too much spam to wade through, if someone wants to gather up the questions I'll address em. Otherwise, i'm gonna answer stuff from here forward.
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too much spam to wade through, if someone wants to gather up the questions I'll address em. Otherwise, i'm gonna answer stuff from here forward.
What is the best way to find a target to attack or steal from? I used to use a site where you could search provinces by land, nw, nwpa etc and also by how close they are to your island.
The best targets to steal from would be scanning the top land charts and going from there. Most whore kingdoms stock immense resource piles to prepare for conflict and their tpa is often not great. Try dwarf kingdoms as they have a thievery penalty to make things easier.
(Complete noob talking here) If I wanted to go avian/merchant, with the goal of just being a fair-sized, effective attacker, how should I go about doing that? What army composition should I go for, where should I pour my science, what is a good TPA/WPA? Is there any general thought process that I should have?
Same as above + what would be your typical War strat?
Hi Realest, I really like the max-gains-all-war strat. Because adopting such a strat seems to entail a significant paradigm shift, I would appreciate your thoughts on how the manner in which individual provinces are currently managed (in most noob to semi-pro kingdoms) must change to suit the strat.
As an example, many kingdoms tend to think of *rebuilding* as something that only happens after the war. This means that they would not properly utilise the awesome land-gains advantage of the max-gains-all-war strat. Am I right to think that to be effective in a max-gains-all-war strat, provinces should focus on building up their incoming acres while in the heat of battle?
Also, one immediate limitation to the max-gains-all-war strat seems to be that the opposing kingdom can blanket fireballs/kidnaps, so that the extra land gained would not be of much use. What would be the best response to such a tactic?
PS. @tpyo: nice typo in your username :P
You need to work on a rewards system so people will ask better questions.
My KD is currently (on our 5th war of the age) trying out the max gains strategy. One of the evolving problems is of course growing into your acres! One of the ways we have subsidized this is having the 2-3 provinces that have been chained release troops and send soldiers to our guys that have grown.
We are up almost 200k NW now and 1.9k acres on them, but the fact that they have fully disabled 2 provinces with chains, and that although the rest of us have grown on them, leaves me with an odd feeling. Do we keep growing? or do we cap our acres and start massacring. Max gaining makes it easy to gain a ****-ton of acres, some of us could gain around 1k alone, but at that point the NWPA is going to be around 110 and very difficult to actually grow into the acres.
I would just love some more insight into how to properly pull off this strategy. REALEST: feel free to PM me if you'd like instead of posting here. I've recieved some awesome advice from you in PM's in the past and in the midst of this war i'm in could really use some now, since we are "winning" but in an awkward spot.
No fair DDodge, I asked first :P
I asked better ^_^
And more relative since I'm right in the thick of things!
Good question, and the best response I can give you in terms of building your acres is that it depends. But yes, you always build your acres. In a nutshell, you can't go wrong with Homes, Banks, Forts to solidify your standing and acres. Then, upkeep rax and TG as necessary. This is where experience has to come in and you decide what works. Maybe, you wanna rotate in WT if your kd decides this is the thing to do. However, banks rule because nothing beats cold hard cash, and forts are better than TG, if you didnt have any to begin with. Homes will fill up some of your population that is bound to be undermanned.Quote:
Originally Posted by hydroxon
Your thinking is kind of amiss in regards to ops. Whether or not you max gain, there will be provinces subjected to them. If you are underpopped, it no longer matters if its by 20K or 30k or 40K. However, with a larger peasant base, you technically have a bit more leeway to withstand ops. Ultimately, land is power, and you cant go wrong with the potential it brings.
I'd need to see the kdpages to tell you more. Because if they managed to disable 2 provinces, and you have not wrestled away an advantage with your other provinces, you might be making some wrong decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by DDodge
For example, you dont want to have your guys release troops -EVER-, unless its because of overpopulation. It doesnt make sense to make your enemy's job easier in taking down your provinces, yea?
Another problem might be you didn't pick the right buildings to build on your first wave of land. On that note, You might have gone into war without the proper setup.
Nevertheless, the fact that you are up acres and land should prove to you that this strat works and you are trending in the right direction. Its about making the strategic choices to push that advantage that makes you scratch your head. I can tell you all sorts of things, but you have to learn this on your own through experimenting so you know what to do and what not to do next time. There is no 2 wars that are alike even if you get the same outcome in the end.
There are a lot of factors that need to be addressed and I can't really tell you based on what you wrote. PM me your loc and I'll tell you what to do next.
is it an attacker for warring, or one that just annoys people?Quote:
Originally Posted by tpyo
Thanks Realest, and nice answers indeed.
Sharp criticism! Hmm, I did realise the fact that those ops would be done whether or not I max-gain. Was thinking in terms of the extent that blanket fireballs/kidnaps would decrease my incentive to max-gain. Through your response, I understand that if the enemy only subjects a few of my kingdom's provinces to fireballs/kidnaps, it would be a mere minor irritant, and the rest of my kingdom would still benefit greatly from max-gaining.Quote:
Originally Posted by Realest
However, I imagine that the benefits of a max-gain strat could be significantly diminished by an opposing kingdom that is built to consistently blanket my whole kingdom with fireballs/kidnaps.
Because most buildings are %-based, more land does not directly improve building bonuses. The very powerful potential of a max-gain strat seems based on the fact that more land = higher population ceiling, meaning the max-gaining kingdom can really grow their peasants, which immediately leads to exponentially higher income (since peasant-growth is %-based), along with a gradual increase in Building Efficiency. That's why it seems that a smart opponent would spend their mana/stealth on fireballs/kidnaps.
My main intention was to point out that when playing against an opposing kingdom that already plans to blanket fireballs/kidnap my kingdom anyway, the max-gains strat might work less effectively than if my kingdom was fighting an enemy that is incapable of limiting our peasant-growth. In spite of the above concerns, it does appear to me that ultimately, max-gaining is probably still the best strat that a kingdom could employ in war. At this point, I think I just realised that fireballs/kidnaps are probably an even smaller concern because of how much the max-gaining provinces would outgrow the enemy T/M's, especially after they are trad-marched down to size anyway (I wonder if you prefer to leave T/M's alone or trad them anyway?).
Thank you for your time :D
PS. Looks like the Merchant personality would work extremely well with the max-gains strat, which is all the more reason to play Merchant. Having said that, do you think the Shepherd personality might be a decent alternative, given the fact that it saves you some money in the short-term (cheaper buildings), and buildings build faster so their benefits are felt significantly earlier? Also factor in the free food from all that land, along with immunity to plague/storms/drought, and Shepherd might seem like a competitive alternative (immunity to storms could be a valuable bonus if the enemy has the capability to MV+Storms our provinces).
Its situational, but for the most part, hitting t/ms to start are bad business. They simply have too much defense to make it worth your while. If you can break t/ms, might as well spend your hostile massacaring them, to reduce the effectiveness of peasant stunting tactics.
I think you're understanding the big picture. Even though everyone runs their own province, war is ultimately a team thing. If one province is receiving the brunt of ops, it means the others are relatively at peace. If the ops are spread out where everyone eats a little, then your enemy is wasting time and you have nothing to fear. The idea behind max gaining all war like you said, is to create the buffer zone between you and enemy, and after you open up a myriad of options, you adapt and adjust. For example, sometimes people see the gains disparity and overextend, then you can quickly choose to semi-chain that target. Max gains all war is not rigid; if you see a situation that calls for making less than optimal max gains, you still do it if you feel it will help you in war.
Merchant is just too good, because it gives you more powerful banks and econ wins wars. The fact you are immune to income penalties is gravy. Your kingdom would then raise cash to continually drake your enemy. Nothing beats cold hard cash. Immunity to Storms/Drough comes in a very cheap spell call NB, so its not really that good. Plague I agree is annoying, but the trade off is too much versus Merchant.
Thanks again Realest; I really appreciate the thoughtful and well-reasoned answers.
I was slightly worried of an opponent T/M MV'ing off my NB and casting storms after that. If done well, that might be a real pain to the max-gains strat. Though, ultimately it's up to my kingdom to weigh the odds of that happening, so I don't expect you to respond to this :)
Your answers sound great! .. I also remember your comment about Merchant personality being active 24/7, while the usefulness of Shepherd (and Cleric, etc, for that matter) bonuses can really vary depending on circumstances. So yeah, Merchant does look like the clear winner now.
New question: What is your approach to oversending on attacks to improve chance of success (in both the cases of either using intel taken by halfers or otherwise)? More specifically, by what % do you oversend in each situation? As far as I know, many players are quite confused over this issue, and consequently bounce some of their attacks without really knowing what they did wrongly.
Also, how important is it to use halfers' intel as much as possible?
lol I think half the server will be merchant next age
Have others copied your max-gains strategy? and did you really come up with it? Utopia's been around a while, I feel like someone would have thought of it...
if you get stormed, its not the end of the world, find a kdmate to drought you, which should be easy to do. Also, if the enemy is using up their mana/runes/mages to MV you, thats resources that could be spent elsewhere (fireball, nado, etc.). If they MV for the purpose of storming you, you'd have to think theyre not that efficient with their resources. The idea is not to be immune to everything; its about making the proper trade offs to maximize your effectiveness. If they want to go to such lengths to do something, let them. You'll captilize.Quote:
Originally Posted by hydroxon
Oversend 7% on nonhalfer intel which you got with 20% thieves +1, oversend 3% on halfer WAR intel. Using halfer WAR intel is really preference; if youre really tight on hitting or multi-tapping, then you'd want more precision. If you're just hitting once either way, send that extra 500 units; not like those 500 units will make or break whether you are unbreakable :p
I dont claim to be the inventor of this strategy. Utopia culture ebbs and flows. Before the current era of "chaining" and "hybrids", where there was super high attack times and so forth, the mechanic was all about max gaining. What is effective will slowly prevail to the masses; the smart and good players adapt quickly, while the less competent straggle and lag behind. Its the nature of the food chain.Quote:
Originally Posted by kbone
Watch top wars; you'll notice the good sucessful kds adopt a similiar approach, while the kds that struggle age in and age out are because they dont innovate.
Ooops, using drought to cancel storms.. I totally forgot about that; thanks! Also nice explanation using concept of allocative efficiency (and opportunity cost).Quote:
Originally Posted by Realest
My calculation for non-halfer intel is 1.035 / 0.965 * 0.97 / 0.97 = 1.07254 (thanks for confirming the 7% rule),
and with halfer WAR (nice reminder) intel, it's same as above but without the " / 0.97 " at the end, which is roughly oversend 4%, according to http://wiki.utopia-game.com/index.ph...Offense_to_Win
Is there a reason behind going 1% less than what wiki recommended?
Your explanation on using halfer WAR intel only when precision is needed for tight hits is great advice as well ... actually that's what I thought too, but it's always good to hear it from the expert :)
Oh, in that case, 4% is right, use that for halfling war intel.
Cool! Mere words cannot express my gratitude :P
not a problem, glad i could help
"The idea is not to be immune to everything; its about making the proper trade offs to maximize your effectiveness. If they want to go to such lengths to do something, let them. You'll captilize."
One missing apostrophe and a minor misspelling notwithstanding (that I'd have never noticed without spell check, tbh), this is perhaps the best advice I've seen. It's the guiding principle behind target dpa, target tpa/WTs, econ, target selection, basically everything in the game. It even has a semicolon, a much neglected tool for conveying a good thought. I used to assume Realest was halfway jerking everyone's chain with these things, but I'm changing my mind on that.
While here, thought I'd post up two questions, partially related to that opportunity cost concept.
1. When do you switch to rob/kidnap(/ToG/prop?) in place of NS or other direct damage? Is the trigger related to the "overgrowing problem" in max gains? If you never switch, what else is acceptable to give up to try to grow into the land? I think you mentioned homes for BR in max gains, despite conventional wisdom saying never build homes in war.
2. Sage vs. Merch - I gather you are a fan of Merchant, far more than I. But I'm wondering how/why you justify giving up the pop and income (and BE) bonus of sage for only income bonuses? Even in a max gain setting, I'd think sage makes a good showing, but I'd guess you disagree, at least in part.
screw that octobrev, suplement your income with gold you rob from farms.
I hope next age a KD runs 20-22 elfs with the goal of fireballing ~15 provinces at once. With the huge mystic bonuses there is no reason you couldn't except that an active kd would rape your runes hard.
You can weight whats better, having more peasents and training lots of troops, or chaining and training less troops on less land but forcing some to be aided back into the picture...
Both are valid concepts but with how difficult they have made chaining and a lack of a raze to eliminate a province compleatly, the added earnings per peasent a few ages ago and the huge econ bonus currently on merchant it does seem like a better time then ever to max gain all war.
I have always thought total peasents is one of the most important factors in a war... also a huge reason why banks are so uber.
Good strategies are not rigid, and 5% homes to convey some BR bonus is a minimal investment that pays itself off quite well. The thing with homes is not to enter war with them, because they cause too much flux within your province to make it worth it. However, phasing in 5% from 0% is very good. You can run the math if that makes you more comfortable, but qualitatively, more peasants is more money, more soldiers, more nw, which propel other aspect of your province.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan
1. In terms of using NS vs other ops, this really depends on your war. In most cases, you can't go wrong with NSing stuff, and when when you begin to dominate your opponent so much that you no longer need to NS to open targets up, then feel free to rob resources, burn GS, kidnap and so on. There's no set railway path or checklist that you do when you go to war. Every event opens up new options, and you just have to make the call based on experience or at least approach it logically.
2. Im a huge fan of Sage also but the problem with Sage is that the start up is slow, and you don't really utilize it to its full potential until at least midage or so, assuming skilled management of the personality. Merchant is easy and dummy proof, and its hard to go wrong with cold hard cash. You're right, in a vacuum on paper, Sage works out to be superior, but the investment is much greater (mainly time). If you have the patience, and your kingdom goals/setups can complement you, Sage is not a wrong choice. I'd pick Merchant personally and thats just utopia. There's no right answer, just a best answer depending on context.
bump, my greatness deserves top spot.
Sorry, troll-impulse at work here... Ethan, there is a certain irony in pointing out a misspelling while making a misspelling in the same sentence; "advise" should be spelt "advice" (the reason for which I shall leave for you to find out on your own) :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Ethan
"Best advise [sic] [you've] seen"? It's not too late to start noticing now where all the real advice is coming from :D
Oh and on a non-trolling note, your questions and the subsequent answers really benefited my understanding. Thanks :)
Oooh Realest, could you elaborate on the kind of flux that homes cause within a province (and why it is harmful)?
cash is king - end of story (IRL and here)
If the kingdom you are warring has a bank (not necessarily a pro bank) but you don't, how can you beat them?
I will not dispute that Av is the best race when playing at a high level, if for no other reason than hit volume wins wars. However, at a casual level there are many players who have (either externally or self-imposed) time constraints that would limit them to say 2 hits a day (before / after work, after getting up / before going to sleep, etc).
Obviously such players / KDs are never going to challenge for significant honours, but so long as they are playing with people with equal constraints (i.e. they're not wrecking other peoples chances in the charts) and are smart enough to play against people with similar constraints (i.e. they don't loose every war by being constantly outhit by people who can put out more hits per capita) then I see no real problem with that; indeed they're a good source of 'feeding' in the upward flow of land.
My question, however, is whether Av is still the best race choice under such conditions, as the major benefit (speed and hence hit volume) is negated?
I assume that +AT could be selected when making hits to produce the desired return time with a handy % gains boost to the hits (as Max Gains would appear to be de rigueur based on your posts), but are there 'better' / equally effective alternatives under said conditions?
(On an entirely random aside, do you know what happened to Captain Obvious from the old swirve boards?)
Apologies in advance for the double post, but it has just dawned on me that there were a plethora of no doubt ‘dumb’ questions I could ask to further my own limited understanding:
1) Given that we haven’t had land based gains for a long-ass time (and hence how much power you can fit into acres has been replaced by how much power you can fit in each nw point), how come most people still refer to OPA / DPA and not OPnw and DPnw? Is it just that per acre is a good enough approximation to get by, and that per net worth is too fluctuating and too much of a pain in the ass to calculate on a frequent basis?
2) What are suitable WPA / TPA (or Pnw) for a pure attacker? I’ve always (much to the ridicule of many) maintained a decent level (usually 3 or 4 mod) at the expense of some ppa / opa. I’ve never contended that it’s a good defence against pure t/ms (who will get through anyway) but it does keep the Hybrids off your back. I appreciate that you’re not pro-hybrid anyway, but there’s still plenty knocking about… So should I just accept that I’m wrong and living in the past (when I played most actively there was an abundance of Elf and Ud a/ms) or is there an argument to be made for having enough wizzies / thieves to be a deterrent against hybrids?
3) In terms of t/m’s do you prefer an actual hybrid t/m or someone who specialises much more heavily in one or the other? When I first started playing it seemed that ‘super’ (or even ‘uber’) thieves or mages (at least in the terminology of the KD I played in) were common, whereas actual mixed t/ms where in limited supply… Would it be reasonable to assume that t/ms are better against pure attackers due to the fact that you can be successful with lower mod numbers? And that conversely you need to be putting up much better mods when facing hybrids? Or is there an argument to be made for always focussing in one and then cramming in as much def as you can to account for the fact that pure attackers will be more likely to break you?
4) How come people get so touchy about ‘bottom-feeding’ and there is such a stigma about it, particularly in the mid to lower tier KDs? I get that being constantly hit by people who you can’t retal is somewhat soul destroying, but it would seem relatively obvious (even to me) that in order to allow for the game to function in a format where people can continue to grow throughout the age that land would have to flow from the bottom upwards; otherwise growth would stagnate at some point effectively creating a cap on what someone / a KD could achieve and thus allowing other KD’s to claw them back as the age progressed.
5) Raze or Mass tm’s during a Hostile (or even leave them alone)?
6) Taking into account the fact you don’t like chaining, but that it is still relatively common (at least at some levels of play) what is the best method for dealing with being chained? I suppose there a case to be made for not worrying about it as long as the KD as a whole is on top, but it often seems people don’t know how to recover from being chained or panic too much whilst being chained; so any insight would be much appreciated?
7) Banks at top levels seem to work well, but I’m guessing at lower levels of play they’d be a complete waste; would just be free resources for the various KD’s above them that could feed on them from what I see. Is there a case to be made for a middling warring KD to run one, or is it simply just a hideous waste of what could be another attacker?
8) Attackers getting their own intel or an active Halfer ‘wasting’ stealth on getting it all?
that's a lot of questions.
I just asked one.
I'm lazy. I applaud the willingness to learn but ****, that huge wall of text is daunting.
Realest, if lame kds and bad setups are farmed out of the top 10, how did fratzia almost win first last age as undead?
Well to be fair a lot of text is mostly to explain why I'm asking the question to avoid responses (not from you) of "STFU noob" or "you'll never win a crown like that". And likewise to encourage detailed responses, as the actual answer to the questions is less important than the reason why that is the answer (in terms of understanding the mechanic being more important than a one-word current response... teach a man to fish and all that)Quote:
Originally Posted by Realest
Perhaps the below is a less intimidating version of the Q's:
1) If you can only log / hit twice a day is Av still best?
2) OPA / DPA or OPnw / DPnw
3) A decent TPA / WPA for an attacker? Is keeping 3 to 4 mod to deter Hybrids just a compete waste?
4) t/m's with (relative) lower mods of each and lower (relative) def or specialist thieves and mages with higher mods in one and higher def?
5) Bottom-feeding, why so much hate? Surely the flow of land from bottom to top is a necessary mechanic to ensure that people can grow all age?
6) Enemy tm's pre-war (or in a wave) - Raze, Mass, Learn or Ignore?
7) Chaining - How to best deal with being chained? (whilst it hapens and recovering once its happened)
8) Bank for mid- to lower- tier KD's; pointless waste of resources lost to bigger KD's or still useful against people in same range as you?
9) Attackers getting own intel vs tm's 'wasting' stealth to keep them updated?
lol! He/She signed up just to ask as well ... I wouldn't be bothering trying to simply answer, i'd be answering and recruiting :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Realest
I dont have a problem with recruitment. I tend to have more players than invites