Proposal to end he Awar

Even disregarding the fact that it was suggested as a tactic by emeriti leadership, the whole "bour didn't want to get farmed and needed to protect himself desperately" argument seems quite poor. The reasoning suggests that any time you're contemplating losing land upon someone exiting war, then it's okay to raze into eowcf as long as you've sent an urgent message beforehand.

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Originally Posted by Sheister

A four hour delay is a basis for determining ingored.

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Four hours? the timestamps that Bourreau posted implies he hit 15 minutes after sending them to some of our non-leader types. Complete copies of our logs show that no one in our kd even discussed some guy trying to reach us.

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Originally Posted by Korp

Yet you keep coming with the argument "Ignored" "refused deals"

Do you have some magic ability in Utopia where you can train up superfast? In the span of fours hours?

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You keep "ignoring" that BB directly refused (not ignored) Bours offers of all land plus extra back (and plus gc and other stuff too.) By Bour offering BB a cf deal and BB directly rejecting his offer, that is indeed refusing and there is no reasonable debate on this issue. And yes, I think that 4 people reading messages that requested urgent responses but none of them responding could also fairly be called ignored. I'm not saying that BB doesn't have a right to ignore cf requests from farms if they want to.

In utopia, when you are on big acres and have near 0 military, you need two things to be able to train up. First you need gc and second you need soldiers. It can also help to have armories in such situations. Every tick that bour waited, BB got more resources bring them closer to being trained up.

Bour's whole leverage was based on being able to do adequate damage to Bb that by the time they finally got trained up it was no longer profitable for them to farm Bour. Bour didn't just need to ask for cf deal a few ticks before Bb was fully trained to farm him -- by this point it would be too late. He needed to get it as soon as possible so that BB could not train up soon enough to farm him before he could do enough damage to make it unprofitable for BB. Only by having this leverage would BB have true incentive to cf him.

Are you really bad at utopia and don't understand this, or are you just trying to play with rhetoric?

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Originally Posted by flogger

Four hours? the timestamps that Bourreau posted implies he hit 15 minutes after sending them to some of our non-leader types. Complete copies of our logs show that no one in our kd even discussed some guy trying to reach us.

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Correct, only your steward read the message earlier and the core members who were online read it only ~15 min before. Still you also said you probably wouldn't have bothered responding anyway until your post war was up. You don't have any comments though on how you called bour a liar and claimed the messages never happened and then Bour posted the screen shots showing exactly what he said all along (and you denied)?

Also, considering Bour offered all land back plus extra for a cf immediately once he did raze, you still had a fine offer sitting there -- you were just forced to talk to him before waiting for your pwcf to end.

good job getting your ghetto friend to do your dirty work... Only one solution kill all abs and abs sympathizer

As far as I can tell this is how the awar started. The kid is bour/emeriti, the cat is BB

http://a.fod4.com/misc/Attack%20Cat%20Revenge.gif

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Originally Posted by Crunch

good job getting your ghetto friend to do your dirty work... Only one solution kill all abs and abs sympathizer

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He asked for a cf before hits (yes, only 4h before but his message was read and not responded to by the steward.) He then razed and offered all land that he razed back to BB plus extra land if they'd just cf him. They refused. He then offered all land, plus extra, plus free gc and a fake hostile to prep for Emeriti. They refused.

This is not doing anyone else's dirty work, nor is it any FSU. This is trying to get a cf for himself without harming BB.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

You keep "ignoring" that BB directly refused (not ignored) Bours offers of all land plus extra back (and plus gc and other stuff too.) By Bour offering BB a cf deal and BB directly rejecting his offer, that is indeed refusing and there is no reasonable debate on this issue. And yes, I think that 4 people reading messages that requested urgent responses but none of them responding could also fairly be called ignored. I'm not saying that BB doesn't have a right to ignore cf requests from farms if they want to.

In utopia, when you are on big acres and have near 0 military, you need two things to be able to train up. First you need gc and second you need soldiers. It can also help to have armories in such situations. Every tick that bour waited, BB got more resources bring them closer to being trained up.

Bour's whole leverage was based on being able to do adequate damage to Bb that by the time they finally got trained up it was no longer profitable for them to farm Bour. Bour didn't just need to ask for cf deal a few ticks before Bb was fully trained to farm him -- by this point it would be too late. He needed to get it as soon as possible so that BB could not train up soon enough to farm him before he could do enough damage to make it unprofitable for BB. Only by having this leverage would BB have true incentive to cf him.

Are you really bad at utopia and don't understand this, or are you just trying to play with rhetoric?

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While you ignore the fact that it was your kingdom that suggested that he should raze your enemy kingdom to force a CF deal? :D ... No, I didnt ignored that part, but what you been claiming initially that due to them not responding fast enough for your taste they ignored and refused all deals. I would also refuse a deal with someone that just razed one of my provs, especially someone that has pulled this kind of behaviour previously and is friends with my top contender.

You must have some magical ability for sure, cause even with soldiers, gold coins and armouries it would take some time to train up.

The leverage lies in the threat of razing not actually razing. :) Or if the fact that you possed the training time of 5 hours which you seem to think is possible..

Im pretty nub yea :) It doesnt change the fact that you have repeated the same content for 21 pages now like a mantra.

It seems the general consensus is that binding deals matter, but everything else is fair game (farm wars, alliances, rogue provinces).

Absalom vs Bbsalom. Bring out the popcorn!

(Yes, it does seem like any logical, rational, diplomatic end to this conflict is impossible, and with that any decent competitive framework for the game.)

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Originally Posted by Swagger

As far as I can tell this is how the awar started. The kid is bour/emeriti, the cat is BB

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Not quite swagger although nice cat gif.

ASF - I'm sorry but please explain something to me I don't quite understand, it may sway my kingdom into action...

Question:
So are you saying it's ok from now on to hit into opponents EoWCF if they look to have gained a little too many acres for the kingdoms liking... and letting them train that acres up peacefully would put my kingdom at risk when they come out?

So can I start hitting into EoWCF at will, to protect my own kingdom? I think I'll start hitting all those landfat delicious targets just finishing their wars while their armies are depleted...

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Originally Posted by Leonidas

It seems the general consensus is that binding deals matter, but everything else is fair game (farm wars, alliances, rogue provinces).

Absalom vs Bbsalom. Bring out the popcorn!

(Yes, it does seem like any logical, rational, diplomatic end to this conflict is impossible, and with that any decent competitive framework for the game.)

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Emeriti's side is against deal breaking and has made offers to end this and directly return to a decent fair competitive framework. It's BB that initiated this and refuses such offers.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

Your deal was made after flogger had deal broke Emeriti into their war and others had joined on both sides to help. Your kingdom said they would not join the awar as part of the premise of the deal. So what you say here is wrong.

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It was made during the beginning of this, yes, but long before we joined. The premise of the deal was never us joining or not joining the awar, it was a statement of our position at the time.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

In the sn on Meep, they had approximately 60 razes on Pyro and one trad march outside the awar. They had more razes before this also and their meter on Pyro was maxed. The one outside hit was a mistake and had already been apologized for to the kingdom they hit. This one hit among 60+ razes is a bs excuse and you know it. Why do you need to try and make up false reasons for what your kingdom did?

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I leave the need and use of false reasons and excuses for others who thrive so well on them. But please do attempt to make all of utopia look retarded by saying that x:x Monarch hits into Sleepy, a kd we all thought was out of the awar too, by accident...

Also, how should we feel about Sleepy joining the awar, they were neutral from the beginning and from your logic, none can change their stance once they publicly state at least one time they wont join the awar. I'll be expecting (hopefully not in vain) for some coherence in behaviour and future replies.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

At the time we worked out the Meep deal you assured us that you would keep all of your cf deals and that you waved them and not Emeriti because you had a cf deal with Emeriti. This lie you told about keeping all deals was central to you being able to trick us into you getting two free waves on Meep to cf them and then stay out of the awar. Instead you just fort pumped the new land and jumped right back in.

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When we negotiated with you as the representative of all the kds in your side, we agreed on a deal with x:x and noone else, even though you asked several times for deals for the awar and emeriti. We made it clear that the deal was with x:x and no one else, but that we planned to stay neutral and honor our deals.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

New developments my ass. Prior to making the meep deal you assured us you kept all deals and you had a YR6+notice deal with Emeriti. Once you collected all the land ont he meep deal, you then changed your tune. You threatened to void the deal because a province in Meep's kingdom made an ambush (even though the land was obviously offered back to you). You also started saying you didn't agree to stay out of the awar anymore and wouldn't even confirm anymore that you'd keep your deals despite the whole premise of Meeps deal being based on your word of keeping all deals.

Pandas leadership have proven themselves to be deal breakers and liars.

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Again, when we dealt with the x:x situation, we had no plans to join the awar, inspite the invitations from both sides, as you should be aware. I think should we be interested in just gaining stuff or the age, we would take your offer promising to make us top 1, wouldn't we?

We didnt change our tone, even though there were several threats made by Meep and even you when we didnt agree to join ABS side in war or were negotiating the deal with x:x, we just stated we would not tolerate 8:11 breaking the deal they agreed on just a few hours after the thing was made.

If the new information came out of your ass, I have no idea but I very much doubt it, but said information was key to our change of hearts, with our preference obviously pending towards the side that didnt threaten us, that didnt send allies to raze others kds start of age, etc.

The fact that before and after we decided to join, there was a big PR propaganda to change facts and lie with no shame about how things regarding Pandas developed, makes me realize a lot hasn't changed in the last years of Utopia.

Twisting words and changing their meaning, wont make a lie become true and wont gain my support.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...psezbcnwjt.gif

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Originally Posted by Aranfein

ASF - I'm sorry but please explain something to me I don't quite understand, it may sway my kingdom into action...

Question:
So are you saying it's ok from now on to hit into opponents EoWCF if they look to have gained a little too many acres for the kingdoms liking... and letting them train that acres up peacefully would put my kingdom at risk when they come out?

So can I start hitting into EoWCF at will, to protect my own kingdom? I think I'll start hitting all those landfat delicious targets just finishing their wars while their armies are depleted...

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No, I'm not saying that. This is what was apologized for very early on by Emeriti for their role in suggesting it.

My own personal view though is that I am generally ok with accepting something done to me like that if the person/kingdom who did it is trying to protect themself by offering everything plus interest back for a cf. I am personally less understanding when it is done for offensive purposes like for profit or for FSU.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

He asked for a cf before hits (yes, only 4h before but his message was read and not responded to by the steward.) He then razed and offered all land that he razed back to BB plus extra land if they'd just cf him. They refused. He then offered all land, plus extra, plus free gc and a fake hostile to prep for Emeriti. They refused.

This is not doing anyone else's dirty work, nor is it any FSU. This is trying to get a cf for himself without harming BB.

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There is one thing I am struggling to understand at the end of this all. The word is proportionality.

The BB response to this whole situation is DISproportionate to the extreme and has resulted in such a mess of a situation that could have simply been resolved diplomatically. After they made a CF deal with Emeriti with the intention of breaking it, future CF deals will always be in doubt.

Not to mention we are fresh off the blatant cheating done by pyro last age which was PROVEN.

As they say worse things happen at sea...