I agree.
Printable View
I'd rather see Ud as an A/m, Av as an A/t (assuming they insist on having 2 of each) and Dwarf as an attacker.
I'm also not pro having both hybrids get their space efficiency from not having to run rax (-AT Racial or QF)... Even when it was Halfer and Elf both with QF just seems a tad samey for me.
***Edit - Should probably point out I'm talking purely mythos / lore orientated as I realise Ud in their current incarnation aren't suited to a/m all that well. Just that I find it hard to consider Dw as either an a/t or an a/m from a lore point of view.
Undead can play a sort of a/m, due to how useful Chastity is and having more land to pump wizzies. It requires a different kind of military than most undeads, but it can be quite effective and put out better opa than Elf or Dwarf, and better dpa than the latter.
I think Dwarf could play more of a magic and ops resistance role, on top of having an economy that's fairly resistent to losing and gaining land and a pretty strong military. That's one of their stronger points this age relative to other races.
Also - dorf ninjas are fun to play with if you're hyperactive. ^_^
I also liked undead the most when they were suited to being an A/M it is hard now with the science penalty though. Is kind of like -30% wpa by the end of age :P
Would love to see undead with the only 9 point elite, and losing the ability to train elites. But then knock down the science penalty or give a new penalty but I am waiting another week or so before I reposted my suggested changes for races :p and will combo it with personas in a tl;dr post of epic win.
unless wiki is wrong...
LP Effect: Increases base birth rate from 2.05% to 2.80%.
it raises base birth rate
2.8% * 1,000 pez = 28 * 2.75 = 77 peasants per hour
.028 * 2.75 = .077
1000(1.077)^9= 1,949.58
so in 9 hours you will almost double your pez count, but if you are drafting or training wizards, it will take longer than 9 hours to double.
you'd also run homes to play on this
2.8*2.75*1.5 = HIGH
Avian only (vaguely) practical now as a 3-unique attacker, which is impractical for most of us, and thus suffers the big drop in % played.
You only need 10-15% attack speed (which is why Dwarves with QF is viable; two uniques a day and 0 rax needed for war). Just drop attack speed for Avians down to 10-15% and balance accordingly.
------
I'm going to continue on with the dwarf comparison, because elite offense is the biggest dictator on role and (apparently) they share the same role (A/m vs A/t).
Dwarf is strong because they don't need rax and they can squeak by without WTs (CS). They have light thief defense through spells, so they can rely on fewer thieves.
Solution: give Avians Reflect Magic. Mystic Aura is mostly negligible.
Dwarves (due to high BE and no need for rax) can boost their offense easily with stables without sacrificing much. In addition, they have Fanat, which means even higher Offense. In this game, offense is king, so Avians fall flat in the A role.
Solution: boost Avian's offensive power. Increase their elite to 8/2 OR give them Fanatacism and a slight Population bonus (5% or so).
As mentioned earlier Avians have too much attack speed for anyone other than hardcore players. In addition to this, it's impossible to keep a 3 a day schedule with incoming land (impractical at least).
Solution: drop Attack Time to 10-15%. Remove -10% battle gains.
----
However, after all of this, Avians are more or less bland... Just remove the -10% gains and they're solid. :P
if your able to turtle just the fact that you can attack and beat the opponent home makes them ok. But yea i dunno I like avian because I have no issues making 3 uniques a day in war. I like having something to do with my time :D
This is wrong, rax are no worse for races with QF/speed bonuses due to the way the formula works. In fact Rax become BETTER for these races rather than worse. (See dorje's posts on 1-x formula's for why)
Edit: Offence is not king. Defence is worth slightly more than offence all else equal.
If offense isn't king, then why are UDs and Orcs so prevalent? Offense lasts longer than defense, it's safe from MS, safer from NS and desertions, allows you to gain more and mitigate gains more. If you stack defense, you'll be ignored in a war and then nightmare chained down. If you stack offense, you're a threat, but only so many high offense provinces can be chained down at a time. Defense is "worth" slightly more networth (which isn't an inherently good thing), but that's it.
I haven't seen "dorje's formula's" on this. But I did not say they are "worse." I said they were "useless" for the typical player on a 2 unique-day schedule.
You missed my main point. I'm saying more than 10% attack speed is near useless for those of us that do not wish to wake up in the middle of the night or log in during work, which makes Avian exclusive by nature. If you reduced the attack speed bonus to 10/15%, it'd be more practical. ONTOP of this, what I was referring to with the barracks, as you're making hits and gaining land, your effective %rax drops. This means that every time your army comes in, your army will go out slower. This further upsets scheduling, which means you have to overbuild rax to prevent this, which takes up more space. Something like QF or a 10-15% Avian speed bonus is enough to completely remove the need for rax (which means you save 15% of your buildings) and still make 2 uniques a day in war with about 56 minutes of leeway (which is comfortable).
I wasn't meaning to imply Rax were worse for QF / -AT races, simply that most players simply see that bonus in space efficiency terms of saving them land by not having to run x% rax to get the same effect. And that for a lot of people who adhere to a 2-hits a day principle (due to whatever time constraints) the bonus essentially equates into meaning they simply don't run any rax at all.
Hybrids tend to struggle with space for buildings more than others, so you could consider that both Av and Dw are simply making that space saving in the same way - which is rather dull.
I'm going to throw this out as a rather left-field suggestion, but part of the problem with a 'fast' attacker (or a/t or whatever) as has been highlighted either here or elsewhere is that they tend to be either OP or not good enough and that they can be rather exclusive if they start to require 3 logins a day making them not very useful to a lot of the server...
So could it not be possible to nerf there base attack time to something that makes them able to do two hits a day without rax, and then give them an enhanced version of QF that further modified AT such that they could make 3 hits a day but at a penalty of -gains / -ome or some such so that it was slightly beneficial to hit 3 times a day but at an opportunity cost of having to hit worse targets / gets worse gains.
Tact would probably have to be nerfed a little to not completely OP it (assuming it wouldn't be already) and Av would have to have 'No Access to Rax' as a negative but could you, for example have it:
Tact = -10% AT
Av Race Bonus = -12% AT (no access to Rax)
Av Racial Spell = -30% AT, -15% Gains, -5% OME (Penalties would need balancing no doubt...)
So that:
non-Av/Tact = 16 x 0.9 x 0.8 = 11.52hr AT in war (no need for rax for twice a day and can use Rax to improve)
Av/x no use of spell = 16 x 0.88 x 0.8 = 11.26hr AT in war (2 hits a day in war, no access to Rax)
Av/x use of spell = 16 x 0.88 x 0.7 x 0.8 = 7.88hr AT in war (3 hits a day in war, no access to Rax, Penalties to gains / OME on hits)
Av/Tact no use of spell = 16 x 0.88 x 0.9 x 0.8 = 10hr AT in war (2 hits a day in war, no access to Rax)
Av/Tact use of spell = 16 x 0.88 x 0.9 x 0.7 x 0.8 = 7.1hr AT in war (3 hits a day in war, no access to Rax, Penalties to gains / OME on hits)
You could then adjust the rest of the Race however you wanted, but they would still be useful for twice a day attackers and also allow people to make three hits a day if they wanted. So if you could only hit twice one day but three times other days you could tailor your use of the spell to match. And likewise you then have more tactical options like deciding that if someone suicides you could use the spell to get two hits in before their armies return. And so on.
In a min-time war then the 7.1hr AT should still not make an extra wave should it? 48 / 8 = 6 hits, 48 / 7.1 = 8.8 hits...
(oh and apologies if my math is totally rubbish, but you get the principle at least...)
anybody suggesting avians take a +% losses has obviously never played them. you can't make anywhere up to 15 individual hits a day and last longer than 24 hours. simple as that. even as avian tact, if you start taking hits and losing land there is no way to pay for everything - building gets expensive and training is difficult too. there just isn't enough money to go around, esp. if you are running >70% draft, which you will be if you get chained. so here is my avian (themed as A/t so that bish doesn't poo poo it)
-25% attack time
-20% losses on attack
+20% TPA
+20% losses on defense
-10% WPA
elite 7/3 nw 7 to 7.5
i figure...
birds are fast and very agile, so when they're coming to you they can use their maneuverability to stay alive. however, when you're coming after something a bird wants and they have to hold a fixed position, they're a bigger target with their fancy wings so they're easier to hit. the tpa is purely because they're supposed to be A/t, but it also helps to make up for their 7 elite + and higher draft for same OPA as orc/UD
I agree with the suggestions to reduce the attack time bonus to make avian a more viable choice for most players for a change, we can always change back the attack time bonus after next age:
Avians
Bonuses:
* -15% attack time
* -75% thief losses
* -50% ambush acre losses (or +75% birth rate)
Penalty:
* No access to stables
* -10% attack gains
Other Information:
* Offensive Specialist: Griffins (5/0)
* Defensive Specialist: Harpies (0/5)
* Elite Unit: Drake (8/2, $800, 7 nw)
* Spell book: Town Watch, Vermin, Mystic Aura
this would make avians a good choice for many players which plays differently from orc/undead
^ This looks like a strong race. I think 75% birth rate would be swell, to help with sustain issues (orcs and UD both have sustain features) and perhaps make something like War Hero a worthwhile personality.
Otherwise, I see a strong econ attack with viable thief use. It's actually comparable to dwarf A/m now. As it is now, a dwarf would make a better A/t. Good job.