong. I would prefer their niche to be back to what it also has been. Income and Science. To make that more balanced, the increased losses that's already been proposed makes alot of sense.
*They also get an indirect buff from general Elite Values dropping on UD/Orc
Orc
*Orc already has a niche with gains and kills, they can take slightly less offense and still be totally viable.
*No longer need -10% science effectiveness
Undead
*It's tough for the average UD to maintain more than 50% Elites with converts.
*Between War Hero, -75% losses and Hosps, UD could be easier to maintain than it should. Solution is keeping -66% losses
*(8+13)/2=10.5 Average value. More than Human, less than Orc. Considering longevity
Avian
*Avians already burn out quick, adding military losses would be horrible. I think a way to achieve a similar result is to have the reverse Orc bonus. (And cutting Blood Lust)
*I also think they definately need 10p elites as they already fall behind due to no stables.
Dwarf
*I think Dwarves are in a good place without CS. They were strong this age but I don't think major tweaks are the solution. Its more like other races needs to match them.
Halfling
*Needs to to be better at fighting back.
*This makesHalfer is even more susceptible to FB/MS and may be forced to run higher WPA
Faery
*Faery without CS, +2spec and -5% pop is hefty nerfs. Adding additional elite offensive power makes sense rather than more def.
Elf
I think this improves Elves niche overall.
Thank you for removing the wizard production bonus from Channeling science. It seemed this was a very awkward age for spellcaster provinces and magic, good to see things getting back to balanced on that front.
none of the changes can be meaningfully commented upon before we know the exact new gains formula. Could you provide that?
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta
Someone previously asked if this would work both ways, simply yes. The example was just an example to illustrate an easily understandable situation.
The Attack Gains formula will include a land factor such that attacks that may have previously yielded little to no gains will now yield gains, example: a 1000 acre province with 75,000 NW being attacked by a 1000 acre province with 250,000 NW would normally yield a 0 acre gain. This attack would now produce an acre gain.
^ How is this a problem in the eyes of the new devs. Out of all the crap you came up with, you wanted to make bottom feeding easier.
So in a game that heavily favors undeads, you decided to instead nerf the crap out of faeries and make it so they can no longer be a viable attacker.
I'm sure they are doing their best cut them some slack and I wouldn't be so quick to judge (it works both ways and is land based not really bottom feeding imo).
If you are a 1000 acre attacker at 75000 NW, you grew too much and deserve to lose a little. It's probably not a lot either. Why protect poor decision making?Quote:
Originally Posted by calamity
Increasing wage costs for elites across the board would force people into using a mix of specs and elites, making it difficult to run full elite on some races. This may help balance the increased and inflated offense values on some races while promoting a greater use of specialists on other races. This also increases the value of armories outside of pumping and allows for a greater build diversity. I would also suggest adding some sort of wage value to soldiers.
Rolling back the changes to wizard production will slow pumping wizards to a crawl for some races - don't think it should be removed entirely, but say 1/2 of wizard science increases rate of wizard production.
I feel like there should be more of a balance between army and peasants; something having to do with building efficiency which could also help negate the inflated offense values by preventing or making it incredibly difficult to run full elite.
Or you could grow a pair and attack your size in the first place you bottom feeder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Verminator
The Attack Gains formula may also receive tweaks to adjust the scaling of how relative net worth affects gains in such a way that further discourages bottom-feeding and promotes protecting your own land.
i would like to point out that if i where i faery, even with the bonus of forts i would only have a max of 13 def points per elite, while a undead with 15 raw off, will be on 17 off points with increased wages, and just warhorses, if other modifiers would be added it could go as high as 23 per elite, this will mean that there is no way for a pure tm to defend its own acres.
my suggestion is, to have a some setup where tms can choose to go with full defence elites, instead of having off points on a elite, this way they could compete with the heavy hitting armies, and will require another way to be taken down, making the game much more interesting, as it stands now, every tm will be completely and utterly destroyed, unless they go into some hybrid build, wich will be completely worthless with such strong heavy hitting attackers.
i hope that this issue can be adressed, maybe not this age, but the next.
Goodluck,
KoNGawain
Faeries will have plenty higher EPA than any attacker too. I don't like what you propose. While I do think it's absolutely ridiculous that an Orc/UD 30% smaller can break TMs, and that it should be toned down, I think it's even more ridiculous to have TMs have 0/14 elites being UB to any attack at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by KoNGawain
It should definately cost a KD more to bring a TM down than it does now, that way it'll be a more difficult decision. TMs shouldn't be guaranteed UB though. It should be something you work towards with ops etc. And if the opponent choose to invest their resources in bringing one down you might be able to get as much out of it in other ways.
This means this works both ways and that smaller prov actually has something to take from bigger prov who usually values its acres more, discouraging bigger prov in a sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by calamity
so hitting someone with 1.5x ur acrss but same nw will still yield 12%?Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidC
in addition hitting someone same acrss but 1/3 will still yield some?
is the acre factor additive after the relative nw one? before? are gains capped with the acre factor only kicking in when nw differential is too big?
stuff like this matters. +30% income on humans would be uselss if youd decide to remove money from the game. If you reduce general spell costs by 90%, Elf tower bonus would ve less significant. mechanics matter and should ve taken into consideration when commenting on race pers changes.
Strategy should never involve bravery. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by calamity
i dont think UD got overly buffed, who knows what the proc rate is of elites on a send. more than likely you wont see full elite armies, maybe half and half. so that brings them to a roundabout 12 elite value. and Fae got their Def upped to 10.
I think UD would be better at 14 to keep things more in line.
I think its odd that Sage doesn't have Revelation to increase sci spawn rate, but every TM persona does.
Has anyone thought about keep all specs at 6/0 and 0/6 and put the +1/+2 etc onto the personalities, might make for some new combinations. IE Rogue/Mystic have +2 dspec value, heretic has +1/+1, War Hero and Warrior can have +2 ospec value.
I also think that if you are going to have Racial Spells, they should not overlap on Personas, seems silly that if you pick a combo that is Avian/Cleric you get Double Greater Protection. Why not pull Greater Protection from Avian and make it a Cleric only type thing. Or maybe instead of giving Cleric Greater Prot, make Cleric Immune to the effects of Pitfalls (Since they are a cleric and give a buff to - losses)
More than likely? You should *never* see full elite armies, with the exception of chained provinces that release everything but their priceless elites. Orc will still achieve greater offensive output than Undead, but Undead will still achieve greater sustainability than Orc. Nothing has really changed there, the buzz is a bit excessive.
So I have a couple questions:
1. You say this: The Attack Gains formula will include a land factor such that attacks that may have previously yielded little to no gains will now yield gains, example: a 1000 acre province with 75,000 NW being attacked by a 1000 acre province with 250,000 NW would normally yield a 0 acre gain. This attack would now produce an acre gain.
The Attack Gains formula may also receive tweaks to adjust the scaling of how relative net worth affects gains in such a way that further discourages bottom-feeding and promotes protecting your own land.
So you say that you're removing the NW penalty that is made to prevent NW manipulation in order to make better gains.... and then the next statement you say that you want to add something to the formula that takes NW into consideration in gains.... Now, correct me if I'm wrong.. but NW manipulation is not only extremely simple, but it the #1 way bottom feeding happens. A massive province with a massive army razes all but farms and banks, massively lowering his NW into the range of much smaller provinces. Then they make an attack, KNOWING the defender cannot retal because their defensive army is HUGE compared to the target's offense. Wouldnt it just be simpler to make gains land-based? Out of war, the target is considered "out of range" if they are +/-30% of your land? Outside of that range gets a massive penalty to gains. That would almost completely remove all top and bottom feeding, wouldnt it?
2. You lowered the birth rate on TM races by 10%.... but LP increases birthrate by like 25%.... so this penalty is useless. I mean, what is the point in a 10% birthrate penalty anyway?
3. UD are the most OP change I've ever seen in the game. They get a 9 point off spec, which is more powerful than the dwarf, halfer, and elf leets (by far), and also makes them ambush-proof (especially for the first 3 or 4 years of the game). They dont have to worry about leet costs because they just get automatically converted, and when they are converted, they are the most powerful unit in the game. On top of that, those uber units die 75% less than any other unit in the game, and even when they do, 50% of them are automatically reawakened into soldiers. Their only nerf is -35% science? Honestly... just... wow. What is the point in being anything but undead?
4. How are NM going to effect UD/Elites? Since they arent actually trained.... would it revert them back to specs? If so, NM is going to be the top spell cast this next age.
5. So you gave faeries more defensive capabilities in their leets (+1)... and then took away 5% of their defensive strength. So you gave them +10% more defense on elites, and then nerf'd them by taking 5% away, so in all reality, they only get 5% more defense. Aside from swapping the offense to halfers, that is all the changes made to faeries. TM elites are either at or lower defensively than ALL other elites offense in the game. Why do attackers consistently get amazing buffs (i.e. Undeads next age) but TM's get screwed every age? Even with new ownership. We thought this would end with Lord Voldebishop's reign :P
6. So basically next age it will be UD attackers, Elf Hybrids, and Faery TM's.
I think Undead elites go into untrained army and gradually train.
This was not the case in the past, but would definitely be an interesting twist!Quote:
Originally Posted by MyNameIsMatija
Undead should just be immune to nightmares, what do they care?
Keep Feary +2 o spec.
Dwarf and Human need better protections against T/M if ORC and UD are gonna be super-attackers. Elf and halfer needs more chance to be creative. I don't play faerie or avian enough to comment.
Any idea when Genesis will be implemented?
I'd like to see the focus of high off pt elites shifted to racial bonuses. 15/13 pt elites are much too high, and with the unique bonuses already attributed to each race (undead low kills, orc gains, avian speed, etc) I think it would be best to lower values to around 10-11 as max and to expand on the racial attributes and that will make the strategy of race planning much more competitive. The current offense values skew the picks heavily in favour of 1 or 2 races - racial bonuses don't even matter.
I'm also a strong supporter of 72 hr protection, but I can see how this might be bad for business with new players.
Scientist Spawn rate lowered slightly - should be more than slightly. I saw people with full sci at YR 3-4.
Races
Human
Bonuses
+30% Income
Immune to Income Penalties
Penalties
-10% Spell Success
(Removed the +10% losses, they had -30% def losses this age, lets not knee jerk)
Spell book: Reflect Magic
Elite: 11/3, 1000gc, 9.5NW
Orc
Bonuses
+25% Battle Gains
Free draft
+20% Enemy casualties when attacking
Penalties
-10% Thievery Effectiveness (TPA)
Spell book: Aggression, Clear Sight
Elite: 12/2, 1000gc, 11NW
Undead
Bonuses
-75% Offensive losses on attacks you make
Spreads and is Immune to The Plague
No Food Required
Attacks convert Offensive Specialists into Elites (Only when Hitting a Plagued Province, Note: Clerics get plague, just immune to effects, so conversion would still occur)
+3 Offensive Specialist strength
Penalties
Basic Thievery (Intel Operations Only)
No Elite Training
+15% Defensive Losses
Ospecs cost 650gc
Spell book: Mystic Aura, Animate Dead
Elite: 14/0, 10.5NW (EDIT: It has been brought to my attention that this may look like making UD un-ambushable, but it is meant to be that the elites fight at 0 for an ambush)
Avian
Bonuses
-34% Attack travel time (Whatever this actually has to be to put base war time at 8 hours)
When ambushed, elites fight at offensive value (10 * 80%)
+30% Birth Rate
Immune to Chastity
Penalties
-1 General
Spell book: Fanaticism
Elite: 10/4, 775gc, 10NW
Dwarf
Bonuses
+20% Building Efficiency
Free Building Construction and Can Use Credits to Raze Buildings
-50% Building Construction Time
+1 Defensive specialist strength
Immune to Blizzard
Penalties
Can't use Accelerated Construction
+75% Food consumption
Spell book: War Spoils, Fog (Increases Enemy attack time by 20%)
Elite: 11/3, 850gc, 9.5NW
Halfling
Bonuses
+10% Population
+25% Thievery Operation Success (TPA)
+50% Effect of Thieves Dens
-25% Thief cost
+1 Stealth per tick
+2 Offensive Specialist Strength
Penalties
-10% Birth Rate
Spell book: Reflect Magic, Mystic Aura
Elite: 6/9, 700gc, 10NW
Faery
Bonuses
+40% Combat Instant Spell Damage
+40% Sabotage Operation Damage
-1% Stealth Cost on Successful Operation
-1% Mana Cost on Successful Operation
+1 Ospec strength
Penalties
-10% Birth Rate
Spell book: All Racial Spells and Tree of Gold
Elite:4/10, 1050gc, 11.5NW
Elf
Bonuses
+3 Defensive Specialist strength
+50% Spell Success (WPA)
+1 mana per tick in war
Banks 50% more effective
Spell book: Clear Sight, Fools' Gold
Elite: 9/6, 900gc, 9.5NW
Personalities
The Cleric
-35% Your Military Casualties (on attack or defense)
Immune to The Plague, and Pit Falls
Access to Animate Dead
Starts with +800 soldiers and +800 specialist credits
The Heretic
Wizards do not die on failed spells
Thieves do not die on failed operations
Successful spell casts get 50% of rune cost refunded
+20% Spell Success
+25% Magic and Thievery Science Effectiveness.
Access to Nightmares and Blizzard
Starts with +100 Wizards and +200 thieves
Access to Revelation
The Mystic
All Guilds are 50% more effective (100% during EOWCF)
+50% Magic Science Effectiveness
Access to Meteor Showers, Chastity, Mages Fury
All Acres produce 1 rune per day.
Starts with +400 Wizards
The Rogue
Access to all thievery operations, including 3 unique to rogues: Greater Arson, Assassinate Wizards, Propaganda (Propaganda can take scientists, rate would be 1/5 of abduct rate)
Thieves Dens are 50% more effective
+50% Thievery Science Effectiveness
Access to Gluttony, Invisibility
Starts with +400 thieves
The Sage
Protect 50% of scientists on abduct attack
Scientists are 30% more effective
Access to Amnesia, Revelation
Scientists start at Novice, and never drop to recruit.
Scientists gain experience twice as fast.
Additional Science Tier, Tenured Professor (Can move amongst categories without dropping rank, and immune to abduct/prop, no boost to +sci effect though)
Starts with 30% extra scientists.
The Tactician
-20% Attack Time
Accurate Espionage
Immune to Fog Effects
Access to Pit Falls
Starts with +800 soldiers and +800 specialist credits
The Warrior
+10% Offensive Military Efficiency
Enhanced Conquest range
Access to Blood Lust
Starts with +800 soldiers and +800 specialist credits
The War Hero
-50% Training Time
-50% Wages
+1 General
Specialist:
Undead - Converts some Specialists into Elites on successful land attacks (increasing this amount by ~20%), No spec credits gained on attacks
Other Races - Can use spec credits to train elites (gains 75% as many spec credits as other personas)
Access to Town Watch, Quick Feet
Starts with 800 soldiers and 800 specialist credits
I like most of the Mechanics changes, except keep Blood Lust as it currently is.
Also give Rune production its own category, as opposed to combining with food. Something Like (I know this will change based on the change in linear science
Science Caps:
• +30% Alchemy – 15 Profs
• +25% (from +20%) Building Efficiency – 25 Profs
• +15% Population – 25 Profs
• +100% Food Production – 20 Profs
• +50% Rune Production – 25 Profs (NEW)
• +15% Military Effectiveness – 25 Profs
• +100% Thievery Effectiveness – 20 Profs
• +125% Magic Effectiveness – 21 Profs
For the love of god make Anon STOP removing honor in war. I totally get why it's a necessary thing OOW to stop people form "selling" acres but why the **** is it a thing in war? Fix asap
Petition to change War Hero name to reflect its newfound niche under current changes.
Introducing, the Whore Hero!
"Anonymity will no longer destroy honor during war"Quote:
Originally Posted by Minty
Did you read the change? or?
Yes. That is from proposed changes. I am saying make them happen.
I fail to understand why selling acres is a bad thing?
You fail to understand why warring KDs dropping tens of thousands acres to fight weak KDs and get easy wins is a bad thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicus Lex Non Scripta
I havent seen it asked yet, correct me if i'm wrong:
Elf - +25% Spell Damage
What does this mean? Duration? Instant?
We see Faery - +40% Combat Instant Spell Damage has been defined but Elf is not.
Please explain?
As the proposed changes stand, I really like the ideas and the direction you guys are headed! However, there are some definite things that are going to alienate certain races.
Avian having faster attacks coupled with increased military casualties and mediocre military power is just not feasible compared to orc or undead. Avians may do better with decreased troop losses and faster attack times as their bonuses, then hit them with lower population or something else. I'd like to see Avian elites have competitive military power with undeads and orcs with 12/3 or something.
Orc still underpowered compared to Undead.. perhaps lower or remove their science penalty... idk but Undead seems a bit ridiculous comparatively. I'll def go undead/war hero as it stands as I can't see a reason not to.
Dwarves still jack of all trades, masters of none. Skilled players can make something out of nothing with them and they stay a versatile race that depends on the personality taken.
Elves having +50% military wages is a bit steep. Consider lowering to 25-30%. Elves already need to run more homes and 200% wages to keep their defenses competitive so slapping +50% wages is a bit too harsh.
Humans, halfers, and faeries all look good.
Other considerations:
Make hospitals lower the chance of contracting the plague rather than a chance of curing each tick (they produce plague vaccines just like we get flu shots :) sometimes they get the right formula, sometimes u get a plague strand they didn't predict).
War Hero - THANK YOU for making it easier for them to get honor. I often suggested they change honor buff to decreased honor loss or increased honor gained. Good job with that one.
ummmm, you are all insane.
Please make science deep again. Uncap with diminishing gains and lower spawn rate.
But for ambush you calculate def spec value.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minty
I will post my overall few of the changes latter.
These are (objectively speaking) the best and most balanced changes, allowing for a range of playable options and a proper balance between the races (I hope that since the game is now run by people who understand mechanics, we can leave the "3-4 races are useless" tradition behind us.
Avian:
-35% attack speed
+1 general
+100% birth rate
-50% damage received from FBs
Spells: CS, Fanaticism, GP
10/3 (650 gc, 10 NW)
Dwarf:
+25% BE
+1 def spec strength
+15% wpa
+35% instant spell damage
+100% food consumption
Elite: 9/7 (650 gc, 9.5 NW)
Spells: MA, MF, Gluttony, FG
Elf:
+50% WPA
+50% tower coverage
-35% def casualties
+2 def spec strength
+50% wages
Elite: 8/7 (700 gc, 9.5 NW)
Spells: PF, CS
Faery:
+35% spell damage
+35% sabotage damage
+1 mana
+1 stealth
-15% income
Access to all racial spells
Elites: 3/10 (850 gc, 11 NW)
Halfling:
+10% population
+50% TPA
-50% thief cost
+1 stealth
Soldiers 4/4
+25% military casualties
Elites: 7/8 (750 gc, 10 NW)
Spells: TW, GP, Aggression
Human:
+25% home coverage
+15% TPA
+30% sabotage damage
Free army upkeep
Spells: QF, Invisibility
Elites: 10/5 (750 gc, 9.5 NW)
Orc:
+25% gains
+25% enemy casualties
Free draft
-10% sci eff
Elites: 12/1 (750 gc, 10 NW)
Spells: Bloodlust
Undead:
-75% off casualties
Converts specs to elites on successful land attacks (15%)
Plague
No food
+2 off spec strength
Only basic thievery
Elite: 13/3 (1300 gc, 11 NW)
Merchant:
Immune to Income Penalties
ToG (creates 40-60% of income).
Artisan:
Free building/razing
-66% build time
Blizzard
Tactician:
-20% attack time
Accurate esp
CS
Warrior:
+10% ME
+10% enemy casualties (when defending/attacking)
Cleric:
-40% casualties
Immune to plague
War Hero:
-75% training time
+100% honor effects
+10% honor gains
Sage:
+30% sci effects
Amnesia
Heretic:
30% rune refund
-75% thievery casualties
No wizzards lost on failed spell attempts
+15% WPA/tpa (or 20%)
+20% thievery/magic sci (or 25%)
Nightmare, Greater Arson
Mystic:
2x guild effects
+75% magic sci
Meteor Showers, Chastity
+1 mana
Revelation
Rogue:
2x TD effects
+75% thievery sci
Propaganda, AW
+1 stealth
Revelation
As far as I recall elites on 0 def are calculated on their offense for ambushes, like offspecs who are counted as 6/0. When I think about it I dont even know if there has been 0 def elites on live, maybe that was on genesis. How would attacks in army home be counted when it comes to kills? Would they loose elites despite not contributing to the defense?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo To