Age 54 Potential Changes Rev II

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Originally Posted by mjonte

So Faery should get -50% honour bonuses and loose another nerf?

Seems like that idea would solve alot of problems that have been brought up in the last few pages.

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With the Warriors + 15% Off and advanced conquest, it'll be even easier for faeries to get broken + also add chances of contracting plague faeries IMO are quite nerfed...

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Originally Posted by crease

Please oh wise Bishop, explain how you can knock about a faery in hostile next age, you now only get 2 masses without them casting ms all over ur kd, and 7 before they declare on you. That means you can kill off 1 faery or 1 elf and do a little to another. (maybe) Not even worth it.

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Judging by your post you don't like faeries and run attackers? Orc has Reflect Magic to counter this so the faeries will need to waste added mana getting MV's to get it off + as a heavy hitting kingdom surely the first rule should be your attackers elites are always out so you don't get chained at home in or outside war from a) faeries MS and the opposition kingdom members attackers.

I think the developers should make it faeries only and just give us natures blessing and fertile lands so we can live in peace.

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Originally Posted by American Badass

With the Warriors + 15% Off and advanced conquest, it'll be even easier for faeries to get broken + also add chances of contracting plague faeries IMO are quite nerfed...

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Actually the chance of a big Fae being broken in war is very low unless he was softened up during hostile

The only counter I can see from all of this is give Warrior / Tactician / Cleric:

-25% honor losses from Thievery ops and spells.

Or introduce a new building which is available to them called "Hall of Honor" or something with maximum -30% honor from T/M/attacks but make it so that they need to run sensible number to achieve this like how banks are capped at x income before theyre useless when you build over them etc.

*Edit*

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Originally Posted by Landro

Top kingdoms aren't much different. Few attackers will reach count and fewer are able to hang on to it. Faeries on the other hand dominate the honor charts.
If a Fae burns all his mana on ToG during war then he isn't using it to hurt you. That's a win situation in my book.

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Looking at the honor charts, I see 7 Avians above Count, 0 Dwarves, 0 Humans, 1 Orc, 9 Halflings, 3 Undead, 21 Elves and 100+ Faeries.
So yes, mages and T/Ms clearly have the advantage when it comes to gaining honor

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I'm an undead cOunt... :D

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Originally Posted by American Badass

The only counter I can see from all of this is give Warrior / Tactician / Cleric:

-25% honor losses from Thievery ops and spells.

Or introduce a new building which is available to them called "Hall of Honor" or something with maximum -30% honor from T/M/attacks but make it so that they need to run sensible number to achieve this like how banks are capped at x income before theyre useless when you build over them etc.

*Edit*



I'm an undead cOunt... :D

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Gratz, I'm Human Count but I was referring to ranks above Count so Marquis or better. I could have worded it better

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Originally Posted by Landro

Gratz, I'm Human Count but I was referring to ranks above Count so Marquis or better. I could have worded it better

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I just wanted to use my joke. Well done to you... :)

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Originally Posted by American Badass

I just wanted to use my joke. Well done to you... :)

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Some people have no sense of humor.

Back on topic...

If Avians are expected to make anything of the proposed +40% Thievery Damage, they at least need their 6-point Defense Specs back in order to run the TpA needed to make any use of it.

Faery got a pretty hard nerf - which was needed. Some argue it's too much while others argue it isn't enough, which leads me to feel that it's just about right as-is.

Halfers need to retain Aggression and Quick Feet, and even that leaves them fairly weak due to losing their Population bonus.

Humans need at least a 6-point offensive Elite (even with the Population bonus), their extra damage for Spells & Ops needs to be toned down a ways, and they should retain their Income bonus.

And if anyone has Reflect Magic, it should be Elves - it simply does not fit with Orcs.

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Originally Posted by Twyla

Faery got a pretty hard nerf - which was needed. Some argue it's too much while others argue it isn't enough, which leads me to feel that it's just about right as-is.

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Popular opinion has nothing to do with whether a race is OP or not. Especially when some people have a better grasp of the game mechanics then others.

Why would you want to hit a big Faery during war?
Why are people still crying about Faeries having high defense?

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Originally Posted by Landro

Actually the chance of a big Fae being broken in war is very low unless he was softened up during hostile

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Sorry Landro, have to disagree...all it takes is one person in your KD to be able to break a fay and its toast. Looking at some of the elites with these changes....orc/tact or orc/warrior seems like a real good fay killer not to mention nothing a bounce wave cant fix :P

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Originally Posted by Pillz

Why would you want to hit a big Faery during war?
Why are people still crying about Faeries having high defense?

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People who can't figure out how to disable a Faery province want the Faery race to be an acre farm while the people who actually did the homework see that the Faery race can't really do their job as a T/M now since they will basically have to go Faery/Mystic or Faery/Rogue (Not as popular) to gain the extra stealth per tick (meaning no automatic +25% science effectiveness bonus). Then the reduction in the racial TPA/WPA bonus by 20% while still having the -10% population penalty means they'll have to allocate more population to thieves and wizards to get the same TPA/WPA. The Faery has to train 14% more thieves and 14% more wizards now and if they want to run a defense where only Orcs/Undeads can break them then it will leave Faeries with around 4000 peasants (Atleast half of what other races have in peasant rank and the rest can still attack). If the -10% population penalty is reduced to -5% population penalty or eliminate the population penalty completely while making their elite a 1/8 with a -1 off spec penalty. This allows to keep military for ambushing attacks while forcing Faeries to choose between offense or defense.

My view is make it one of the following:
-5% population. Change nothing on bonuses and elite values
No population penalty with Faery elites 1/8 and off specs at 4/0 to force the Faery race to sacrifice defense if they want to have any offense.

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Originally Posted by Azartyn

Sorry Landro, have to disagree...all it takes is one person in your KD to be able to break a fay and its toast. Looking at some of the elites with these changes....orc/tact or orc/warrior seems like a real good fay killer

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There are a couple more options that will be good with the Orc/personality trait or atleast from what I saw anyway.

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Originally Posted by American Badass

Judging by your post you don't like faeries and run attackers? Orc has Reflect Magic to counter this so the faeries will need to waste added mana getting MV's to get it off + as a heavy hitting kingdom surely the first rule should be your attackers elites are always out so you don't get chained at home in or outside war from a) faeries MS and the opposition kingdom members attackers.

I think the developers should make it faeries only and just give us natures blessing and fertile lands so we can live in peace.

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Im not a fan of faeries next age sure.... They are incompetent thieves and have less mana and lower wpa than an elf. However i was making a point that this age you could make 14 masses to remove t/m power. Next age you can mass ONLY 1 prov effectively with 14 points then faerys are safe to whore up honour safely ub. How you understood that i don't like faeries from that obvious imba i picked up on is silly? I basically said faeries were safer than this age, and you said roflolololol you must not like faeries?

In what universe is RM on orc a counter to faeries..... a faery does little more than cast MS and MV with mana. 1 race inevitably has RM up so it does nothing to a faery.... cupid stunt. RM is a recoil mechanic when an orc is being shelled.

Faeries shouldnt be hit for land in war - it does not hurt them. It increases their TPA and WPA, allowing them to be even more effective. You're better off ignoring them and focusing your efforts on other attackers. That is my point. Why the **** do you want to hit Faeries in war for land?

Unless you gaive back Avians 6 Def.Spec then you may as well remove them from race list.

They can no way compete against Undead or Orc as heavy attackers. They can only be A/T
Elves and Dwarves seems to be much better hybrids so far.
more TPA means even less Def.Spec (considering they need to keep up their leet number similar to this age for breaking).
Def.Spec nomore having def.bonus + leets totally not contributing to Def + less Def.spec spared for making TPA = suicidal

any effective Avian province can be turned to dust in 1 day of war with little to no effort. Without changes we wont see any avians around next Age.

PS: I am really happy with the changes to dwarf, but I hoped BE bonus would be higher than %10.

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Originally Posted by Pillz

Faeries shouldnt be hit for land in war - it does not hurt them. It increases their TPA and WPA, allowing them to be even more effective. You're better off ignoring them and focusing your efforts on other attackers. That is my point. Why the **** do you want to hit Faeries in war for land?

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Who said anything about hitting them for land...I dont know about you but I would massacre fays before raising their TPA/WPA anytime. If you want to sit and let a fay MS or FB the hell outta you go for it...me personally...Im taking them out by massacre.

OK finally got chance to think through the 2nd round of changes so hear we go! to discuss the numbers on the races i am going to split them into their designed rolls, then discuss weather or not they have the power to be useful/successful within that roll and then finally give my suggestions as to how to tweak the underpowered/overpowered races.

GROUPING & ANALYSIS

Pure attackers- Orcs & Undeads, Both races suit this roll very well boasting 9 point offense elites and unique ability's to help sustain that offense throughout a war. As well as individualized bounces to their attacks and negatives to T/M aspirations. Overall both races seem very capable and fairly balanced at fulfilling the same roll without having the same "feel". A+ hear i wouldn't change them at all.

T/M- Faerys & Humans(maybe? I'm still not 100% on what your trying to do with humans), Faerys are perfect for this roll and definitely have the power to get it done. I thought the faerys where a bit overpowered last age but with the reduction in TPA & WPA bonuses in addition to giving other races T/M bonuses i think it balances them out nice. A+ to faerys i wouldn't change em, I will talk about humans last as i think they are all wonky.

Power hybrids (a/M & a/T)- Elfs seem well suited as A/M's with a slight lean more towards the M then the A in A/M as well as being able to play a pure mage capable of even casting on faerys at the cost of of attack power and thievery ability/defense. All the same could be said about Halfers just in terms of Thief power instead of magic. However i feel that both races are a bit underpowered with Elfs being the stronger of the two. I ran a halfer/merchant A/T this age and thought it was decent at best. for the most part I didn't have any problems thieving anyone besides faerys and was even able to cast on some attackers to boot but i was also ALWAYS feeling a tad short on attack power even after blunting my expectations due to being a hybrid, loosing the pop bonus (even with TPA bonus) kills them. if a kingdom full of hybrids cant produce comparable numbers in attack & T/M power to a kingdom split between Faerys and pure attackers then hybrids loose a lot of their appeal. This isn't to say Elfs and Halfers need to be as strong of attackers as orcs while being able to op faerys but they need to land some where in the middle and right now i think the faery/attacker combo has the hybrid combo beat hands down. I would give Elfs a B+ to A- while giving the halfers a solid B.

Damage Hybrids (A/m & A/t)- Avains, Dwarfs and Humans (again not so sure on humans), Avains and Dwarfs both seem to fit well in their rolls as A/T and A/M respectively while leaning a bit more towards attack power than T/M power, this is a nice complement to the other hybrid rolls that seem to emphasize their T/M power a bit more. Like the other hybrids i feel like Avains and dwarfs are underpowered when compared to the combination of Faerys and attackers in a kingdom. neither race boasts the pop space or space efficiency to run a high enough WPA/TPA to take advantage of their + to damages and still maintain a decent attack strength as well. It also concerns me that both races have very little ability to turtle with low D elites making them much more vulnerable to pre war massacres during button games as well as ambushes to kill an already subpar offense. I also don't like the + to thievery damage as it functions now sense it will not exceed the max damage limit for a particular op so basically it just works out to sending less thieves to do the same damage which isn't nearly as attractive as doing 40% more damage for sending the same amount of thieves. Over all i would give them both about a B and again will talk about humans last.

Humans- To me it seems like you where looking for a race that could slide between a T/M and a hybrid with a fair amount of flexibility in how it was played depending on the players preferences. As humans stand right now however i just don't see them being usable in any roll. They have the added pop space which coupled with the +50% T/M damage you would think could make them a strong T/M candidate however their elite is no where near space efficient enough to allow humans to stack on the TPA and WPA needed to take advantage of those damage bonuses while keeping enough D to be relatively UB like faerys, the leet also bloats the humans NW making it a sub-par attacker or turtle as well. From the changes the way i interpret the vision for this roll is as a T/M capable of entering wars as fairly UB within its NW range, able to op attackers and hybrids (struggling to cast on elves and thieve halfers), un able to op faerys but able to slide into the roll of support attacker far better than faerys as war goes on and enemy MO diminishes.

CHANGES (to current proposals)

Undead, Orc and Faery Unchanged. i have heard people suggest dropping orc and undeads elites by one offensive point each which i think would go along way to balancing pure attackers and hybrids but then you would have to drop faerys elite by 1 D as well (otherwise they would be too strong in my opinion) which i think would cause another round of adjustments to be needed across the boards. So i would rather strengthen the other races than weaken this.

Elf- They don't need much. I Think that a 7/4, 6.5 NW-6.75NW Elite OR a +1 horse would give them the little extra kick they need to be very competitive. I prefer the 7/4 elite over the +1 horse.

Halfling- they need their pop bonus back! that and possibly still a little help with their offense. my suggestion? +10% pop and either a 6/6 elite or a +1 O spec and drop the 2/2 soldiers in either case (its a cool idea just not all too functional). I like the +1 O spec more. QF would also be nice to see back in their spell book as well

Avain- First change game mechanics so +40% thievery damage truly function that way instead of functioning as -40% thiefs needed to be sent. Next boost their attack power either an 8/3 elite OR if you think thats too much a 7/3 elite and remove the "no accesses to stables" penalty. I like the 8/3 elite as it allows avains to run a lower amount of elites and more D specs/thieves helping them turtle a bit and maintain a usable TPA.

Dwarf- I think bumping their BE bonus from +10% to +20% would help them all around but i'm not sure it would be enough, the other option i see is to drop the BE bonus and give them something like a 7/6 elite with a high enough NW to discourage a full elite army (maybe 7.5 NW?) i like the strong elite more than an increase in BE.

Humans- They need to most work to me, even more so sense i want their pop bonus moved back to halfers. i think that giving them the dwarf +10% BE (or even up to 20% BE) and a 5/7, 7 NWPA elite would suit them well. the BE bonus helps them shore up T/M abilities and the elite would allow them to slide from complete turtle to turtle attacker as a war drags on far better than now.