But why assume when you could have asked for clarification in the thread to discuss the proposed changes?Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterShake2129
Printable View
But why assume when you could have asked for clarification in the thread to discuss the proposed changes?Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterShake2129
That's kind of the point. The fact that nobody questioned it is because the majority of people didn't know there were two separate formula impacting conversions. I'll admit I didn't know, and I've seen posts from people in notable kds calling this a bug, implying they didn't know either.Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyB
I'd be curious to know how many kds went into their kd setup discussion with 100% confidence that undead would get 1/5 conversion hitting into prosperous. Id be willing to wager the number is very small or zero.
The justifying for ops is sounded like trying to save face that i can agree upon. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterShake2129
Conversion didnt get nerfed cause conversions didnt get changed. You are still working with your faulty assumption.
Pyroblast would kill X peasants instantly and Y peasants under a duration period would be my assumption.
Im arguing against dumbing down the game, you want all the information with no effort.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swagger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swagger
Its not the games fault that you dont do your homework properly.
It's not dumbing the game down to omit information on new features. I'm not asking for the formula, just a verbal indication like "reduces elite conversion for undead," would suffice.
I shouldn't have to look through changes made several ages ago to understand what a brand new feature does. This game is enough of a chore already, we shouldn't have to cross reference and read between the lines of past changes.
Also, using your homework analogy, if the vast majority of the students fail the test, it becomes a failure of the teachers ability to teach.
Im trying to understand the apologist argument here, but its simply ludicrous.
You are saying we should not have assumed that elite conversion reduction would remain, but this would be predicated on knowledge of the conversions formula, which is not publicly available. So the suggestion is the wider playerbase should have known and made their race choices according to knowledge of a formula which is not widely available, so that they would know conversions is not related to "attack" (not even going to touch that one lol) gains and thus conversion gains into fort/prosp are unchanged"?
Amidst all of this devs are talking about bringing in new players with gimmicks like referral bonuses? How does that work exactly? You cant have it both ways. You can't cultivate an environment where only the "elite" with access to information regarding obfuscated game mechanics are able to make successful choices while at the same time trying to bring in new players.
dingdingdingdingdingdingdingQuote:
Originally Posted by Selephant
I am really the last one criticising anybody for his or her mistakes, but mistakes should be cleared.Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidC
It is really strange that you dont just write down into the "Age 73 Final Changes" thread what this new Prosperous Stance is actually doing.
Elite conversion is not mentioned in this Final Changes threat, I dont see it in the guide and it is not mentioned in the wiki. Elite conversions "utilize some of the same factors" as the gains formula and Elite conversions happen when you do a land attack. So how should players know, that these formulas are not connected? I would not even know where to look this up without asking or looking through sub-forums.
Do you really want players to work themselfs though the forum (in my case the bug section) to understand what is happening within the game?
Or the class contains 51% of Korps. HEHEHEHEHEQuote:
Originally Posted by Swagger
Fortified Stance Removed - A new stance called "Prosperous" will replace it. Prosperous stance will be almost identical to Fortified. The main difference will be: Attacks into Prosperous will have no gains penalty; Attacks while your Kingdom is Prosperous will have reduced gains of -20% (instead of -50%) and scientists will gain experience during Prosperous.
You will notice the wording here says it will be almost identical to fortified. This would suggest that the only things that changed, are the items that they note, which is then listed. There shouldn't be a surprise here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selephant
Isnt it more ludicrous that you simple assume to know the answer without actually trying to learn the answer? And you can drop the tinfoilhat there is no elite group of people. There is just people that are more willing to dedicate time to learn the mechanics than others. You have several methods of getting the information as well, you can ask in the strategy forum, you can ask an admin to clarify how will it work. But that doesnt seem to be the case, everyone just assumes "Oh i guess that should work like this but I dont really have a clue".
Utopia used to be a game that people enjoyed figuring **** out now people just seem to want everything for handed to them.
Guess they should remove elite off/def in age changes. Just say they are similar to last age but the numbers are different.
Guess they should mentioned fireballs kills peasants in each final changes, fertile lands produce extra bushes, Minor protection increases your defense! ..Quote:
Originally Posted by Swagger
The numbers werent different, if was stated that dwarf elites will have basically the same as last age but they will have increased nw. Would you assume that something would have changed with their def off values?
I honestly don't care enough to keep arguing about this. I disagree with you that making a more convoluted game makes the game better.
You're making the assumption that everyone knew there were two formula effecting conversion gains. Yes, the information was available if you went digging for it, but it should also have been mentioned in the age changes.
This game has historically been all about figuring out the formulas for everything, which should then be added to the wiki (something that's also managed by the players). Discovery is a big part of Utopia and I don't think that should be taken away. If the information about UD conversion was discovered and is already known, then you can't blame the devs for forgetting about it OR for being a newcomer to the game and not being supplied that information. That falls on the playerbase for not teaching those newcomers the underlying mechanics and for not updating our information hub.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swagger
The only thing that should be mentioned in the age changes (and has historically been mentioned) are the actual things that are changing. Based on your logic, each age we should give a rundown on every single mechanic in the game, such as the hybrid gains system and the science system.
Bottom line: Fortified was changed to Prosperous and the only things that changed with it were mentioned. The fact that you forgot or didn't know is your own fault, not that of the devs.
Thats why the game is down on its knees now but was in its prime when nothing was as easily accessible as it was now? ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Swagger
No, I am making the assumption that people that dont know or isnt sure would ask for clarification or go look for an answer rather than assume that they have the right answer already.
This is just going in circles now as I've already answered the flaw in your last sentence. You can't ask a question about a problem you don't know exists.
@Crystopher I've not asked for formulas, I've asked for clarification on age change that there IS a formula. The rest of your comment has been discussed elsewhere in this thread.
What age was the conversion formula hitting into fort implemented? Can't find it
Currently searching the forum, but it appears to have been around 2014. Here's a link to a thread discussing it; see Bishop's response from that same thread below:Quote:
Originally Posted by Swagger
Quote:
Originally Posted by makeo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
Undead promotions from all hits (Suggestions forum)
So a post by bishop in a thread in the suggestions forum three years ago is the only documentation of it? I guess you're right, it was properly documented and the only reason nobody asked about 20% conversion hitting into prosperous was because everybody already knew it! I stand corrected.
FFS, read my comment again please. It says I'm still searching forums, something you could very well be doing yourself. It's actually a pretty good feeling, searching the forums and seeing just how deeply the players have explored the game's mechanics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swagger
The fact that you've had to dig that deep and that it's not mentioned in any way shape or form in the wiki means it probably should have been mentioned in the prosperous introduction, don't you think?
Unless of course it was an accidental oversight, which it almost certainly was.
No, the fact that I have to dig that deep means that it's a mechanic that hasn't been changed in a LONG time. The fact that it's not in the wiki means that it was never added to the wiki (which means it was never put in the wiki thread to be added). Again, the only things that have ever been mentioned in the age changes are things that have changed. Prosperous is B]identical[/B] to Fortified, with the only changes being the ones that were mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swagger
Oh, btw, here's a thread from 2011 where Bishop states that UD conversions are significantly reduced from fort:
Fortified Stance & Undead elite conversion rate (Utopia Talk)
I'm done here, but I do want to thank you for the experience. This reminded me of why I fell in love with this game to begin with: explore the game mechanics, engaging with the community to figure out strategies, and delving through the forum to find answers to obscure and/or forgotten mechanics. That's a part of the Utopia experience IMO. You can continue to complain and whine about not getting what you want, but the fact remains that Utopia has always placed the onus on the player to figure out the numbers behind mechanics.
Something existing for a long time does not mean everyone knows about it, I think you're missing that part.
The formula was almost entirely masked by the gains reduction fort had built in. Removing that gains reduction removed the mask and put this formula front and center.
You can pretend like everyone knew about it and that it was common knowledge, but it wasn't as the numerous thread pertaining to the topic will attest to.
Don't confuse poor communication with entertaining gameplay.
You're right, something existing for a long time doesn't mean everyone knows about it, but the players have the tools to find out about it. I've said this in a previous post, so I'm positive I'm not missing that part.
Also, the formula has always been around, but the playerbase assumed it was linked to gains and gains reduction effects. It was never confirmed by a dev because apparently nobody ever asked (unconfirmed, but I didn't find anything after all of my searching). So people ran off assumptions until it was just confirmed by the current devs. Now that the formula is so important, you want the devs to just hand it over? That's not how this works...it's up to the players to figure this out.
I'm not pretending that this was common knowledge or that everyone knew; I'm pointing out the ridiculousness and idiocy of whining about not knowing something that you can find out on your own. It's your fault for not knowing and not bothering to try to find the answer; you can't blame the devs for that. Don't confuse ignorance with entitlement.
As I've said many times, I've never asked for the formula. Just an indication that a formula exists (without having to go back to obscure posts three and six years ago) . A reasonable person would not assume there was a conversion reduction based on the information available. The math that makes up the formula was what was on the onus of the community to determine, not the presence of a formula.
Normally age changes would make an indication like "conversions for undead are reduced hitting into prosperous" and the community would have to figure out how much the reduction was. Wanting to know that information isn't entitlement any more than wanting to know what the new elite values are.
It's needless omission of pertinent information, whether that could be divined through painstaking combing through comments from years ago or not.