The bottom is hot

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Originally Posted by Binar

http://i.imgur.com/LlG2LoR.gif

Spartans right now

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#missUbinbin

Beans and Bart: Are they the same person?

Is Divinity the flagship top kd now?

Where's that recruitment thread brb

they claim not to be. But seeing how there are several new accounts in these discussion and all defend/side with/praise Spartans it wouldn't surprise me if they were all the same person

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Originally Posted by Persain

@beans or bart or whoever u are now. per your request http://pastebin.com/EVneAiym is the entire 2 hour conversation i had with heaven since the stuff i posted made him look bad and he wanted to spin it.

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[Thursday 19/11/2015][11:14] <Heaven> we wanted to make a point aswell --> dont' wave us when we give you a free CF when u were in a weaker position

... and there it is.

I don't know why you posted that conversation, Persain. It hurts your narrative's credibility.

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Originally Posted by Feint

Beans and Bart: Are they the same person?

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No.

well if you expect something in return(in this case apparently an unsaid promise not to wave) it's not really free. In which case it would probably be good to let the other party know what you expect rather assume they know the terms you put on that cf.

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Originally Posted by jo.t.reid

[Thursday 19/11/2015][11:14] <Heaven> we wanted to make a point aswell --> dont' wave us when we give you a free CF when u were in a weaker position

... and there it is.

I don't know why you posted that conversation, Persain. It hurts your narrative's credibility.

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they asked us for that cf it was termless and to stop "randoms'. I dont know how that gets at any narrative. We were in eowcf and they were 2k acres smaller than us. It was meant to allow us to "discuss a possible war". I'd of been fine without it at all.

did u even bother to read it all

[Thursday 19/11/2015][11:14] <Heaven> we wanted to make a point aswell --> dont' wave us when we give you a free CF when u were in a weaker position
01[Thursday 19/11/2015][11:14] <PersainCAT> you asked us for that cf
01[Thursday 19/11/2015][11:14] <PersainCAT> not the other way around
01[Thursday 19/11/2015][11:14] <PersainCAT> there was no "Free cf"

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ed

It's almost like you're saying that not only does my kingdom suck, but I am an absolute idiot.

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Let me help.

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Originally Posted by jo.t.reid

Come again? We make those deals so as to not do long-lasting damage to both our kingdoms, unless both of us wants to spend 2 weeks on 90% guilds wpa pumping what wiz we lost (our war with Hipmunks being an exception... they refused that part of war terms which we suggested). We're always totally up front with the fact that we're not a ghetto. And we don't simply wave the f*** out of a kingdom, just because we can *looks at dicks/divinity*, unless they initiate a hostilities without diplo.. Why do you think we have had only four wars this age? Our goal for this age was to WW crown again, ffs!! We spent over two and a half god damn weeks in pump mode after our war with Hipmunks, with NO surprise waves on ghettos, with Bart/Heaven pming everyone within our kingdom range (we were ~57k acres, I think?? Please correct me) asking to see whether they'd war us. He was always honest and up front.

Did he lose his **** in Spartan LINEapp channel when the billionth kingdom turned him down for war? Yes (lolol). Did he go postal and surprise wave a ghetto? No.

Get your facts straight, Leonidas.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ed

Well it is personally aggravating to me, Leonidas that you keep calling my kingdom Ghetto, and assume that the terms I discussed with Bart only benefitted Spartans. It's almost like your saying that not only does my kingdom suck, but I am an absolute idiot. I will admit I was naïve when it came to negotiations, because I assumed that no growth after war is agreed and no PK'ing was a given that did not need to be negotiated, but one of your buddies taught me otherwise. What Bart offered was a friendly, clean war where someone surrenders once there is a clear winner. Afterwards, he would give us feedback on how we could improve. Since his actions were nothing but honorable after we backed out of the war at the last minute, I do not believe you when you say he would have broken his deal with me.

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You're both completely missing the point. Spartans is being very honest with what they're saying. I've no doubt that they would have kept their word to you, Uncle Ed. If they want to break their word, they find loopholes, like the CF was only accepted on the 8th, therefore it's not an EOACF, just a blank CF, without saying anything upfront. I can assure you that if right after accepting the CF, Divinity broke the CF and said "it was just a blank CF, suck it and give me more acres", Spartans would have a very different story right now.

Anyway that's only on this incident. Let's talk about my bigger point about what I see Spartans doing - swindling ghettoes and doing it very well.Your average ghetto has a rainbow set-up, and really only looks at kingdom NW and kingdom land to determine if a target is a good target. This way Spartans can offer a war that looks "fair" on the surface, but is really anything but (and we're not even talking about activity here). On top of that, since Spartans always offers terms like "Acre cap, declare immediately, no AW, massacre or chain" it's easy for them to start the age with a set-up that maximises these advantages. You then build on these advantages by stacking honour on your T/Ms during early wars (helped by rules like no AW, no massacre, no chain, which also helps to lengthen wars, and further stacks honour on T/Ms). Then you package it all in a deal that sounds very sweet for the receiving kingdom.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed last age that if anything Spartans was trying to avoid conflict with more established kingdoms such as ED (even offering a no-compete), and I really don't recall many (if any) fights with established kingdoms, just news posts of Spartans vs average warring tier kingdom. Yet the claim is that Spartans just wants to FIGHT as many wars every age as possible. If this were true, the easiest way to fight more wars is to challenge kingdoms at, or even above your level, and probably lose some or most of them. Spartans stellar warring record suggests otherwise.

I have no doubt that Spartans is a skilled warring kingdom. But they never seem to want to challenge themselves - why else would you offer to war Divinity and promise to withdraw in 2 days, but ask for your usual slew of requirements? You're just trying to get away with an easier war record to war with, without hurting your T/M provinces, so you want to gift Divinity a war win. That's as fake as any other war.

To me (admittedly a nobody), the post from Uncle Ed was just a revelation as to how Spartans have been getting their wars - by offering ghettoes "sweet deals" that only benefit Spartans even more. I stand by my words that this is swindling ghettoes and ghetto-bashing.

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Originally Posted by Persain

@beans or bart or whoever u are now. per your request http://pastebin.com/EVneAiym is the entire 2 hour conversation i had with heaven since the stuff i posted made him look bad and he wanted to spin it.

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I am not Bart, don't insult me like that lol. Thanks for posting it. Long as hell but interesting.

I think the bottom line for us preventing any deal from being considered at this point is after all the **** play/ DB (definition depends on the kds involved i guess) that people in our kd have had to put up with over the years we are not willing to admit that what we did was a DB unless we know 100% that it would also be called a DB if done to us. You allude to multiple standards in diplo yourself but insist that what we did can only be seen in one way. Why? because you have big kds GBing us OOW. We don't care much about losses this age but we would be willing deal to stop the mess this has become. We are not willing to "publicly admit" that you are right to call this a DB based on the strength of the GBing kds. We have already admitted it was a ****ty thing to do, but based on UTO diplo history and IRL contract law we had/have our reasons to believe this was merely **** play and not a DB. Arguments that it is "obvious" or that we are required to honour the "intent" of a deal and not the letter of a deal have not changed my mind, although they have strengthened my belief that we should not be messing around with **** play at all even against kds that have wronged us. If admitting that breaking a EOA CF that was accepted under conditions explicitly forbidden in the written agreement is a true DB is required, and no standardized diplo is being considered makes this interpretation universal is being considered, then we are all wasting our time and would be better off if the razes are just finished in silence.

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Originally Posted by Leonidas

You're both completely missing the point. Spartans is being very honest with what they're saying. I've no doubt that they would have kept their word to you, Uncle Ed. If they want to break their word, they find loopholes, like the CF was only accepted on the 8th, therefore it's not an EOACF, just a blank CF, without saying anything upfront. I can assure you that if right after accepting the CF, Divinity broke the CF and said "it was just a blank CF, suck it and give me more acres", Spartans would have a very different story right now.

Anyway that's only on this incident. Let's talk about my bigger point about what I see Spartans doing - swindling ghettoes and doing it very well.Your average ghetto has a rainbow set-up, and really only looks at kingdom NW and kingdom land to determine if a target is a good target. This way Spartans can offer a war that looks "fair" on the surface, but is really anything but (and we're not even talking about activity here). On top of that, since Spartans always offers terms like "Acre cap, declare immediately, no AW, massacre or chain" it's easy for them to start the age with a set-up that maximises these advantages. You then build on these advantages by stacking honour on your T/Ms during early wars (helped by rules like no AW, no massacre, no chain, which also helps to lengthen wars, and further stacks honour on T/Ms). Then you package it all in a deal that sounds very sweet for the receiving kingdom.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed last age that if anything Spartans was trying to avoid conflict with more established kingdoms such as ED (even offering a no-compete), and I really don't recall many (if any) fights with established kingdoms, just news posts of Spartans vs average warring tier kingdom. Yet the claim is that Spartans just wants to FIGHT as many wars every age as possible. If this were true, the easiest way to fight more wars is to challenge kingdoms at, or even above your level, and probably lose some or most of them. Spartans stellar warring record suggests otherwise.

I have no doubt that Spartans is a skilled warring kingdom. But they never seem to want to challenge themselves - why else would you offer to war Divinity and promise to withdraw in 2 days, but ask for your usual slew of requirements? You're just trying to get away with an easier war record to war with, without hurting your T/M provinces, so you want to gift Divinity a war win. That's as fake as any other war.

To me (admittedly a nobody), the post from Uncle Ed was just a revelation as to how Spartans have been getting their wars - by offering ghettoes "sweet deals" that only benefit Spartans even more. I stand by my words that this is swindling ghettoes and ghetto-bashing.

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We don't pretend to be ghetto, we are upfront that we are a tough kd to war. No AW and what not isnt really that useful for us when warring ghettos, our TM activity and builds are solid and if anything limiting ops just slows us down. It does help make us less scary to war though bc even if a ghetto thinks they cant beat us they might want to war for fun but not get totally wrecked for the age by debilitating ops and pks (see ascension last war). Sure not getting hit with debilitating ops is nice, but vs the kinds of kds that would qualify for your "ghetto swindling" standards we dont need to worry about those kinds of ops even with out an agreement. Perhaps the reason a lot of less experienced kds are afraid of these ops is because of the abuse they have suffered getting slammed by other kds who actually are swindling and ghetto-bashing?

We war pro and amature kds. We would have warred divinity except their build is set up to be super strong in long hostile, and ours is set up to be super strong in short hostile. Our KD's are presumably set up this way because thats how each kd prefers to play, negotiations trying to find a middle ground didnt work out. We werent scared to war divinity, we just hate long hostiles and are not set up for them and divinity didnt want to short hostile.

Correct me if I am wrong please but isn't "no aw, no mass, no chaining etc" fake war terms? Either way its idiotic. I didn't realise how ghetto Spartans were. I mean I knew they sucked but I didn't think they sucked so bad they had to put terms on war. Is there a clause for no dragons as well?

Also they are not getting hit for fake warring but for deal breaking. As I told Bart he should have messaged zauper protector or flogger anyone really to see if breaking that cf was a deal break or not. The fact that the cf was not taken back and the fact that both parties accepted the cf is saying to both parties that it's eoa cf. If Sparta didn't want the eoa cf then they should have withdrew the cf offer. I read the logs. Bart even stated he would stay awake until cf was accepted because he would not sleep with an open cf on the table.

All this other stuff about what Sparta has done in the past is a moot point. They are going to be turned green for deal breaking. There is no reason to even continue the discussion really. Sparta messed up. They refuse to make it right. So they will be turned green. Simple as that.

Leonidas, I still don't get your complain of offering ghettoes "sweet deals". I mean, if there are any kingdoms out there that want to test themselves against an "Elite" kingdom, I would suggest Spartans. They will give you a fair deal so you actually have chance to win, they will not demolish your kingdom, and they will give you sound advice afterwards. What more could you ask for?

So here is situation 1) An Elite kingdom lies and says they are new like us, and offers us a fair and friendly war. Then they grow to 2k acres more than us before declare date and proceed to kill off three of my provinces in war. Then they taunt us with banners, and make fun of us for being newbs in the forum. I point this out to the "Heroes of Utopia" and you all flame me for being a newb and falling for their BS. Noone gets all up in arms about ghetto bashing then, do they?

Situation 2) Spartans offers us a fair war with a growth cap. No PK'ing, AW, or Massacres. Whoever is the clear winner surrenders. You actually say that they are ghetto bashing us?

Leonidas, I understand your problem. If my success in utopia was based on lying, cheating, and stealing from ghetto kingdoms I would be pretty pissed when someone came in and started teaching ghettos how the elites lie, cheat, and steal. In fact, I would get all my elite brethren together and try to kill off that jerk who is ruining the game for me. Then I would go to the forums and tell everyone how this dude is not actually HELPING the ghetto's get better, but he is swindling them and bashing them. Hey, those ghetto monarchs were stupid enough to fall for ur dirty tricks for ages, I am sure they will believe you again, right?

Bottom line there is some seriously shady people in this game. In fact, there are so many of them it actually makes me think about quitting the game again everytime I have to deal with one. I can honestly say that Spartans is not one of them, and any kingdom going after Spartans you want to avoid like the plague because they are the shady ones.

Isn't it plain to see that spartans messed up from persain's log. Spartans deserved it and just take the punishment. Wtf are there still people not happy.