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2 quick thingsQuote:
Originally Posted by Delryn
the overpop thing was brought in cause of hell-swarming, where people would drop to ~50% of current land, and not have to worry
as long as BE is >80% for most of age, and mid to high-80's towards end of age, i wouldnt worry about it too much
BE below 80 is slight worry, but most people have ~85-80% (dwarves and pumped humies obvious exceptions)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micke-
You will have to neglect it, and dont blah blah the static issue, every single bit of time, money, research, will be the decisive factor of whether you and your kd will make it or not. i dont see how your prov will benefit "greatly" from 10-15% homes. how can it? show me your numbers and ill show you without homes! all numbers homes give are completly insignificant in ANY set up and situation. the real argument out there is for the gnomes, and as i have mentioned, any % that you dont depend on is a good %, being able to switch strats and move builds to the right place at the right time is what can give you the upper hand in many situation mid to long term. Gnomes make you a lot more dependable and restrict your ability to grow, being stronger than you could be, and ultimatly survive. having more pop + sci, then giving it a home kicker will just sky rocket ur farms needs to the roof. so for each 1% of homes you give it, u need an other 1% farms if you somewhat sci the food. so hows that a benefit? whatever a home can do, TGs,forts,GSs,guilds,TDs, arms can do it better! if you are skilled, which isnt really needed, you can both maximize your use of the BE with no homes to other build strats(and with sci use) and have no disadvantage whatsoever to an other prov.
Lordwarallied,
So you think you can science pump an undead to have decent BE without homes?
Ok,
make a build undead heavy hitter
with .7opnw .25dpnw 2.5wpa 1tpa
Also factor in 20% GS 0% forts and 5epa.
without homes and with your 10%(20% for any other race) in tools science you will be lucky to have over 70% BE.
with my 15% homes I have .66opnw, .28dpnw, 1.5wpa 1.5tpa, and 75% BE.
This is a challange for you to create allot better numbers than what I use without homes, and the numbers I am trying to achieve.
The next part is, how would you protect your sciences?
Quote:
Originally Posted by otokonoko
im not responsible for poor race choices. if you NEED homes because of your race choice, then its your fail not mine.what do you want me to say? build 20% dongeons to fill in thejobs? undeads are bad, and go in any thread (realest and friends, VT2 consortium) and they will tell you that your case is hopeless. thats why undeads kd are not in top and orcs/elves/dwarves are.
EDIT: protect your what??? who the hell would learn an undead?!?! more importantly, dont tell me your running schools to protect it cause then there is absolutly nothing we can do to help. to protect ur sci is learn, if ur ever getting learned, that should keep it up. and yea. best way to protect it is not getting hit.
RE-EDIT: and there is ways you can have an heavy hitter undead if u choose the personality right and if you dont rainbow ur strat to much.
ill post something up soon for you. i gtg eat.
Let's look at a few key things.
1) you can't get good science on an undead, because the race has penalties to this area.
2) you can't get badass offense easily, because the race has penalties to this area.
3) you can't be a badass T, because the race has penalties to this area.
4) your defense will always suck, because your race has less turtlepower than orc.
5) you have a mediocre spellbook, and no bonuses to magic, so you can't be a badass M.
6) bar no offensive losses, you have no direct or indirect bonuses to economy.
You don't require food, but food is always plentiful.
You have an awesomely powerful offensive elite, that you can't control the growth of, which limits your offense.
You spread plague, but this is very random, and not under your control.
With badass offense, you're forced to go for anonymity, which means your attacks will be slower, or risk getting ambushed, so your offense dies.
Face facts - undead blows.
Orc and dwarf do straight-up attackers better, elf and dwarf are better wizards, and human is a better thief.
i think VT2 said it all for you,homes cannot save any races, specially undeads.
ok Lordwarallied:
here is my build for elf/mystic
(w/o libs)
17.1% Income
13.9% Building Effectiveness
9.4% Population Limits
63.5% Food Production
10% Gains in Combat
56.6% Thievery Effectiveness
91% Magic Effectiveness & Rune Production
1. Homes:(10%)
2. Farms:(8%)
3. Banks:(15%)
4. Training Grounds:(19%)
5. Barracks:(12%)
6. Guilds: (11%)
7. Towers: (7%)
8. Libraries:(10%)
9. Stables: (8%)
Total Modified Offense: 158,267 (86.86 per Acre)
Practical (100% elites): 158,267 (86.86 per Acre)
Total Modified Defense: 158,335 (86.90 per Acre)
Practical (0% elites): 75,504 (41.44 per Acre)
Thieves: 3,540 (1.94 per Acre / 100% Stealth)
Wizards: 7,222 (3.96 per Acre / 71% Mana)
goal, 5wpa 1tpa (same pop% used like mine) 40dpa with army out as much off as possible. Baron honor.
ok, now ur turn show me how to get better numbers I know for a fact this aint optimal, but its a good way on its way.
(considering dropping my libs, put 5% extra homes, add 3% rax, 2% guilds)
Ditch the stables, the libraries, and the banks, raise your draft, get more TPA, increase your raw WPA, get better science.
Yeah.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micke-
you have libs?????? barracks are meh OOW imo, towers level higher than 2% is also meh OOW. ditch stables to that point. its been proven they dont offer more offense points than what TG's can do for the same %. ur an elf mystic? in war or out of pump i would reduce significantly guilds and towers to 3-4% and 1% respectivly. you bank, farm level is not a bad one. like VT2 said, specially if ur TM, raise ur wpa, specially ur tpa remove ur darn homes (or leave it at 5% if ur more comfortable)
this should give you something like: 45-50% of builds % free of use. you could add up a bit more TG's, GS's, banks to get some extra sci into food so u can reduce ur farms level, TD's OOW or TD's/orWT'S if in war. GS would take a chunk of it tho. or just go with a spam mix of arms/hosp so you can get ur higher draft rate and attack losses in line. but its not the best option
so for elf mystic OOW with no bank:
5% farms
20% TG's
15% arms (until armies are trained then switch to something fitting the situation like (forts, GS, towers/rax)
11%forts
20% GS (or boost it even higher from arms if u feel like it)
15% guilds
2% towers (or even 0.5 with that sci of urs)
15%TD's
u may add 5% homes when ur finished to get an overall small effective boost. altho it isnt the same as an actual build giving u the boost.
He's got tree of gold, and can steal money if he needs it.
Why are you all so obsessed with making excess cash, when there are a billion and one n00bs out there you can steal from?
you promised to give me numbers... now work ur magic
with the build above I dont have to change anything when i go to war, when I hit for acres in war, I simply dont build additional homes, instead fortify rax/tg/guilds.
and you obviously have no idea if you want me to build more banks... instead of homes.
homes and banks together work much better than banks or homes alone when it comes to making income at higher draft.
as for aid, my tb is among the highest in the kd.
Why?
Math too hard for you, or does common sense hurt that much?
sorry VT2, still not used of the tog factor for regular elves as i came back this age to play again. then i guess to put all that stuff that was in banks into guilds and rax.
Micke. YOU will have to work magic to even get something good out of your undead. thye suck, we all explained it, and your making no point by being all like ohhh you told me this blah blah blah. ive made one for your elf mystic. undead's are hopeless. even with a 100% homes or a 100% banks. and no. homes and banks doesnt work "well" together. if ur really obssessed with meaningless bonuses that not only can be countered, can be easily re-produced at any better rate in another way. its like your trying to convince me to build u a strat because u give me that exemple of undead clerics or darkelf war hero. dont blame that bad choice on someone else. i will never choose undead in that state. so i wont waste time making something out of it. even if you werent using homes it would be useless. your fate with that race...doomed.
someone around here is obviously retarded, where did I even remotly mention the race "undead"?
now if I am to take you seriously (for obvious reasons, when you even say that you recently got back to the game. now is the time for you to take away that 'foolish' mark you just recieved)
and vt2, go diaf will you?, you cant even take care of a ghetto properly.
sure looks like an undead to me ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Micke-
I know this was old but THANK YOU FOR SHARING. I was looking for that post for a while nowQuote:
Originally Posted by _greenie
Micke-
sorry, got confused in btw the you and octo. octoboko or wtv his name is challenged me to find one for his sexy undead. then you posted a really weirdly set up elf mystic, i posted a strat then u told me to find one and work your magic. you my friend, your situation was already dealt with a while back. elves mystics are pretty easy to strat with in any situation. you have issues, HUGE strat issue with one of the easiest race in the game and you havent been absent at all right? lets face it,with no offense intended, but your strat SUCKS!!! so you better not come to me with the absentee thingy ok? im not on an utopian curfew, if i was away 2 ages, and i understand those principles, and you dont...then who's looking bad? . people like VT2, Realest, Dharan, CW and others could leave 15 ages and will still be better than you, than I and many others. so quit it will ya?
EDIT: and your the one that said to be nice to ppl? if you get personal on things just after the octo and you confusion, then dont expect us to not troll. im not a troll exept on some cases. i just dont like peopl to get over excited into wanting to have 30% homes and talk crap about me being absent for one age when the person didnt even grasp the uselessness of libs, then you/they say that homes can be useful and not expect being mocked? its not like im trying to tell you to never run TG's or anything. but dont try to prove people wrong with ridiculous technicalities just because it will make you feel better in the end.
That's post of my gnome build is misleading. After all I had just got out of war so I had gain a lot of land. At any rate that build I was using for Red Mist I was using a 90% draft. And for that post you can see I was no where need 90% draft. Fully drafted I was about to put out around 100opa while keeping 100dpa at home. That build served me well.
The human build is also a little misleading because I was still drafting a little more and I had yet to train many of my troops. Also this province at the time was not in war build. A few quick changes and the provinces army will be much stronger.
Lordwarallied, homes is a superior way to play. Take a look at the links that greenie posted up. The gnome province is an example of how a strong province will be strong with or without science. A weak province will still be weak with science.
The human sage province is an example of how to play one bad-a** human sage province.
i dont believe it is Vines, any builds is better than a lot of homes. in a static environment with highly competitive play, there is now way homes can give you fast: attack times, strong pump in sci:wizzards;elites;moneys. it gives you higher nwth hence making you a weaker target to stronger opponents without penalties. they cant give you a superior and a more stable thievery ops versus a TD spammed rogue gnome. any 25 specialised provs in a top kd could rampage provs or kds set up like this with 1.5 wave minimum. and thats assuming your completly right.
id like you to give me a case to case comparaison of a prov with the same sci, same race and pers but with a difference of homes and no homes and how ud manage it. but ofc, it has to be at the level of homes YOU usually play with. if ur numbers beat it, then ok. but its still wont do the job in the situations ive mentioned. but you can try provin it.
EDIT: In this Utopia, its been long gone the days of just superior strats on paper but on practical kd constant warring. just have to think what would you do agaisnt a prov running ur strats and id be enough to think how really weak it is. like Realest said: mechanics are more important than mere numbers.
there is only 2 per acre numbers that matter in utopia
wizzies per acre, and thieves per acre
the rest is all absolutes
Well that Red Mist province I was runing in the last war I went up against another gnome the same size in networth. I took around 2k acres from his province.
The situations you have mentioned are putting 1 province against 25 provinces. Now if you were to put any top kingdom against a kingdom running my breaker and keeper strategy any top kingdom would lose. I'm not going to go in to the breaker and keeper strategy. I will just say that it has to do with high homes.
Vines.
No.
Just no.
I know a secret.... LWA(lordwarallied) uses homes in his gnome rogue... /me hides
I've seen most (all?) undeads and gnomes running homes.
I have yet to look at any with huge % of them, perhaps the inflated nwpa makes me assume they have been hit and to not waste the mana/stealth...?
not for long swan :D
vines: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA
tell me, which top level kd have you been part of? and i dont mean to patronize you but i find amusing that you have the audacity to say that at a top kd level ur homes strat would take up the win.
Well to tell you the truth I've been in a few top kingdoms just by freak happenstance. I was in this one really old school kingdom one called equilibrium. In equilibrium I larned how to grow super fast. Now I can grow faster than any other person in the game because of things I learned in that kingdom. Saddly no random kingdom would like it very much if I just out grew everyone in the game and it wouldn’t be good for the kingdom. Another old school top kingdom I was in was call war-heros or war gods, I’m not really sure on the name but I remember it started with the word “war”. In that kingdom I learned my tips and tricks about gnome(halfling). I was in another kingdom called Play-bunnies or play-boys, or something like that. But in that kingdom I learned how to be a strong attacker. I was in a few other kingdoms that were in the top 50. In those days I was still learning and devolving my own style. Now I’m a master of the game. My skills are honed and I have devolved a new style of play.
When I first introduced my play style to the utopia community I did it so without the use of sciences. The reason was to show a province running smoothly without the need for science. Sciences should only be ment as buffs for a province, not a necessitie. If newbi can not run his or her province smoothly without science than he or she has some problems.
I did well with the province Red Mist. I gained around 4k acres all in combat. I had 0 acres explored. The age after that I did even better and had lots of honor with a human sage. The reason is because I kept a low profile and did not post my province for that age.
Do u mean Play-School? thats a kids tv show....
if you have nothing better to say than to insult people, please dont.
yo u were in ABS and playboys? seriously?
FYI i used to play in equilibrium a long time ago. who were u again?
"Now I’m a master of the game. My skills are honed and I have devolved a new style of play."
Lol yea u have devolved into a lesser being.
You went without science, because you're stupid, and thought science added 0.92 networth per point.
Go away, vines - you're blocking the view.
"Now I can grow faster than any other person in the game" - vines
That is just beautiful. I would like to see you do it, my first go went okay, but I'm sure you could do better, and your kd-mates will love you for all the aid you can send them so you'd be really helping them out too. I would like to see you go for top province vines.
uoi may have land droped there, i can believe that. but to go out and say that you are now better than them cause of the things they taught you..its too much.
you used a logic on your previous post sayin that what you have accomplished, you had it done with all those strats and therefore it is because of that. frankly, thousands of people are doing what you have done but without your strats AT ALL! therefore, they can attribute it to the fact that they have not used it. so is it fair to say then that their strategy is superior to urs? i think you should know by now that no province is invincible, there is always a weakness, some bigger than others, a province needs to be very situational, and it isnt about just who has more PPA, cause i dont consider gnomes to be superiors because of that, ofc thats because of their racial traits. bottom line is. homes are weak, waste bonuses, for itself and other buildings that arent built cause of that. It makes you more vulnerable to other larger provinces, it requires lots more attention due to the fragility of it, its easy to Op and rewmove that "strenght". why but oh why would you want to be sci-less, have artificial military,wizzards and thieves, and have something that doesnt make your armies goes faster which is a HUGE advantage, something to REDUCE your food conssumption, something to reduce your losses if attacked, something to prevent useless losses in a war...i mean cmon man.
Before =|= now, vines. Before you had tens of thousands of people to farm.
"Now I’m a master of the game." - good to add to siggy.
Vines can't farm anyone.
He doesn't have the offense needed.
Viscount / UG
I'm looking at a few cbs of your elves. Here's what I've observed so far:
One prov 'rocking' 25 DPA all out. Looks like he has a substantial PPA though; CB gives him 30.5. He does have ~100 opa and maybe 80-90 dpa all home, though.
Aaaaand... another one with similar numbers. Looking at your orcs, they have about 200k more off and the same def on the same size.
You were saying what about elves > orcs when running 52% homes, exactly?
Look -- even *if* running 52% homes boosted your BE by 30% (okay -- it probably does) you're losing a good bit of land. You have 48% land to work with instead of 70% land. So, is 52% homes -- the bonus they give you directly -- worth 22% land?
I'm going to go with no. It looks like they give you about a 16.6% pop boost (52*8)/(25*100)) -- or for a prov with no science; 4.15 ppa. for 10% sci; 4.56 ppa.
At 70% draft that corresponds to 2.9 extra MPA. That's 18 opa + weak modifiers, at the cost of a substantial amount of land and vulnerability.
Look;
Homes aren't bad in every situation. But you need to look at it and calculate out the value of the extra offense homes give you vs tgs vs stables and figure out what each one means for your province, individually, rather than relying on the forums to guide you.
p.s.
My 2k acre orc with 100 NPA can hit either of two the two 4.5k+ acre elves I cb'd if they send out.
If I were 4k acres with my pre-war stats (a fat 150 nwa) I could hit your 4.5k acre elves with 180-190 nwa all home, and quad them if they sent out -- while maintaining a similar dpa to them. [and yes, I'm assuming they don't have a dragon on them :P]
First of all, we've been fighting 3 Absalom kingdoms in the last 24-48 hours. Ofc our provs aren't pumped, big guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauper
Second of all, get out of the ghetto.
boohoo, i was hit 9x in the ~60h window between our wars :P I'm pretty confident that your elves don't normally run more than 180-190 NWA. If I'm wrong, it just makes them that much of a better target. It happens that elves with 24k defspecs don't tend to lose more than say -- 1.2-1.5k each time they're hit. So they had what, maybe 30k defspecs, since I imagine the abs kds have been hitting you for gains rather than chaining ooh? 150k def all out? Again, not very impressive for a 52% homes strat. But then, you won't share what their info is, which just furthers my impression that you guys were (shock) exaggeratin'. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by UnknownGhost
Second of all, sinners isn't exactly a top kd. Maybe you should speak for yourself :P. There are plenty of top kds that I do have standing offers to join, but I really prefer doing what I'm doing.
Clampy I once did it but it was not good for the kingdom. Mummm no one is doing what I have done. They are doing similar but not the same. The difference is how they are geting their results.
I have never said that in fact I stated when I first showed my strategy that no province is invincible but a province can be made to have no weakness. And that's what my strategies do they make a province that has no weakness. All these other strategies have a spot that is lacking. So they use team work to covering up one another's weaknesses. My strategies as a kingdom would not involve covering one another's weaknesses reather it would be to prevent one another from being weakened. When you said homes make one more vulnerable to larger provinces. Well any one can be bottom fed there is no helping that, and they have made some changed so bottom feeding is not like it used to be for where a province 20% bigger could take a good amount of land from you.
Lordwarallied, with all due respect, please stop talking out of your ass. I made up the strategy if you have a question about it ask me. A high home strategy does not need lots of attention and is not fragile. I've been known to go inactive throughout ages on a regular basis and my province is just fine when I come back.
Another thing when you talk ops to weaken a province. That kind of thing works on most provinces. However once you get to higher levels of play you will realize it becomes very hard to do that. In fact at my level of play the only way an opponent kingdom is going to weaken a keeper strategy of mine is if they have a pure t/ms running +8tparaw and
+8wparaw. Because my keeper strategy has to do with a province running a minimum of 5rawtpa/wpa. Even still you have to remember war is not about ops. In war if I find that a province is oping me I would just have that province's land taken because they will be lacking in military power if they are able to op on a keeper. So you make be thinking okay so keepers are bad but their has to be a catch. Yes there is. While keepers are strong in all areas they lack the military to start a fight. That's where breakers come into play. A breaker is able to dish out 130-150opa.
Put it this way if a top kingdom came across a keeper breaker, kingdom this is how it would go down. The keepers would get soms and cbs of all the provinces. With in the next few hours the breakers would attack the provinces with the highest tpa and wpa. The top kingdom would than have it's attackers attack the breakers. The provinces that were attacked would not attack if they did the breakers would only attack them again. At any rate, once the top kingdom's attackers attacked. The keepers would attack them and keep the land. Then the breakers would attack again and so on untill the two kingdoms were in war. By this time the keepers and breakers are in thieve and wizard pump mode and everyone keeps armies at home. At the same time, the king of the keeper, breaker kigndom will message the kingdom of the top kingdom asking for his kingdom to give up with in the minimum time. It will take about two days for everyone in the breaker, keeper kingdom to build up all the new military and what not. At that point if the top kingdom does not give up the breaker, keeper kingdom will just wave them one more time.
The only way a top kingdom could beat a breaker, keeper strategy is if they had help from another top kingdom. However if the king running the keeper, breaker kingdom was skilled he or she would order a ruby dragon on both kingdoms at the same time. Then the king or queen would have the keepers change to pure t/m by droping military and then he or she would have the breakers running a negavite income and build up a 99% draft. This would allow the breakers to rise tpa and wpa while keeping the military froce. The keepers would feed the breakers. All in all the keeper, breaker strategy would still have a good chance of winning a war against two kingdom. It would come down to how well people could fallow the king or queen's orders.
Now if it were a 1 v 3 then that is what you call an ambush and nobody should fight an ambushed war.
An orc running 50% homes is an ideal breaker that's why they took the plague away from orc, it was just too powerful. And most top kingdoms have about 20% in tools science and so it's more like one is gaining 50%-60% in BE.
Edit: sorry for the long ass post.
"Clampy I once did it but it was not good for the kingdom." Only once? Have you been booted out of more than one kingdom, then? Lovely, vines.
"Mummm no one is doing what I have done." Yes, they are. They're turtling in war, and hitting overexplored n00bs for fat gains, while giving almost nothing to their kingdom.
"They are doing similar but not the same." The exact same, vines. "
The difference is how they are geting their results." You get results!?
You must have been really annoying or something for it to be 'bad for the kd', my kingdoms loved having me there this age, many of them built pure military builds and let me finance them completely. If you don't believe me just go ask them, so if it was bad for your kingdom you must have been messing it up somehow.