Proposal to end he Awar

Bour is not a nub. His kingdom is pretty ghetto though. As far as I know, BB has never denied that their steward read the cf request but did not reply.

Photographic evidence of Emeriti leader chan:
http://cdn.smosh.com/sites/default/f...-spongebob.png

Oh, see I thought in all these conversations Emeriti was claiming to be advising bour because he was a nub and did not know how to properly diplo/obtain cfs. Sorry!

No, that is not what Emeriti ever claimed.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

You are right, his messages were read and ignored, and we all agree he did act with too much haste. However, would it really have made any difference to the fundamental question if he waited longer for his messages to be ignored or if his cf request was rejected outright? If he waited 24h instead of 4h for multiple messages to be read and ignored, then would hitting and offering the land back plus extra for a cf been ok?

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...............
You are either dumb or just incredibly stupid.
Even if he had wait at least 12hours, there would have been no way to have added enough troops to be of any harm.

So if he waited 12h instead of 4h, would him hitting and offering all land back plus extra free land for a cf then been ok?

Palem you're doing the literalism thing AGAIN. No the current sides of the affair are not an alliance in the sense KLA or HAJ or whatever was back in the day. But it's two groups of kingdoms who are enemies with all members of the other group just by virtue of association. Though it could be brief, that's an "alliance" for all intents and purposes...

BTW, all the stuff that happened in those couple ****show ages with swea/rage/ama/pew/haswell etc. was at least justified on something that had happened before (the dealbreak with rage and debauchery, etc). I'm not saying those justifications were strong enough but at least they existed. In this case, on the other hand, Emeriti took the first step in ****playing. They were the rock, not the ripple. SWEA's actions that age were much farther down the Rube Goldberg machine of ****play and dealbreaks.

A more cynical approach is that noone cared what happened to debauchery because they were actioned for cheating some ages prior and everyone thought they were scum and shouldn't be in the top. That wasn't my point of view, but this is definitely how some people felt at the time.

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Originally Posted by Korp

No, but since you're a clueless nub it would be hard for you to know I guess.

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4 Kingdoms agreed to work together to take down 1 kingdom based on something they did in game.

How is that not exactly like what is happening here aside from maybe the number of kingdoms? It doesn't matter why they agreed to help, they're all working together to take out a common opponent.

Actually, don't bother responding. I'm sure in spite of my facts that I present, you'll just give out another one of your opinions and offer up nothing of actual value.

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Originally Posted by tetley

BTW, all the stuff that happened in those couple ****show ages with swea/rage/ama/pew/haswell etc. was at least justified on something that had happened before (the dealbreak with rage and debauchery, etc). I'm not saying those justifications were strong enough but at least they existed. In this case, on the other hand, Emeriti took the first step in ****playing. They were the rock, not the ripple. SWEA's actions that age were much farther down the Rube Goldberg machine of ****play and dealbreaks.

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But you're wrong in this. First, Emeriti has been ****played by both Pyro and BB in recent ages. Second, Emeriti never even intended to ****play BB. Instead all they wanted was for Bour to get a cf with Bb and not get farmed. If it was intended to be a **** play, then why would bour first ask to cf? After he asked to cf and his message was read and ignored, then he razed and simultaneously offered all land plus extra free land back. When BB contacted him, he increased his offer to also include free gold (for fat BB to train for Emeriti) and even a fake hostile so Emeriti couldn't wave BB when they exited post war. How exactly is this a **** play? BB should have came out of the situation in an improved position if they weren't such jerks about it.

This whole AWAR shenanigan seems a bit over the top. So far its just people picking sides and bending the truth to justify their actions

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Originally Posted by Palem

4 Kingdoms agreed to work together to take down 1 kingdom based on something they did in game.

How is that not exactly like what is happening here aside from maybe the number of kingdoms? It doesn't matter why they agreed to help, they're all working together to take out a common opponent.

Actually, don't bother responding. I'm sure in spite of my facts that I present, you'll just give out another one of your opinions and offer up nothing of actual value.

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I got banned for 24hrs for saying the same thing Palem, albeit in a much more realistic way. Watch out for his bum buddy Bishop to come and and start banning

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

So if he waited 12h instead of 4h, would him hitting and offering all land back plus extra free land for a cf then been ok?

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Sigh. Giving someone 12h to answer seems a lot more reasonable than less than 4 when sending a msg to a European player at 2am. Stop trying to twist words in such a way that it seems as if hitting into eowcf is fair game, it's not.

I wasn't trying to twist any words. The question I asked you was the question I posed in your quoted text that you ignored.

Everyone agrees Bour should have gave more than 4h and you probably saw the private logs of jdorje telling bour he should have gave more time too. But, considering Bour immediately offered all land plus extra back from the time he hit, it still shouldn't have been a big issue. Razing was just his attempt to make you talk to him before you were too strong for him so he could give you a reasonable amount of free land for a cf instead of get himself and his big kingdom mates completely farmed out of the top.

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Originally Posted by Palem

4 Kingdoms agreed to work together to take down 1 kingdom based on something they did in game.

How is that not exactly like what is happening here aside from maybe the number of kingdoms? It doesn't matter why they agreed to help, they're all working together to take out a common opponent.

Actually, don't bother responding. I'm sure in spite of my facts that I present, you'll just give out another one of your opinions and offer up nothing of actual value.

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Since I actually played in SWEA I consider myself having a better understanding of what went in our kingdom. What you present as facts snippets of what you picked up doing God knows what. You made stupid claims one after one, claiming SWEA was allied with Simians for example or Debauchery both kingdoms SWEA ****ed over rather bad. Pewpew was ready to vulture us in a heartbeat if the oppurtinty occured. Neither did we ever partake in the "gangbang" against AMA, we were far too busy farming the acres Pewpew gladly distributed to us.

Also, lets not forget the fact that not only one but several members of Simians, threaten me and Mansoor to come and physically beat us up cause they were so frustrated with us. But sure, we were allies cause the all knowing Palem said so.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

But you're wrong in this. First, Emeriti has been ****played by both Pyro and BB in recent ages. Second, Emeriti never even intended to ****play BB. Instead all they wanted was for Bour to get a cf with Bb and not get farmed. If it was intended to be a **** play, then why would bour first ask to cf? After he asked to cf and his message was read and ignored, then he razed and simultaneously offered all land plus extra free land back. When BB contacted him, he increased his offer to also include free gold (for fat BB to train for Emeriti) and even a fake hostile so Emeriti couldn't wave BB when they exited post war. How exactly is this a **** play? BB should have came out of the situation in an improved position if they weren't such jerks about it.

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ASF, seriously, stop claiming we ****played you because we had a wardeal set 10 days prior, with a kd in range. Them wanting to start earlier is on them, not us. Why don't you call them out for it and stop bothering us about it?

And please, if you see how ****ed up emeritis leaders are, they would never accept a 'fake' hostile lol. They'd just wave anyway

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Originally Posted by DM_Benjamin

I got banned for 24hrs for saying the same thing Palem, albeit in a much more realistic way. Watch out for his bum buddy Bishop to come and and start banning

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Thats what you fail to understand, you dont grasp the simple concept of conveying a message in civil manner. Its cute seeing you this mad, Bishop is the one thats banned me most times in the forums, that you think I somehow benefit from playing with him is hilarious. :)

Protector,
You definitely **** played us. You bypassed your notice deal with that kingdom to quick arrange a farm war to start 1h before our prior notice on them was up just because they were more friendly to you. This facilitated a deal break on us by that kingdom so you also helped them deal break us. To top it all off, you conveniently even neglected to bother to tell us that you were making a dodge war with the target we noticed until a couple hours before our wave time when we were already fully trained up, thus ruining Emeriti's chances for #1 that age.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

Second, Emeriti never even intended to ****play BB.

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ASF, come on man. I've followed the entire thing and read all the threads and all the comments.
Let's just remind everyone of this:

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Originally Posted by Emeriti Council Logs

jdorje 6:17 PM
if he's going to farm bour next
it's bour that should be razing them

jdorje 6:19 PM
so if i were bour i'd go get the cf now
with threats of postwar hitting if they refuse

cerberusv6.66 7:42 PM
give them at most 3 hours to respond
start killing if they don't answer or try to delay
imo

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I'm pretty firm in my opinion that Emeriti's counsel encouraging bour to raze into EOWCF constitutes ****play. I don't really see how anyone could disagree.

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Originally Posted by SnirpsneR

How about start with letting dorje talk for abs kd.

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not as good of a liar

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Originally Posted by Korp

Since I actually played in SWEA I consider myself having a better understanding of what went in our kingdom. What you present as facts snippets of what you picked up doing God knows what. You made stupid claims one after one, claiming SWEA was allied with Simians for example or Debauchery both kingdoms SWEA ****ed over rather bad. Pewpew was ready to vulture us in a heartbeat if the oppurtinty occured. Neither did we ever partake in the "gangbang" against AMA, we were far too busy farming the acres Pewpew gladly distributed to us.

Also, lets not forget the fact that not only one but several members of Simians, threaten me and Mansoor to come and physically beat us up cause they were so frustrated with us. But sure, we were allies cause the all knowing Palem said so.

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Screwing your allies over and doesn't mean you weren't allies. Jerks and AMA were allies, even though Jerks completely stole the crown from them.


This is gotten far off topic though. Still waiting to hear from BB why it was ok for SWEA to do these things but not Emeriti.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

Protector,
You definitely **** played us. You bypassed your notice deal with that kingdom to quick arrange a farm war to start 1h before our prior notice on them was up just because they were more friendly to you. This facilitated a deal break on us by that kingdom so you also helped them deal break us. To top it all off, you conveniently even neglected to bother to tell us that you were making a dodge war with the target we noticed until a couple hours before our wave time when we were already fully trained up, thus ruining Emeriti's chances for #1 that age.

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Didn't emeriti do this last age?

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Originally Posted by Palem

Screwing your allies over and doesn't mean you weren't allies. Jerks and AMA were allies, even though Jerks completely stole the crown from them.


This is gotten far off topic though. Still waiting to hear from BB why it was ok for SWEA to do these things but not Emeriti.

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Me saying we werent allies actually makes it so, some random poster with no insight at all in the matter has no say in it. Even though you claim you posted "facts" Your chain of thoughts might been reasonable if it was allies then ****ed over, but it was ****ing over then allies in your head. Makes no sense at all, also shows that you dont know Anri at all. :(

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Originally Posted by tetley

ASF, come on man. I've followed the entire thing and read all the threads and all the comments.
Let's just remind everyone of this:

I'm pretty firm in my opinion that Emeriti's counsel encouraging bour to raze into EOWCF constitutes ****play. I don't really see how anyone could disagree.

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Emeriti agrees that it was a mistake and did apologize and offer whatever was needed to fix it. What I mean though is that Emeriti was not trying to hurt BB. Emeriti was just wanting Bour to get himself a cf. If suggesting Bour "go get the cf now with threats of postwar hitting if they refuse" is **** play, then ok. But the intention was not for Bour to hurt BB's position, only to get a CF for himself.

This should have been clear from Bour offering extra free land for BB right from the time he hit and even increasing his offers once BB actually talked to him. If BB accepted his offer, then BB would have improved their position relative to Emeriti. Any **** play in bour trying to get a cf for himself wasn't intended to benefit Emeriti. When BB refused bours offers of free land and free gold for a cf and instead had a melt down, then they hurt their position relative to Emeriti. This was not what Emeriti expected and it's why Emeriti offered BB free land from Emeriti and modified cf terms to BB's liking and whatever else BB needed to ensure they were not hurt. This is all in addition to the 2.8x land that bour gave back compared to what he razed.

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Originally Posted by Palem

Still waiting to hear from BB why it was ok for SWEA to do these things but not Emeriti.

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Palem, Pls see my previous post for a suggestion. I actually had hoped you would respond to it. Here is a short clip:

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Originally Posted by tetley

... in this case, on the other hand, Emeriti took the first step in ****playing. They were the rock, not the ripple.

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I think you may have missed it cause I posted it as you were typing up your post.

Now that I'm thinking about it, your question isn't even directed at the right people/there is an obvious answer to your question: That stuff from the past didn't really affect BB. That's what's different between SWEA and Emeriti. In this case, they are directly affected by the razing, so it makes complete sense for them to get involved. If you want to ask why people are making "alliances" to combat ****play now, on principled grounds, then you should be asking the non-BB kingdoms who are currently involved on BB's side...

tetley, you are quoting arguments to Palem that I've already said are false in that both Pyro and Bb did **** play Emeriti first. I also made it clear that Emeriti never intended for Bb to be hurt by Bour getting a CF and the only reason it did end up hurting Bb was due to them rejecting all of Bour's offers of giving them free stuff for a cf.

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Originally Posted by Korp

Me saying we werent allies actually makes it so, some random poster with no insight at all in the matter has no say in it. Even though you claim you posted "facts" Your chain of thoughts might been reasonable if it was allies then ****ed over, but it was ****ing over then allies in your head. Makes no sense at all, also shows that you dont know Anri at all. :(

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That's actually not the case. Even if you had no intention of honor any of your deals, you convinced a small group of kingdoms to help you achieve your goals (unbeknownst to them). BB and Emeriti have convinced a small group of kingdoms to help them achieve their goal (with absolutely no benefit to the supporting kingdoms). You act like if you screw someone over in YR2 they can't agree to help you do something in YR12.

Also, I know Anri just fine. That's why SWEA's crown was so impressive, at least in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by tetley

Palem, Pls see my previous post for a suggestion. I actually had hoped you would respond to it. Here is a short clip:

I think you may have missed it cause I posted it as you were typing up your post.

Now that I'm thinking about it, your question isn't even directed at the right people/there is an obvious answer to your question: That stuff from the past didn't really affect BB. That's what's different between SWEA and Emeriti. In this case, they are directly affected by the razing, so it makes complete sense for them to get involved. If you want to ask why people are making "alliances" to combat ****play now, on principled grounds, then you should be asking the non-BB kingdoms who are currently involved on BB's side...

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So BB's official stance is that it's ok to ****play, as long as you don't ****play BB?

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

Some in emeriti thought that he should raze to force cf talks if he was being ignored or rejected. I don't disagree with you.

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Ok.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

Technically he waited 4 hours. We agree this was too short. In that 4 hours though, he had his request read by the steward and ignored. He then sent new messages to all the BB prvinces who were online asking them to get a leader to contact him urgently. These messages were also read and not responded to.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

You are right, his messages were read and ignored, and we all agree he did act with too much haste. However, would it really have made any difference to the fundamental question if he waited longer for his messages to be ignored or if his cf request was rejected outright? If he waited 24h instead of 4h for multiple messages to be read and ignored, then would hitting and offering the land back plus extra for a cf been ok?

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The post I originally replied to stated that bour razed because his messages were ignored. I've said that it's dishonest to call it that if he waited for only 3-4 hours. Even if they were opened.
No had he waited 12 hours before razing that would not make it justifiable in my eyes, yet saying diplomacy attempts were "ignored" have held more merit.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

The longer he waited, the more time BB had to prepare and then train up. His only leverage was catching BB as early after their explore as he could so that BB couldn't just train and farm him.

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There is a SoM op to check that, has he before razing? Were BB training up to raze him? Not too difficult to track nw for potential provs to SoM, Seems like there were only few in range anyway.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

You can decide to call it that but that's really not what it was. You didn't see the talk about Bour being excited to be #1. You didn't see all the discussion about Emeriti not being happy to be cf'd with "farms" when BB wasn't. The player you say commanded hits in 3h is not even an Emeriti leader and Bour has NEVER taken commands from this player. Advice, perhaps, although technically he hit 4h later after being ignored.

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Fair enough, I have no absolute truth nor wisdom, I may be in the wrong. You are resorting to asking me for trust and to believe your word, even while the evidence point the other way.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

And where do you play? Why is it you try and criticize my posts that actually are factual while you don't criticize the blatant lies including fabrication of fake logs by BB's side?

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There is a reason there is a saying in the court to say "all the truth"
While you're not lying you do omit and obscure whatever you don't like.

I would gladly criticize bombdigie in that thread, alas I don't post often and so I didn't. I have however got sucked into this thread (replying to someone else).
As stated before, I see both parties guilty of some things. What you mentioned about BB deal breaking and so on, I can criticize this as well, if you wish.

But see I wasn't criticizing Emerity council / bour for the razes into eowcf, same as I haven't said much about BB dealbreak. I was stating my dislike for the way you twist words to obfuscate reality.
You aren't lying, but not telling the truth either.

As for bombdigie, you can't expect leadership to control the words of every grunt in their "alliance". Unless you have evidence he was directed by his leadership?
In fact you don't:

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

I don't know what random players posted in your war forum, but no, Emeriti leadership does not believe there is anything wrong with exploring in post war.

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Bottom line: I'm not judging who's good guy and who's the bad. But it so happened that stars aligned and I found myself saying I find low propaganda tasteless.

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That's actually not the case. Even if you had no intention of honor any of your deals, you convinced a small group of kingdoms to help you achieve your goals (unbeknownst to them). BB and Emeriti have convinced a small group of kingdoms to help them achieve their goal (with absolutely no benefit to the supporting kingdoms). You act like if you screw someone over in YR2 they can't agree to help you do something in YR12.

Also, I know Anri just fine. That's why SWEA's crown was so impressive, at least in my eyes.

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Oh please stop your speculating. We didnt convince anyone, there was no need. AMA did a very fine job of making their own enemies. I am not saying it wasnt very good for us, but that ganbang on AMA would have had happend with our without our involvement. Even then, AMA if they wanted could have easily poached the crowns from us but Elit stood by his principles.

As said previously you lack a lot of information to make any sound claims on this matter.

SlightlyOverdosed,

People already complain my posts are too long. You say I am omiting things, but I'm not sure what those things are. I've stated many times that Emeriti messed up in advising bour to get a cf by razing BB if they wouldn't cf him. It's BB's side that likes to omit things like that bour offered all land back plus extra right from the start even before Bb contacted him. They don't like to mention that Bour also offered them free gold to prep for Emeriti and they don't like to mention that Emeriti also offered them more free land and whatever else they needed.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

SlightlyOverdosed,

People already complain my posts are too long. You say I am omiting things, but I'm not sure what those things are. I've stated many times that Emeriti messed up in advising bour to get a cf by razing BB if they wouldn't cf him. It's BB's side that likes to omit things like that bour offered all land back plus extra right from the start even before Bb contacted him. They don't like to mention that Bour also offered them free gold to prep for Emeriti and they don't like to mention that Emeriti also offered them more free land and whatever else they needed.

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i'm gonna go rob a gas station and just tell them that i'll pay it back + interest, so they shouldn't call the cops or anything.

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Originally Posted by Korp

Oh please stop your speculating. We didnt convince anyone, there was no need. AMA did a very fine job of making their own enemies. I am not saying it wasnt very good for us, but that ganbang on AMA would have had happend with our without our involvement. Even then, AMA if they wanted could have easily poached the crowns from us but Elit stood by his principles.

As said previously you lack a lot of information to make any sound claims on this matter.

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What am I speculating? Are you more informed in the diplo that your monarch did than your monarch. I'll quote it again

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Mansoor meanwhile talked to pewpew, simians and haswell telling them that only way for SWEA to crown is to raze the infidels in AMA.

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Originally Posted by Akkadian/Taylor

i'm gonna go rob a gas station and just tell them that i'll pay it back + interest, so they shouldn't call the cops or anything.

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Yes that's floggers argument he has used to help all those who already were happy to gb Emeriti to feel good about themselves while doing it.

Does anyone here really think that a ghetto prov trying to obtain a cf by hitting a kingdom and immediately offering extra land back in Utopia is the same as robbing a gas station in rl? If what he did was a real crime, then he'd have been deleted. He didn't deal break (he was trying to GET a deal, not break one.)

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Originally Posted by flogger

Im just saying bour's pretty much lied about everything so far this age, so I'd be careful hitching your horse to him saying he messaged 5 dudes, if I had to guess he didnt

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In fact, I haven't lied about anything. I have been truthful to everything that happend and I recognized my wrongs.

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Originally Posted by Palem

What am I speculating? Are you more informed in the diplo that your monarch did than your monarch. I'll quote it again

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So speaking to kingdoms is all it takes to be allies for you? Interesting, ofc Mansoor added fuel to the fire but you give him too much credit if you think he was the mastermind behind it all. All those kds were pissed off at AMA on their own.

cts are simple once you remove asf web of lies.

asf kd, emeriti, fake rage, abs whatever you want to call them. This kd is made up of the dirtiest players in the game. So many of them are guilty of continuous cheating and manipulation for game rules age after age. They orchestrated the entire **** play on bb. they deliberately planed and had their ghetto abs friend hit bb in eowcf and push them to react and than immediately began spewing their lies to the cover up.

This abs kd is loaded with cheaters and players with the lowest ethical play in the game.

They started the whole thing. there are now pages of lies under numerous threads all though our the forum.

If zauper, munk or anyone else really disagreed with what went down they should have left.

The only solution is complete annihilation of every abs player and sympathizer on the server.

anyone who thinks this can be handled though diplo is fooling themselves it will only rear it's ugly head next age again.. just kill it and be done with it.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

Yes that's floggers argument he has used to help all those who already were happy to gb Emeriti to feel good about themselves while doing it.

Does anyone here really think that a ghetto prov trying to obtain a cf by hitting a kingdom and immediately offering extra land back in Utopia is the same as robbing a gas station in rl? If what he did was a real crime, then he'd have been deleted. He didn't deal break (he was trying to GET a deal, not break one.)

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I don't know, gas stations get knocked off all the time. Can't rememember any top kingdoms getting targetted in end of war in the past 7 years straight I've played.

Also, enough with offering gold back. It took us about a day to find out it was emeriti. 24 hours of premature drafting is worth about 50 million gcs kingdom wide. Bourreau couldn't give us 50 mil back. Before that we were just drafting to kill Bour ourselves.

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Originally Posted by flogger

I don't know, gas stations get knocked off all the time. Can't rememember any top kingdoms getting targetted in end of war in the past 7 years straight I've played.

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I can't help your bad memory. Has happened a lot.

The better example here would be something more like you're sitting at the dinner table eating your pizza and someone asks you to pass the red pepper. You are busy in conversation and ignore them. They ask the guy next to you to get your attention but still the red pepper is not passed. Another guy suggests that the guy wanting the pepper grab your pizza to get your attention. Finally the guy grabs your slice of pizza out of your hand and offers to give it back plus a piece of his own pizza if you'll pass the red pepper. Instead of passing the pepper, you throw over the dinner table and refuse the apologies and offers to buy you a whole new pizza by the guy who took your slice of pizza and the guy who suggested it.

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Originally Posted by flogger

Also, enough with offering gold back. It took us about a day to find out it was emeriti. 24 hours of premature drafting is worth about 50 million gcs kingdom wide. Bourreau couldn't give us 50 mil back. Before that we were just drafting to kill Bour ourselves.

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I call BS on this. All of it. Not only did you know it was Bour quite early, but it was also irrelevant to whether you just accepted the free land he offered you right from the start BEFORE you drafted anything.

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Originally Posted by Palem

So BB's official stance is that it's ok to ****play, as long as you don't ****play BB?

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Is your real contention that BB has ****played Emeriti?
I would suggest that when you ask someone to raze into another KDs eowcf, you open the door to punishment, i.e. being razed into war and eowcf yourself... or should they have turned the other cheek according to you?

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Originally Posted by tetley

Is your real contention that BB has ****played Emeriti?
I would suggest that when you ask someone to raze into another KDs eowcf, you open the door to punishment, i.e. being razed into war and eowcf yourself... or should they have turned the other cheek according to you?

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tetley, aren't you a lawyer? Shouldn't you know that not lieing and keeping deals are important? Flogger admits to making a deal with Emeriti with the intention all along of breaking it. He then intentionally and fully violated the deal without warning. He sent a dragon into a kingdom in real war against his ally. He then full waved into that war and started raze killing chains. This is clearly ****play to the highest degree. You're blowing a guy razing into post war and offering all land back plus extra for his own cf way out of proportion.

Flogger was not deal broke and he was immediately offered all land back and more by the prov who did it. They later agreed to give 2.8x the land back to BB. Emeriti also apologized and offered BB whatever free land BB felt needed along with whatever cf adjustment BB felt needed to ensure they were not harmed relative to Emeriti. Do you know what "turn the other cheek" means? If so, you should know this was nothing like that at all.