if undead is played right it shouldnt have hospitals
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if undead is played right it shouldnt have hospitals
Yes, it should for the exact reason that I mentioned above. Their defense is going to sink like a sack of rocks in the river when they get chained.
Undead don't lose on offense and you can retrain defense specs easy
Go ahead and let me chain them 2x as fast and we'll see how long that offense lasts.
you would actually chain them slower as they would have more buildings invested in TG, barracks and guard stations and they will be able to bounce back faster
Not more than an Orc/Cleric would have. I'm pretty sure that I'd chain him faster still ;)
By the very definition of a chain, you CAN'T train faster than they are killing. All you can do is limit the damage. When within the timeframe of two hours, their smallest provs are able to safely double tap you, and you can't attack without releasing a lot of your offense and then playing the waiting game, you're out.
You can't train Dspecs easily if you can't attack, it's that simple, especially when you have a dragon on you noming 10% of your income...and if they sent a gold dragon, you're even more screwed.
Quite an unrealistic picture you have painted there gallowmere. The undead will always be able to hit people as it should always have 100 + OPA. So unless the other KD is full of turtles the chained target should be able to TT anyone in its networth range. It should also have incoming land, GBP, lot's of GS and high rax so it's next bit of land comes in faster.
I agree gallowmere, if chained that deeply you will need to release Dspecs, and so making hospitals extremely pointless. @training if your in a good KD you will get the aid you need.
with no hospitals they wont be in nw range for long.
Kingdom with UD and hospitals: 1 chain targets in first wave, 2 if heavy NS.
Kingdom with UD, NO hospitals: 2 chain targets in first wave, no ops needed. Econ contain on all other provs from day 1, 3rd+4th targets already being NSed.
24 hours in: No hospitals = 4 "dead" provs, with hospitals = 2-3 "dead" provs. Pretty duh from there. Point isn't to end up stronger... point is to make them waste more work taking you out. No hospitals = chain by accident... oops!
BTW, the forts are for offense. If this is too confusing for you, stick to getto "chaining" anyway.
Why is everyone acting like undead run over 40DPA?
With hospitals I could chain them down to overpop, without hospitals i could chain them down to overpop.
So, when they become overpop they must release Theives and Dspecs. With hospitals you have to release more dspecs, meaning hospitals have very little effect.
No good KD Nightstikes an undead to get rid of defense
your crazy if you think they will not be able to chain 2 targets with 40DPA with or without hospitals in first wave. 2 targets per wave is minimum.
@bishop that's situational and dpsecs don't hold much NW anyway
Not really The IMP - without hospitals the undead goes to land def very fast. Everyone (t/ms included) can hit him then with spare generals so his NW stays low.
Precisely what Bishop said. I watched that monarch (and then his second heaviest hitter who was also Undead with no Hospitals) have their Dspecs tanked after 18 hits to the point where their only options were to release nearly all thieves, wizzies and a good bit of offense, or not attack.
When you only have 650 Dspecs left, are in 35%+ overpop, and have T/Ms in the other KD training some spare specs just to keep you broken, you're screwed. I watched him try to keep his offense intact by sending it out every chance he had, but in the end, he was so overpopped that he ended up having to release from 81k MO down to less than 40k just to get an attack out. Yeah, he was able to TT a suiciding small Undead we have...then the Undead waited for that guy's land to get in and then quad tapped him...and then another freshly OOP prov quad tapped him...then another. GBP is nearly useless in war, so expecting it to save you from almost non-existent defense is a horrible idea.
Would hospitals have helped under that kind of pressure? Absolutely. It also would have made me have to waste stealth on them instead of stabbing their thunderchicken that happened to be our third chain target.
when you get chained in war thats what happens hospitals or not, you just gotta hope you have enough offense and rax to keep the gains coming in.
I'm not say hospitals can not be beneficial for undeads, but on a heavy attacker imo they are mainly for maintaining offense, and so for undead they are only at most 1/2 the building they should be.
You didn't adress my point about releasing when overpop.
Edit:No? He would just had to have release more Dspecs, the same amount of theives and the same amount of offense to become 15% overpop again.Quote:
Would hospitals have helped under that kind of pressure? Absolutely. It also would have made me have to waste stealth on them instead of stabbing their thunderchicken that happened to be our third chain target.
I have just been in an Orc/Cleric vs Orc/Cleric war and i personally was down to under 1k d specs having 8k leets. Not even 50% losses could save me because i had to release so many troops being down to 200 acres, i just had to make sure i max gained and it ended up that i was able to come out of it ok.
Another good point is after 18 hits how many hospitals are you going to have left? I had about 80% unbuilt by the end of my war and even if i wanted hospitals it wasnt an option.
Whats your point about overpop? Hospitals let an active player control what they release.
Okay so say im overpop, release as many theives as i can etc etc.
With hospitals I have 5k def specs and I am 3k overpopped. 5k - 3k = 2k
Without Hospitals i have 3k def specs and I am 1k overpopped. 3k -1k = 2k
That is a basic example of what i meant - hospitals or not you need to get back to non overpopped and so you will end up with same defence anyway
Exactly. He didn't have a choice anymore. He had almost no defense left to release, so he had to drop offense. He was literally at almost land defense, and still had to release offense to get attacks off.
He's now so far out of NW range that he's not even remotely a threat. He can't even break our fresh OOP provs anymore...he, nor his flunky. They were completely done before the war was even (theoretically) halfway over.
With hospitals i just sent 2k spec at the dragon or sent 2k soldiers to someone that needed them.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Imp
Then they were doing something else wrong, seriously you overestimate the importance of hospitals if you think they are life or death for an undeadQuote:
He's now so far out of NW range that he's not even remotely a threat. He can't even break our fresh OOP provs anymore...he, nor his flunky. They were completely done before the war was even (theoretically) halfway over.
Where I come from we don't base our strats around the idea that when we get chained we can kill the dragon.Quote:
With hospitals i just sent 2k spec at the dragon or sent 2k soldiers to someone that needed them.
Edit: I seem to remember this debate coming up before involving you and someone else bishop.....
We come from different places.
Imp, you're missing the main point here. Hospitals can easily be the difference in chain speed. If your defense is dying off at a rate of say, 30% faster than it would be with hospitals, that's just more opportunity for us to switch from power hits to double/triple/quad taps. Provided that we had more clerics, we might even be able to throw in a fiver here and there.
When we can pick you off twice as fast with the same amount of offense, we're on to the next chain target all the quicker. The first chain target is a KD has a responsibility to the rest of his KDmates to hold himself up as long as possible. It's not something you can plan for, but that's how it works.
Chaining isn't about speed it's about damage and the enemy's ability to bounce back and keep his offense.
Even if it was about speed all hospitals have done in Ordrays example have saved 2k defense (both with pitfalls or 3k both without)
thats around 10% of the original 25k defense saved..... which amounts to a mere 3.5 DPA presuming the province was ~700 acres running 35 DPA.
Are you going to tell me that 3.5 extra DPA ( which is the value lost at the end of the chain...) is going to considerably slow down a chain??
Imp, that's only with pitfalls not BG, BL, or being hit by a Warrior personality. That's another 52% increase in losses. Being hit by an Orc/Warr who has BL on while you have BG and PF on will be equal to 90% higher losses, so nearly double the normal losses. If the enemy sends an Emerald then it's 119% higher.
and if you are getting chained like that then having a few hospitals can't save you
And worst case with 25% loss reduction from hospitals you're losing only 64% higher than base and not 119% higher.
It's not about being 'saved'. We've established that already.
As for your earlier question...having even 500 extra defense can slow a chain if it's the difference between a successful DT (or TT or QT) and one of them not being able to break.
It's about recovery and offence.
500, 1000, 2000 extra defence is irrelevent. If a KD wants to chain you they will, if they can't DT you they will use spare offence on the second or third chain target so at the end of the day your still getting chained.
My no hospitals only applies to undead by the way...
And that is a big reason they make the most delicious targets to chain first.
So yes...I do hope that no Undead except for the ones in my KD run Hospitals. Makes my life much easier in the long run. ;)
If you are getting chained and its THAT close to them tapping u again, all they have to do is wait for the tick for your def to drop :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallowmere
Which delays their armies by another tick whereas the lack of hospitals doesn't even have that advantage since they can do it all in the same tick.
Ok hospitals have little benefits that you keep mentioning... but look at the oppurtunity cost. Your putting 15% of a building in thats only doing half a job (protecting defence), instead you could be running GS, TG, Rax or WT.
Do any of you guys actually play undead?
I play Orc/Cleric actually :P
As do I.... and the only attacker that gets anywhere near the power of orc cleric is undead tactition....
which shouldn't run hospitals :P!!!!
I dunno, Orc/Warrior is pretty strong in war too. Either Orc will have better survivability than the UD w/o hospitals because they have potentially better offense and lower defensive losses.
Yes, I did actually play an Undead at the start of this age. Left the ghetto I was in to form my own ghetto and we needed a decent thief so I rerolled.
As for UD personality choice, I have my own little thoughts in this, because there is one personality in particular that plays to EVERY UD strength, but I'll leave that for another time. ;)
undead mystic/tactition are the only way you can play undead without nerfing yourself.
Orc/warrior is weak compared to cleric
True, but I still think it to be stronger than UD/Tact.
All attackers should run GS. Forts can be useful but are not always necessary. I would argue that GS are always necessary. War Wins is about acres gained and lost. If you take and keep more land then the enemy then you will win the war.
Halfling nonclerics shouldn't run GS, their troop losses outpace land losses.Quote:
Originally Posted by RomPat
Yeah, I rolled a halfrogue A/T a week ago after being on an 8 year break from utopia, and regretted not getting cleric the next day...
Or did you mean heavy attackers only?
Imo, the only people who should ever run forts are T/Ms and Halflings, due to the latter's 100% elite armies. My reasoning for the Halflings is the same as what Ethan's theory is on increasing offense by reducing troops needed. However, with Halflings it's much more obvious, because you can send more troops while maintaining the same defense, without having to modify you troop training regimen at all. You get better results from the DBE numbers that way, blah blah, etc.
As for GS, yeah, pretty much all attackers should run them. Higher %s if it's part of a KD wide strat, as I mentioned earlier.