Age 55 potential changes

All I know is im going to play a faery. Welcome to Utopia's A/T/M Race!
+ 30% Spell Damage (Instant Spells)
+ 20% Sabotage damage
+ 30% WPA and TPA
T - Build say .. 20% WTs , heck to be safe from halflers 25%!! No thieves can touch u, if they can, will cost them too much stealth to make it worthwhile. While u can still do as you please with any attacker or hybrid wannabe.
M - All racial spells ... nuff said
A - Just when we thought Faeries couldn't get better, -BAM- 1 general to attack with. So say .. train 1 ospa to ambush orcs/undeads who manage to break you, BOOM take it by half! Kill their elites so they wont be able to break at all! O M G And if you wanna play on the wild side, train 3ospa! You can make OOW Plunders/Learns/LAND GRAB! No matter your gain/science % Ambush is half! And if 2 are able to break (somehow) Ambush returns home faster, so BOOM and BOOM 2 of your biggest attackers attack/acres are cut in half! Thats right by half .. for those not familiar with math, thats 2 attacks doing only 1 attacks damage ! W O W
In the meantime while your army is away for 10 hours ...
15fbs greed, riot, ms (if mystic), ns , prop ( if rogue) food is gone, gc is gone, peasants is gone, troops unpaid, !aid 40k food URGENT !aid 50k gc next tick to attack!

*Example above applies with a non-retarded, capable human being, capable of using a calculator, google/bing and access to the internet.
** Example above applies with 2 attackers RELATIVELY same size attacking ONE Faery next age.

Avian:

Elite numbers: The changes to the other races elites makes Avian playable once again.
Racial bonuses: The -30% Attacks times makes sense for Avian, but I am not sure why the thievery damage bonus? It just doesn't fit into Avian...

Racial traits suggestion:

-30% attack times
+75% Birthrates
Ignores enemy forts.

+10% military combat casualties.
-10% combat gains
Cannot use war horses

Avian spellbook: Again not sure why Vermin is apart of that, it is almost useless as no one will be playing them in a Mage role.
Avian spellbook: Town watch, Mystic Aura, Fanatasicm

3 offspecs/acre won't even give you 20 opa with +20% OME and every unit on a pony. Get real paulnguyen. Faery is by no means an a/t/m.

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Originally Posted by Palem

3 offspecs/acre won't even give you 20 opa with +20% OME and every unit on a pony. Get real paulnguyen. Faery is by no means an a/t/m.

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Haha I was going to write something, but, thought I won't even waste my breath, then, Palem posts, and, I'm like: could not have said it better my self. =p

you'll see faery's ambushing land grabs though, which is interesting, but no a/t/m.

I don't think I understand the spec value exactly. Are we changing Offspecs and Defspecs from 5/0, 0/5 to 4/0, 0/4?

Didnt want to adress everything you said but

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Originally Posted by jdorje

"Towards a similar end, when both kingdom reach max hostility the option to declare will appear regardless of the kingdoms networth."

An improvement, but the meter is so high it's extremely rare that it is ever hit. The cap used to be 60 hits; would it be feasible to drop it back down to that level?

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Meter is 200 points right, Trad is 4 points so isnt the cap now 50 hits?

do we still get the free spec credit war win bonus next age??? coz if we do, then the price of UD leets is too expensive coz for a waring orc kd, we basically never use money to train leets ... n just a suggestion, it should be fun to see different weakness for every race ... every age i know, ud weakness has always been the science, orcs in t/m, dwarf in food, etc ... why not making different weakness let's say like ud in economy ...

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Originally Posted by khronosschoty

That is so not true; apparently you do not know what your talking about, or else, your slandering me.

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um

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Originally Posted by khronosschoty

your posting is the closest thing to being trumped by a faery I have experienced EVER, durring any age.

And for the record if my science was just a bit higher, I would obliterate this faery no problem.

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that was just one feary in my kd, not even the best.

I don't think the magically generated rewards is horrible, however I feel the fact that the losing KD ends up losing nothing is a bad idea.
This might encourage KDs to do the hit-and-run tactic a lot more often. Even with the current 10% honor loss, withdrawing is still a strong viable move.

I warred an orc based KD last and they pulled a max gain wave before withdraw, which easily netted them more than 10% land/honor. We actually came out negative on land, and would have lost honor too if it weren't for the 10% transfer. Consider the same situation with this new proposed change, the withdrawing KD would have ended up gaining more than we did.

I can see the general intent of this change, because yes... currently losing a war is devastating. Dropping 10% honor AND you don't gain the free credits to recover AND you lose out on the free science.

Maybe a better option would have been to offer the losing KD partial rewards. Credits to recover, lesser amount of free science. This still coincides with your intentions to encourage war, without strengthening hit-and-run tactics.

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Originally Posted by Persain

um

that was just one feary in my kd, not even the best.

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That was just the state of my province right now. And the Faery is just out of range of "being easy" otherwise ...

And the fact is: my province has nothing to do with it.. if I can see a easy formula that makes the faery easy to beat, thats all the proof there needs to be. But the fact that I've never experienced taking out faeries to be all that hard says something.

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Originally Posted by Tiffany the Invincible

Maybe a better option would have been to offer the losing KD partial rewards. Credits to recover, lesser amount of free science. This still coincides with your intentions to encourage war, without strengthening hit-and-run tactics.

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i agree ... i don't feel war win bonus makes me easier to get a war ... i mean few ages ago we can get 10 wars in one age, now we're not lucky to even have 8 ... some kd become so picky lately ... if u give the losing kd some kind of help to recover fast, maybe ppl won't be too picky or scared n we can get more wars next age

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Originally Posted by khronosschoty

That was just the state of my province right now. And the Faery is just out of range of "being easy" otherwise ...

And the fact is: my province has nothing to do with it.. if I can see a easy formula that makes the faery easy to beat, thats all the proof there needs to be. But the fact that I've never experienced taking out faeries to be all that hard says something.

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Perhaps it just says that you play against poor opponents? Considering both my kingdom and Persian's run faery we are hardly complaining about faery being overpowered because they are beating us. I guess I could also point out that both of our kingdoms have won every war.

I don't believe that halflings are an effective counter to faery because even if you can break their theives (possible I guess) it'd be way better to OP attackers with your stealth so you don't fail 50%+.

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Originally Posted by Palem

3 offspecs/acre won't even give you 20 opa with +20% OME and every unit on a pony. Get real paulnguyen. Faery is by no means an a/t/m.

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Of course that was a joke but with some truth, Palem.
Currently, faeries dont train ospec just dspec for dragon. With next age, ALL faeries will have a nice number of ospec to ambush and dragon duty. Isn't that an HUGE improvement on its own? Versatility. Now to move it a step further. What if you decide to go a little aggressive and have 5-6 ospa and be a pretty decent attacker against same NW attackers with armies out?While still having your 6 pt elite to turtle behind along with the numerous spells, etc , etc, etc. Why can't a faery be an attacker? 1 general, sure. BUT thats 1 attack, 1 unique every 10 hours more than this age. The mere fact that its POSSIBLE is miles ahead of what faeries are this age. Can they compete against attackers? Of course not, but is it an improvement? BY FAR

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Originally Posted by Palem

Having a province dedicated to breaking the "unbreakable" provs is as much of a waste as having a faery TM.

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lol. Can't believe I'm hearing this from you.

/ontopic: humans suck.

I'd like to add a small thing, didn't read all reactions.

Been warring quite a lot this age, and at one point we were facing an all-Orc KD.

As a faery/mystic I had 6 raw wpa and 140% science.

The opposing KD had their Orcs fully pumped with wpa (2.5-3 raw). I got through like 1/5 and of that like 40-50% was reflected. Orcs are simply way overpowered with the RM they have. Just imagine the gains of an Orc/Sage running libs next age...

Orcs practically have no cons as it stands. My suggestion is to remove RM and either give them higher offensive losses or remove the elite credits (lower elite cost to 750).

Last point is to perhaps change the honor-gains system. If you look at the honor charts now, nearly all top-honor provinces are Elves and Faeries.

Numbers will be tweaked, so I won't discuss them until they post the second set of changes... however:

"Winning a war will not grant any honor taken from your opponents honor pool. Monarchs will instead be able to set a kingdom reward for winning wars, this reward will be 10% honor or land generated based on your kingdoms current honor/land. The reward will be allocated more heavily towards provinces with less land/honor."

I thought wars were about risk vs reward. You take on a strong kd and if you win then you can farm them. Creating these acres from thin air will just increase the incentive for kds to run asap if they're on the losing side, instead of them trying to fight back and/or maximizing their potential return before wd'ing.

Now, I do know that I suggested that 10% of the enemy acres would be given to your kingdom if you win, half evenly dispersed and the other half for the monarch to plan with, but this suggestion is just silly. Let's say you're the no 1 honour kd in the world. All you have to do is have some friends in some super ghetto with 0 honour give you the button, and you can farm them freely while still gaining so much honour from the wd that it's silly. The top kd right now would get 10k honour from a WW, even if they fought a kingdom filled with peasants.

But it's not the only abusable part. As long as you work with acres being created from thin air with your own kingdom's size as multiplier, then you open up for some funny friendship tactics. The run for the crown could be decided by who have the most friends, since the top kd would get 25k acres for a min time war just by the WW if a friend gave them an easy war - even if the friends were a 10th of their size.

So the idea is good. However, what you have to do is use the losing kd's size or honour as modifier, and make the losing kd actually lose that as a result of them losing the war. Then you have a decent risk / reward equation with a great upside if your kingdom is a good war kd.

Having a static gain/loss for WW is a bad idea. My view is length of war, difference in size between both kingdoms from before and withdraw time should be considered in how much a kingdom gains or loses. You can also take into account the starting point and finishing point between each kingdom to further effect the exchange. I feel that you should earn more for pummeling a kingdom within +/- 10% of your kingdom persay than both kingdoms finishing closely under the same setting.

Could be something like (both kingdoms start within 10% of each other):

Kingdom A ends 5% larger than Kingdom B = 1% WW reward
Kingdom A ends 10% larger than Kingdom B = 3% WW reward
Kingdom A ends 15% larger than Kingdom B = 5% WW reward
Kingdom A ends 20% larger than Kingdom B = 7% WW reward
Kingdom A ends 25% larger than Kingdom B = 9% WW reward
Kingdom A ends 30% larger than Kingdom B = 11% WW reward
Kingdom A ends 35% larger than Kingdom B = 13% WW reward
Kingdom A ends 40% larger than Kingdom B = 15% WW reward
Kingdom A ends 45% larger than Kingdom B = 17% WW reward
Kingdom A ends 50% larger than Kingdom B = 19% WW reward

Another thing is to set minimum war time to 72 Hours instead of 48 Hours. This way kingdoms can't hit and run but also forces kingdoms to work together for a victory since bonuses end up staggered depending on the damage difference. There should be more Honor awarded awarded to kingdoms destroying kingdoms closer to their size and diminishing rewards for going outside of that window.

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Originally Posted by Bukharistan

I'd like to add a small thing, didn't read all reactions.

Been warring quite a lot this age, and at one point we were facing an all-Orc KD.

As a faery/mystic I had 6 raw wpa and 140% science.

The opposing KD had their Orcs fully pumped with wpa (2.5-3 raw). I got through like 1/5 and of that like 40-50% was reflected. Orcs are simply way overpowered with the RM they have. Just imagine the gains of an Orc/Sage running libs next age...

Orcs practically have no cons as it stands. My suggestion is to remove RM and either give them higher offensive losses or remove the elite credits (lower elite cost to 750).

Last point is to perhaps change the honor-gains system. If you look at the honor charts now, nearly all top-honor provinces are Elves and Faeries.

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Use MV maybe?
Trust me, orcs do have cons. Their stealth is close to useless (unless Tact ) and their mana is totally useless (except for the casual defensive spell).
Try fighting late-age undeads(especially clerics) with said orcs.

[21:49] <therock> We will also be adding in a number of mechanic changes to address issues and to facilitate kingdom goals via warring.
[21:49] <therock> GODDAMMIT TROLL BISHOP
[21:50] <therock> ok this discussion is cancelled because bishop is trolling
[21:50] <ata> has that ever stopped us before?
[21:50] <therock> until we know the changes it's ****in pointless
[21:50] <ata> bishop it always trolling
[21:50] <therock> goddammit
[21:50] <therock> EVERY ****ING AGE
[21:50] <ata> yes it's pointless
[21:50] <therock> EVERY AGE HE TROLLS ME

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Originally Posted by paulnguyen1229

Of course that was a joke but with some truth, Palem.
Currently, faeries dont train ospec just dspec for dragon. With next age, ALL faeries will have a nice number of ospec to ambush and dragon duty. Isn't that an HUGE improvement on its own? Versatility. Now to move it a step further. What if you decide to go a little aggressive and have 5-6 ospa and be a pretty decent attacker against same NW attackers with armies out?While still having your 6 pt elite to turtle behind along with the numerous spells, etc , etc, etc. Why can't a faery be an attacker? 1 general, sure. BUT thats 1 attack, 1 unique every 10 hours more than this age. The mere fact that its POSSIBLE is miles ahead of what faeries are this age. Can they compete against attackers? Of course not, but is it an improvement? BY FAR

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1. By it's very definition, you can't turtle if your offense is spec-based.
2. This age Faeries can very safely quad-tap chained provs. They were better "attackers" this age
3. If faeries train more offense, they have less defense and they stop being this beacon of "safety" that everyone is complaining about.
4. 5-6 ospa is still not enough enough to get you to 40 opa (attackers usually aim for 40dpa army home, but that may change with the specs changing) unless you're a warrior in war, in which case you better have more than 5-6 ospa.
5. Let's assume you DO have 6 ospa. Let's leave 5 pezzies per acre for a decent econ. If you want to be an a/t/m you need at least 4.5 tpa and 4 wpa. That leaves you with 5.5 epa -> 33dpa raw. Have fun not getting hit with that...

I will give the argument a little bit of merit though. If you get a Faery on count+ honor, it will make a pretty efficient a/t/m. But that really just proves that honor is a sucky, broken mechanic.

why not keep war rewards the way they are but give the option to seek a bonus honor or a bonus land reward? that would probably make everyone happy? Then, make sure loser gets enough help to get the on their feet by EoW CF end.

I don't really see any of the changes as an encouragement to war. IMO the mechanics changes to war this age have been some of the most positive changes ever made to the warring system. Removing the possibility of the sci reward seems entirely silly to me, on one hand claims are made about encouraging war, on the other you re-introduce the need for sustained sci pumps. It simply does not add up. Without condoning the war changes at all, as I don't believe they're neseccary in any way shape or form - I'm willing to bet that if you made sci a choice as well as land/honour that it would get picked more often than the other two with the obvious exceptions of kd's who are going for honour/nw. NOBODY likes to sit around for weeks pumping sci, attempting to avoid all conflicts with diplomacy. Yet here, that is what you have condemned us all to doing. And this is supposed to be taken as an encouragement to war? Please tell me I am missing something.

On a more personal note, which has very little, if not nothing to do with the mechanics at all: I really hate that dorfs get magic bonuses in any shape or form. "We're trying to maintain what makes each race unique" How exactly is giving perhaps one of the most magically inept races ever based in any form of fantasy a bonus to their magical capabilities "Maintaining what makes them unique"? But that is just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Beau

I don't really see any of the changes as an encouragement to war. IMO the mechanics changes to war this age have been some of the most positive changes ever made to the warring system. Removing the possibility of the sci reward seems entirely silly to me, on one hand claims are made about encouraging war, on the other you re-introduce the need for sustained sci pumps. It simply does not add up. Without condoning the war changes at all, as I don't believe they're neseccary in any way shape or form - I'm willing to bet that if you made sci a choice as well as land/honour that it would get picked more often than the other two with the obvious exceptions of kd's who are going for honour/nw. NOBODY likes to sit around for weeks pumping sci, attempting to avoid all conflicts with diplomacy. Yet here, that is what you have condemned us all to doing. And this is supposed to be taken as an encouragement to war? Please tell me I am missing something.

On a more personal note, which has very little, if not nothing to do with the mechanics at all: I really hate that dorfs get magic bonuses in any shape or form. "We're trying to maintain what makes each race unique" How exactly is giving perhaps one of the most magically inept races ever based in any form of fantasy a bonus to their magical capabilities "Maintaining what makes them unique"? But that is just my opinion.

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This does not replace the current war win rewards.

If that is actually the case then I stand corrected, and happy! Perhaps proposed changes posts could be edited to more accurately reflect that in the future so as to avoid dumbasses like me taking issue with problems that do not exist!

Unless otherwise specified, I'd assume anything would stay the same as it is this age.

BTW, lore-wise Dwarves aren't inherently anti-magic, and it doesn't matter anyway because lore is what the devs want it to be. I still think Dwarves should lose their free building and rushbuild penalties, and get reduced build costs and building destruction immunities in their place. Dwarves having free build has created balance issues ever since it came into effect many ages ago, and not being able to rushbuild is a strong penalty. Something along the lines of what I proposed in my thread would be more interesting to play with, giving dwarves another support penalty but a lot more durability on their buildings and the possibility of using rotator building strategies.

I don't see anything in the current changes that would encourage warring at the top - top still has every incentive to NAP with each other because dicing hasn't been weakened. Of course the top could ask themselves why they would agree to such generous NAP and notice terms in the first place, but it doesn't change how powerful dicing is as a means of growth compared to everything else.

You would end up with more buildings than acres nooblet

Couldn't 2 kds decide to war each other just to gain honor/land?

For example,
KD A withdraws from KD B at min time. Then they war again.
KD B withdraws from KD A at min time. Then they war again.
KD A withdraws from KD B at min time. Then they war again.
...
etc.

That would be fake warring petey and that will get both kds deleted.

even if they're trading acres/ops and all that during war time?

A war ending will grant, for both kds:
All land currently out with armies at war end returns home immediately.
Instant population growth of 20% of your max pop if you are under 50% of your max pop
+500% Birthrate
30% reduction in training costs of all troops
Draft cost reduced 50%

Winning a war will grant the following:
100 books of science per acre based on your median province
3 times your median provinces acres in spec credits
Free building credits to the total of your current unbuilt acres
AND
+10% honor taken from your kingdoms current honor
OR
+10% land generated from your kingdoms current land

How about halving the science gained to 50 bpa
and the honor down to 5% from opponents honor

then we add the monarch's choice:
either an additional 50 bpa or 5% from KD's honor or 10% land

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Originally Posted by Mal

Perhaps it just says that you play against poor opponents? Considering both my kingdom and Persian's run faery we are hardly complaining about faery being overpowered because they are beating us. I guess I could also point out that both of our kingdoms have won every war.

I don't believe that halflings are an effective counter to faery because even if you can break their theives (possible I guess) it'd be way better to OP attackers with your stealth so you don't fail 50%+.

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Indeed when your in war and you have a Sapphire Dragon and the enemy elf marquis still has to cast 19 times to get ms on you it say fearies are able to achieve much to high a wpa.

Fact is the only way a feary gets brought down is via attackers, no halfing can run the needed tpa to op a feary without instantly being chained. And a kd running enough halfings with the needed tpa (60 tpa to op a 45 tpa feary) means they have no attackers and they will loose.

Elf am NM waves with +Cap NS support?

60tpa? 45tpa? what game are you playing, champ? hope you missed some decimal points
i kinda like the changes, except for the faery losing 3 generals. i can cop it but... i'd be happier if it was only 2 generals. otherwise good.
not super happy with orcs and UDs getting elite values over 6. i was hoping for a full reversion to prior values (nothing over 6) that pretty much gave everyone the option to attack with the right build.
gw devs.

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Originally Posted by rsjabba

60tpa? 45tpa? what game are you playing, champ? hope you missed some decimal points

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no, 60 tpa wont happen, and thats the tpa needed to ns/aw a feary sitting on 45 tpa. and there are fearies sitting on 45 mod tpa.

Please provide us with the intel of these magical provinces with 45 mod TPA.

i agree. 45tpa is ridic, considering the average faery prov can't get more than 25 ppa (pop per acre) without having lots of homes, some great CFs and a mega low draft for a mega huge sci. and honour. LOTS of honour. pics or gtfo.

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Originally Posted by shyguy99

Humans
+5% Population
+ 30% Sabotage damage*
+ 40% Spell Damage (Instant Spells)
+ 1 Offense specialist strength

Tree of Gold, Fountain of Knowledge, War Spoils
Elite: 4/4, 600gc, 4NW


The Elite change is a HUGE nerf to humans. This is going to make elite units worse than garbage. The point is that they are elite, this 4/4 junk is worthless. Increase the cost, increase the NW, but dont reduce their power, with a 4/4 elite there is no reason at all to train them. Specially with 6/0 ospecs and 0/5 dspecs.

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As I say to my students, read first, ask questions later ;)

Rages faery ran about 30 mod tpa with baron honor in our last conflict. 45 tpa is easily achievable to any Faery above marquis.

The idea that you can aw or prop faery with high success is crazy, you need about 2x target tpa for high success as they are difficult ops. You are easily requiring the halfling run 45+ tpa to have moderately good success on a well played faery. That's the point damaging a faery with ops is a pipe dream.

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Originally Posted by Persain

Didnt want to adress everything you said but


Meter is 200 points right, Trad is 4 points so isnt the cap now 50 hits?

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Trad is 2 points, so the cap is 100 hits (not accounting for decay)