What would it take?

definitely getting honour and land bonus for war win is a good start. Even if it doesn't encourage them to whore it should have successful kingdoms stay in a larger land tier together so you don't end up warring weak kingdoms for your first 3-4 wars.

ability to use pool in eowcf also i think made it easier for war kingdoms as naps were less important and it made it easier then land dropping to get similar size spread. Mind you land dropping continues to really never be necessary and a cowards way to face easy opponents.

Still if you're gaining minimum 5k acres for each war win that would have the top war kingdoms all around 90-100k end of age leaving the weaker kingdoms at 40k to be safe :)

Like Maxi said, If you run a province that can double back most whoring kds provinces, they SHOULDN'T hit you. If they do, double hit them back. Top feeding >>> Bottom feeding so you hold all the cards. You will get more acres than them overall and delay their growth which no whoring kingdom wants. If you don't want the acres, RAZE them and when you raze them, GO FOR THE HIGHEST/BIGGEST ACRES YOU CAN RAZE on the highest defense you can break. Razing is not NW related as much (someone confirm). Also, they WONT want to give you ops so you can outhit them and if they do give you ops, FIREBALL their "cows". The longer you can delay them, the more you damage them.

Also, another tip is use a name and stick to it (kd name). If you retal a few hits, the age after, that whoring kd will think twice again about hitting in if they'll get the same treatment again. If you can't use the same name as warring kingdoms will avoid you, it is time to step up to whoring my friends!

It's up to the ghettos to retal and make it not worth hitting in from the top kds.

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Originally Posted by Kestrel038

And I have never argued otherwise. My original post quite clearly stated the opinion of an "average warring ghetto kingdom". I've already pointed out the disadvantages for such kingdoms. Your answer is, albeit politely worded, exactly what I said it would be "you're a nub.. you obviously haven't got a clue".. well congratulations Squee.. you just proved the EXACT point I was making.. ghetto's are ghettos.. you will never get them whoring because it's not worth the effort and they'll get farmed by a kingdom 4-5 times their size every time they get anywhere..

go on about numbers all you want, but that does not take away from any of my points.

What really gets me is why all the established players are so against cutting off gains completely at 50% nw?? why would that be such a major penalty for the crown hunters?? they would still have over a third of the server to feed upon.. why do they hang on so desperately to the ability to hit into 1 mill 20 prov ghettos??? and why is everyone so set against giving the ghettos some breathing room from the crown hunters??

You asked what it would take for our kingdom to try whoring.. well I've told you.. you may disagree, but those are still the kind of changes that would be needed to make ours try it.

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actually Kestral it did 100% show the flaw in your point. You sound liek you think you deserve to be left alone. This is a war game and an attacking game. I am not sure who said it but i think it was godly but "do you enjoy competition" because if you don't utopia isn't the place for you. Simcity or another simulator game is more likely your speed

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Originally Posted by Squee311

actually Kestral it did 100% show the flaw in your point. You sound liek you think you deserve to be left alone. This is a war game and an attacking game. I am not sure who said it but i think it was godly but "do you enjoy competition" because if you don't utopia isn't the place for you. Simcity or another simulator game is more likely your speed

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The name is Kestrel, and I sound "like" I think I deserve to be left alone..

But to answer your question, do I like competition, yes I do.. but the answer to the question "Do I think that a kingdom able to hit one 20% of it's own networth and still get gains to be competition?" No I do not.

And despite everyones claims that "offense is the best defense".. when the bottomfeeding province is 40% or so bigger than the defender, no amount of offense is going to work.. also.. when the targetted province is a halfer or faery.. they cannot carry serious offense to double/triple back. Not to mention.. you dare to double retal a bigger kingdom.. next thing your top provs are taking double and triple tap razes.. just because they can.. or their "friends" are making hits on you instead.. no matter what you say.. the mechanics may support topfeeding, but for a 20 prov ghetto to try such tactics with a 25 prov top 10 kingdom is suicide.. you can spout on all day about how "it's not worth it for them" and so on.. but the fact is.. NO ghetto is equipped to deal with 140% nw hits from a 400-500% nw kd.. no amount of offense is going to save you when you're 5 provs down.. unable to break any but the smallest provs over there (at 140%+ nw).. while all your guys are quad razeable to half their kingdom.. and if you seriously suggest that it is.. then you need to get a check on reality.

To your average ghetto, a crown hunting 25 prov kingdom might as well be the ABS alliance for all the difference it makes.. it's still a flea trying to take down a horse.

Maximouse.. if more of the ghetto kingdoms had the chance to grow, you wouldn't be limited to those 8 targets.. as it is.. what you do is farm from the 92% that aren't until you only have 7 kingdoms in range.. and then 6 etc etc.. the current system creates the problem we have. And yet a system that would allow more growth is unacceptable to the top guys because it would force them to pick on kingdoms that had a chance of fighting back rather than picking on the ones that have no chance of doing so.

And what ALL of you forget is.. the question posed was "What would it take for you to consider whoring".. I answer that question, and as always.. I get a bunch of the big players in naysaying and telling me I'm a nub and that my ideas are pointless.. even though not one of you (with the possible exception of maximouse) can offer any alternative to address the problem other than "learn how to play the game nub"..

You want to know why Utopia is dying.. it's because of these kinds of responses whenever ANYBODY makes a suggestion to give the smaller or newer guys a chance to learn the game without being hammered down the second they do half well..

You talk about a tax on being successful.. why the f**k not?? that's how the world works.. the more you have the more tax you pay.. what we currently have is the system where the poor get taxed to the hilt to keep the rich on top. And the rich spend all their time and energy making sure it stays that way.

I've told you what it would take to get my kingdom to consider it.. you don't like what I say that's fine.. but unless you can come up with another way, then the only answer you can take from it is "nothing will make me consider whoring as long as the system remains as it is and the elitist few at the top continue to belittle every suggestion put forward in favour of the little guys in order to perpetuate their supremacy via current game mechanics"

Good day to you sirs

Everyone starts at the same acre size. They have 25 provinces you can hit. I am sure you fan find one you can break with high offense. Even out of nw range, you just raze and pick a low def. Atm, provinces bottom feeding are taking about 50 acres. We ate one retal for 170 acres... Now that is 3 uniques lost, 36h lost for the whorer. That is a lot of time to loose. Now you claim they'll call in support from their big provinces? They won't waste time razing and if they do so what? You loose zero honor and want to not grow anyway?

So now you are getting razed, losing zero honor AND you ate getting GBP? Score!

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Originally Posted by Kestrel038

And despite everyones claims that "offense is the best defense".. when the bottomfeeding province is 40% or so bigger than the defender, no amount of offense is going to work.. also.. when the targetted province is a halfer or faery.. they cannot carry serious offense to double/triple back. Not to mention.. you dare to double retal a bigger kingdom.. next thing your top provs are taking double and triple tap razes.. just because they can.. or their "friends" are making hits on you instead.. no matter what you say.. the mechanics may support topfeeding, but for a 20 prov ghetto to try such tactics with a 25 prov top 10 kingdom is suicide.. you can spout on all day about how "it's not worth it for them" and so on.. but the fact is.. NO ghetto is equipped to deal with 140% nw hits from a 400-500% nw kd.. no amount of offense is going to save you when you're 5 provs down.. unable to break any but the smallest provs over there (at 140%+ nw).. while all your guys are quad razeable to half their kingdom.. and if you seriously suggest that it is.. then you need to get a check on reality.

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Then why does it happen all the time?
My kd, which has 21 provs (2 in protection), has CF's with BB, CR, and Pyro (among others). Everyone is more than well equipped to deal with big kingdoms, you just need to know how to handle the diplomacy side of things. That's not calling you a nub, or some kind of "l2play" attitude, that's just the facts. Smaller kds get big kds off their backs every single age just by standing their ground and talking things out.

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Originally Posted by Kestrel038

But to answer your question, do I like competition, yes I do.. but the answer to the question "Do I think that a kingdom able to hit one 20% of it's own networth and still get gains to be competition?" No I do not.

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So if your province is the same size as mine, and I hit you and gain acres, did I just bottomfeed you because my kingdom is bigger? Seems unlikely. You're in a victim mentality.

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And despite everyones claims that "offense is the best defense"..

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Because it is.

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when the bottomfeeding province is 40% or so bigger than the defender, no amount of offense is going to work..

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False. Enough offense to break (or double) back works. You need to remember -- top kds run low draft and low military -- only enough to hit you while having a little defense back.

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also.. when the targetted province is a halfer or faery.. they cannot carry serious offense to double/triple back.

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Victim mentality. Run offense on them and retal. Hell -- have your smaller high off provs raze retal.

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Not to mention.. you dare to double retal a bigger kingdom.. next thing your top provs are taking double and triple tap razes..

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You have your incentives backwards here. If you retal and show you retal, the top kds have every incentive to CF, not try to FSU just because.

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just because they can.. or their "friends" are making hits on you instead.. no matter what you say..

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If their "friends" hit you, have your "friends" hit them. (hint: top kds don't ask their friends to hit you because they want your acres).

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the mechanics may support topfeeding, but for a 20 prov ghetto to try such tactics with a 25 prov top 10 kingdom is suicide..

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False.

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you can spout on all day about how "it's not worth it for them" and so on.. but the fact is.. NO ghetto is equipped to deal with 140% nw hits from a 400-500% nw kd.. no amount of offense is going to save you when you're 5 provs down.. unable to break any but the smallest provs over there (at 140%+ nw).. while all your guys are quad razeable to half their kingdom.. and if you seriously suggest that it is.. then you need to get a check on reality.

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My ghetto (20 provs, 8 of which are under 600a; biggest 3 provs being 1000-1400a faeries) -- and at least 1 other ghetto i know -- has forced CFs with all the top kds by virtue of being able to raze their cows and informing them that we would if they didn't CF. That sounds like the opposite of what you're concerned about. Went to them with a reasonable point -- 'don't cf and we raze your cow', got what we wanted. Nothing lost. You need a check on reality.

The entire age doesn't happen in yr11 when the age is over. early in the age, especially yr 0-2 or so, ghettos have a lot of ability to break cows, raze top provs, rob/destroy gc stocks -- this ability lasts all age and can be hugely impactful to a top kd

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To your average ghetto, a crown hunting 25 prov kingdom might as well be the ABS alliance for all the difference it makes.. it's still a flea trying to take down a horse.

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False.

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Maximouse.. if more of the ghetto kingdoms had the chance to grow, you wouldn't be limited to those 8 targets.. as it is.. what you do is farm from the 92% that aren't until you only have 7 kingdoms in range.. and then 6 etc etc.. the current system creates the problem we have. And yet a system that would allow more growth is unacceptable to the top guys because it would force them to pick on kingdoms that had a chance of fighting back rather than picking on the ones that have no chance of doing so.

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Your proposed system doesn't allow growth, it restricts growth and encourages farm wars.

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And what ALL of you forget is.. the question posed was "What would it take for you to consider whoring".. I answer that question, and as always.. I get a bunch of the big players in naysaying and telling me I'm a nub and that my ideas are pointless.. even though not one of you (with the possible exception of maximouse) can offer any alternative to address the problem other than "learn how to play the game nub"..

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You dismiss the advice of people who know what they're doing out of hand because you think you know better. They listen, tell you why you're wrong (see my posts, others explaining how mechanics actually work) and you're being shot down because you're a nub, but we're wrong? That's... interesting.

bottomfeeding lasts as long as it does because:
1) people don't retal, which lets top kds nw-drop significantly to hit (don't need to run many/any def units or built acres)
2) NW gains are silly.

If you revise the CF system or bring back land based gains, it resolves a lot of those problems and makes the game much more dynamic.

Part of why I'm playing in a ghetto this age is to demonstrate that the kinds of things I talk about in this thread -- and in my guide -- are accurate regarding how to respond to top kds. I've played in two ghettos so far this age. The first one got early CFs with BB/pyro by aggressively hitting and retalling their hits -- making it clear that we weren't going to let them farm us for acres. The second one got CFs with all of the t6 or so by just threatening to raze their cows with our fae. Being aggressive is a much stronger solution to getting what you want than being passive.

Good thread.

Now, as the author of the ghetto code of valor, one thing to understand is that ghettos play ghetto-style. In concept, all of these are very good points. But if the goal is to make the game competitive at the top - we have to really educate the players at the ghettoes. They have a different sense of "fun" and how they see a winning age is very different. At times, they just don't care. If you fix that and then tweak the game a bit as Zauper suggested, then that would be a good start. And we have to teach them how to play.

One thought - is to perhaps bridge the community together. These "serious" crown guys and then the guys who plays casually. At times, I see when they reach out, we have the tendency to troll and maybe that puts them off a bit. Integrate them by maybe have them appreciate the community -- i.e. Who are these kingdoms, who are these players, and intelligent war reporting esp, on tactics etc.

And if you bring back land-based games, I may play this game again. That's gold for me. Top will have to play a bit more smarter as the mid-tier can mess it up a bit more etc.

Excellent post Zauper. I'm perplexed by the number of kingdoms I visit that have an express 'don't hit up' mentality. I can excuse this as far as starting trouble, but it's beyond many of them to retal.
One thing that I know happens is a lot of casuals don't perceive or analyze threats. A full wave from a war kingdom is the same as a SK random/acreage hit.
The other side is the trollish types that send dragons early or tip hostile to declare. I've attempted to offer advice on gold funneling to avoid dragon sending by accident. You can't stop a troll from sending dragons, but it's easier to trace if you track gold. I'm not telling you,I'm telling them lol.

A lot of this misses the point - the problem for ghettos trying to grow aren't the kingdoms that are aiming to win land chart, it's the FSU kingdoms that get off on making other people miserable for the lulz. Growth kingdoms that actually want to win can be expected to not engage in activities which are bad for growing, like a prolonged hostile with some ghetto instead of a quick hostile and cf. FSU kingdoms can't be expected to be rational actors, except to do the most obnoxious thing possible at any given moment.

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Originally Posted by noobium

A lot of this misses the point - the problem for ghettos trying to grow aren't the kingdoms that are aiming to win land chart, it's the FSU kingdoms that get off on making other people miserable for the lulz. Growth kingdoms that actually want to win can be expected to not engage in activities which are bad for growing, like a prolonged hostile with some ghetto instead of a quick hostile and cf. FSU kingdoms can't be expected to be rational actors, except to do the most obnoxious thing possible at any given moment.

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Yes. But the FSU kingdoms aren't the ones making random bottomfeeding into kds 1/5th their size down 40% NW.

The irritational actor FSU kingdoms tend to be war kingdoms, not growth kingdoms. (unless the growth kingdoms have nothing to play for)

http://cdn.meme.li/instances/500x/53055352.jpg

http://www.scribd.com/doc/228831637/...iency#download

As you say, ghetto mentality is not to hit up.. now if the mechanics are so in favour of topfeeding.. then why is this? why do SO many ghettos not feel cmfortable retalling 5xnw hits?? For all that you go on about how things work this way or that way, the very existence of this thread suggests that the actual case is very different.

instead of talking down and trolling.. ask yourself why that is...

A lot of smaller kingdoms don't care about gaining acres. Most of the time, if I get landgrabbed I just shrug, find acres (whether retal or otherwise) only if I need them on my province. Otherwise, yay free land drop. That is a large reason why smaller kingdoms don't bother retalling larger kingdoms... krng minimizes the acre losses to an acceptable level for kingdoms out of range, but it's not worth the troop losses to get involved in a protracted hostile with a larger kingdom, especially if the larger kingdom is willing to spam ops.

It is important though to have the potential to retaliate, whether with attacks or ops. Having elves is useful for this, since their traits are good for a province that suffers hits and ops out of range. If you have the potential to retaliate, the incentive for people to hit is reduced, and if a large kingdom persists in hitting you have the option to do something about it. If it's just a few randoms then I usually don't bother, pay the acre/sci tax and try to find wars or something more productive.