Wow, 230 people dead - out of a total 7 billion.
This is a truly massive tragedy, stoffi, and it's going to take humanity all of two minutes to get those 230 people replaced.
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Wow, 230 people dead - out of a total 7 billion.
This is a truly massive tragedy, stoffi, and it's going to take humanity all of two minutes to get those 230 people replaced.
I'm so tired of hearing news about Israel and the gaza strip.
Its always the same.
Talks about peace... and it doesn't happen.
Hamas shoots junk at Israel, Isreal kills a bunch of civilians to make a point.
This enflames the population and they support Hamas to shoot more.
Frankly, I don't remember who started it, but it doesn't matter at this point, because both sides are perpetuating it.
Of course, the problem might come to a close if Israel actually gave palestinians in the gaza strip proper land that might allow for actual prosperity or if the other Arab nations granted palestinian refugees citizenship instead of threating them like foreign thrash.
Either way, I'm a much happier person now that I don't follow this junk anymore, especially since its none of my business anyways. No offense to the parties involved in this little fracas. May they kill each other hapilly ever after if they so wish.
Hamas deserves death - same with all their supports.
You know what I always found funny about this whole thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mourhelm
http://www.theisraelproject.org/site...997&ct=3887857
In the last 7 years 31 Israelis have died from rockets and mortars.
That's ~4.4 per year...... Sharks kill more people every year.
(I didn't read any of the previous pages)
What would YOUR country do to protect its people Stoffi?
Answer me that question.
Sharks may kill more people per year but that is an accident, Hamas is intentionally bombing Israel.
Israel might be taking it too far but at least then maybe Hamas will get the picture and stop all this crap.
Least then if Israel smokes Hamas to the ground this stupid war can be finished with and the rest of the world can stop hearing about anti-semitism and terrorist groups and all the other BS that goes along with Israel, Palestine and Hamas.
Lol. Indeed, swedish priests are world known for their propaganda machinery....Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfDGrey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobolob
First of all, I would bring peace to my country. That is not achieved by creating more war and denying a democratically elected government. Hamas have killed far far far far far less civilians throughout all their years than Israel did in just these 2 weeks.
You can't blame them for being pissed.
If Israel and USA would have talked to Hamas 2 years ago when Hamas offered to recognize Israel and have peace, Israel would have had peace now.
That's a fact.
And Israel is also intensionally bombing civilians, or not caring if there are any around, which makes them the same as Hamas.
Israel can't bomb away Hamas. Hizbollah for example, is now stronger than ever because Israel bombed them.
The only way is through negotiation.
There are extremists in both Hamas and Israel, but most ppl surely wants peace on both sides. The terms however, are something else.
Israel must stop its illegal settlements and Hamas must stop sending rockets.
By warring now, Israel creates more hostility and takes peace even further away, risking to loose its goodwill around the world and the arab world will look at them with even angrier faces.
Israel should praise their God that they are the only "democracy" in the middle east, because the ppl of the arab states want to support the palestinians far, far more than they do now. But their dictators hold them back, and if they were to have democracy, they would turn on Israel.
And that is very likely to happen in the future.
NOTHING justifies killing 230 children in 14 days. There is no justification. It's an act of terrorism and will only bring more hate.
Yay, and Israel also bombed the NORWEGIAN church's hospital in Gaza.
So, Israel bombed the Danish, swedish AND the norwegian church hospitals in Gaza. How are these hospitals anywhere near related to Hamas? One would think the churches in these countries actually supports Israel since they are hardcore christians.
some of you still live in denial, saying this didn't happen. But it happened. Face it. Israel bombs civilians and humanitarian targets on PURPOSE.
Well it seems Hamas knew that there will be war at least according to Al-Jazeera TV. Israelis too. So I don't understand why you're whining?
From 18th of Dec 2008:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWHR42DBql4
Both do the same **** to each other, you just need to read the news carefully:
"An Israeli airstrike destroyed a mosque and Islamic school in Rafah, on the border with Egypt."
"Hamas militants launched at least 24 rockets at southern Israel, lightly injuring three people. Rockets hit a kindergarten and a children's playground in the city of Ashdod."
Good luck to both sides on covering up their hidden agendas with a quick war.
Its not about what you would do, its about what YOUR COUNTRY would do. Lets not make this a theoretical question as if you were in a beauty pageant hoping for world peace. Stick to the topic and what your country would really do, they would not sit idley by and let this happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffi
Lets get one thing clear, I do not agree with any of this, the injuring and killing of innocent civilians I do not condone and it pains to see that these people are being subjected to this kind of treatment but the fact is Israel had to do something otherwise Hamas would have just keep firing rockets.
Here is a snippet of an Australian website about this issue.
"Since the Israeli onslaught began on December 27, at least 890 people have been killed, including 275 children, and another 3,800 wounded, according to Dr Muawiya Hassanein, the head of Gaza emergency services.
Ten Israeli soldiers and three civilians have been killed in combat or in rocket attacks since the operation began. Palestinian militants have fired more than 600 rockets, some of them penetrating deeper than ever inside Israel.
The conflict has sparked worldwide pro-Palestinian demonstrations, and US president elect Barack Obama said he is assembling a team of diplomats to start addressing the Middle East conflict once he is sworn in on January 20.
Venezuela, which expelled Israel's ambassador over the war, said on Sunday it had sent a cargo plane to Egypt bearing 12.5 tonnes of medical supplies and other materials for Gaza's population."
Now as we can see that Gaza has had a huge casualties compared to Israel but the fact is Hamas are still firing rockets, if they had stopped maybe Israel would have been lighter.
Israel are intent on stopping Hamas from firing rockets into their nation.
Whether that means destroying and disbanding Hamas all together or completely crippling them so they cannot is yet to be seen.
The other thing to remember is that once all of this is over, if Hamas is still around, they will hit back, it will only be a matter of time and all this will start again. A permanent solution needs to be made between the two countries and between the UN (god help us if they get something right). Once a solution has been made they should BOTH be held accountable for their own actions and IF either broke a agreement signed by both parties and the UN, then action should be taken to rectify the problem with the UN's help.
That's the point. You're giving them greater life force. And peace talks are gonna be even harder to negotiate now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobolob
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobolob
I think they answer each other in some way. What would your country do indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobolob
And as for what my country would do, well, it wouldn't do something that would cause it to be bombed. Like say, taking over parts of another country. Even if it was bombed, it wouldn't just drop a few flyers of warning to justify bombing schools and marketplaces full of kids. If it did, I'd be one of the people at the front criticizing my government and trying to change it, not agreeing to it's methods. And I'd be ashamed for the actions of my countrymen.
My country got it's own problems. My mother narrowly escaped a grenade attack which killed two of her colleagues. All those who think there's a problem with my threat assessment, stop making assumptions.
Once VT2 came trolling and made his off topic communist remark at WolfDGrey I thought that the thread will totally go off topic. I see I was wrong...
I disagree. They might have elected Hamas out of fear.Quote:
Originally Posted by kwwww
We remember.Quote:
Originally Posted by kwwww
They don't even try to minimize casualties. Would you, as a civilian, sit by a rocket launcher knowing it might get hit, or will you try to get as far as you can from it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Saatana
You you need to read again kwwww's post. He said 4,000 Americans died.Quote:
Originally Posted by dka
About that link, that's propaganda. Celebrating with candy and a camera crew is still celebrating...
But as I said on my first post, everyone will believe what they want to believe.
The link comes to show that Hamas has been shooting rockets out of schools for years. Even if it's not a UN school, it is still a school.Quote:
Originally Posted by dka
You can check if it's a UN school yourself, but you won't do it so you won't have to face the truth that Hamas uses schools (and UN schools) to fire rockets from.
Eight years of rockets is no tolerant enough?Quote:
Originally Posted by EPIMONDAS
Hamas has a political wing. In its manifesto it calls for the total annihilation of Israel.Quote:
Originally Posted by EPIMONDAS
Try sixty years...Quote:
Originally Posted by VT2
It will stop once the Arab nations will accept the existence of Israel. Jordan and Egypt accepted it and we have peace with them.
You've seen the intelligence. There is limited time to make a decision whether to attack or not. The fact that there are Israeli people looking into the matter and criticizing what the army is doing shows that we do care about the mistakes we make.Quote:
Originally Posted by dka
I'm sure the army is investigating that incident. If you think that it was an intentional attack on civilians, next thing you'll say is that the four Israeli soldiers that died from friendly fire were shot intentionally too.
FYI, Israel had great relations with Iran before Iran had a military coup and religious extremist took power.Quote:
Originally Posted by allonons
If you're tired of it, stay out of it. You clearly don't know that much about the situation (because you don't care much). You think you know something because you read some headlines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magn
Israel kills terrorists that launch rockets at it to try and make it safer for its citizens. Sometimes civilians get hurt too, but its not to "make a point".Quote:
Originally Posted by Magn
We removed all Israeli citizens from the Gaza strip. If they didn't concentrate on buying more weapons and trying to kill us they could have prosper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magn
If you see sharks in the water, do you go swimming thinking to yourself that only a few people a year die from shark attacks?Quote:
Originally Posted by reyals
Sharks don't understand what they are doing, they see something in the water and attack it. If you stay away from them, they don't come to get you.
People on the other hand know exactly what they are doing. Hamas targets civilian population on purpose and not by mistake. Hamas doesn't stay away if you take a step back from them - getting all the Israeli citizens out of the Gaza strip is proof of that.
I disagree. They claim they have victory and more life force, but truthfully the Palestinian people see that the way of aggression doesn't work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo
Again, Israel took all its citizens out of the Gaza strip. It didn't stop the terror attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo
I'm not making assumptions about your threat assessment abilities. I say you have a problem according to your posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo
Tell me this, if a grenade was thrown at your mother's work place every day and only a few times a year someone would get hurt from these attacks, will you still tell her to go to work?
Will you do nothing about the attacks?
Do you think the fact that only a few people a year die from these attacks will comfort you when she dies?
I disagree. They might have legitimately elected Hamas. But that's beside the point. It doesn't give anyone the right to kill civilians.Quote:
They might have elected Hamas out of fear.
The thirst for revenge is a potent motivation. You are creating a more "eye for an eye" situation.Quote:
They claim they have victory and more life force, but truthfully the Palestinian people see that the way of aggression doesn't work.
Could you point out which posts you are talking about?Quote:
I say you have a problem according to your posts.
She still went to work. Didn't skip a day. She's a tough woman. And we did do something. We found the guys who did it. They were put on trial. They killed quite a few people. But we didn't feel the need to throw a couple of grenades into the house they and their family were hiding in. That's cause we knew we were better than that.Quote:
Tell me this, if a grenade was thrown at your mother's work place every day and only a few times a year someone would get hurt from these attacks, will you still tell her to go to work?
Will you do nothing about the attacks?
EDIT: The attacks went on for about a year, 18 months or so.
How can you be sure that none of them elected Hamas because of fear?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo
At least we agree on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo
This one:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo
You make a ground assault sound like a walk in the park. That's poor threat assessment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo
If I had my workplace bombed with grenades every day for a year I would go to my government and demand they protect me. Your mother is brave, and I admire that, but I doubt she liked the situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo
If the price of getting the guys who did it was the lives of a dozen of your friends would you be willing to pay it?
Edit:
Out of curiosity, where does your mother work (or worked) when they threw grenades at her workplace everyday?
If Hamas was elected by fear, it was from fear of Israeli bombs. Hamas is a much beloved organization by many palestinians, because they build scools, welfare institutions, kinder gardens, etc etc. But like the State of Israel, they also have a military branch with insane ideas and will not hesitate to bomb civilians.
Mourhelm shows little understanding of what Hamas is if he thinks they were elected because the palestinians feared them, very little understanding indeed.
That's how most countries deal with this sort of thing. Even the Nazi's were cautious bombing civilians in countries they wanted to keep(if the inhabitants were off the über master race). you can't bomb hospitals, market places, schools and the homes of the family of a hamas member just because some ppl in Hamas shoot rockets into the desert, and once in a while hits a roof or something.Quote:
She still went to work. Didn't skip a day. She's a tough woman. And we did do something. We found the guys who did it. They were put on trial. They killed quite a few people. But we didn't feel the need to throw a couple of grenades into the house they and their family were hiding in. That's cause we knew we were better than that.
Doing that will create more hate and even more rockets. If Hamas is finished, another group will take over and fight on. The resistance against occupation always lives.
And someone said the palestinians no longer had a reason to fight because they had gotten their own country in Gaza after Israel pulled out. Ever heard of the word "ghetto"?
The germans didn't occupy the ghetto, they just walled them in and killed random ppl.
The palestinians are in the worlds biggest prison, while Israel won't even let in medicines and enough food supplies. Gaza is strangled, Hamas had to do something. Who can live under such conditions forced upon you by an occupation force?
EVERYONE would FIGHT the occupation with all means, even Mourhelm.
I never once heard about Hamas building schools, or doing anything useful for society, stoffi.
Sure you're not overdosing on your drugs again?
[QUOTE=Mourhelm;14390388]
You you need to read again kwwww's post. He said 4,000 Americans died.[quote]
[QUOTE=Mourhelm;14390388]
About that link, that's propaganda. Celebrating with candy and a camera crew is still celebrating...
But as I said on my first post, everyone will believe what they want to believe.[quote]
The point of the link is that they were tricked by the camera crew to celebrate at the time of 911. The camera crew obviously did that with the intention make them look bad.
The news crew provided sweets to illicit that response then they claimed the Palestinians were celebrating 911. Now why would a camera crew be giving out sweets?
Besides, the news did not give any real substance to they're story to prove 911 is what they were celebrating; those palestinians who were baited with candy by the cameramen at least deserve the benefit of a doubt.
According to the news articles they even encouraged them to become animated. This articles claim is strengthened by the fact that the camera crew was giving out candy in the first place.
http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/tran...erste7528.html
http://translate.google.com/translat...158625,00.html
Personally I think the latter article translated better but the former article contains an important detail, the fact that the crew encouraged animation.
The news outlets presenting the tape didn't even show the whole tape to the public, just selective shots (I did some searching and could not find a tape that seemed to be the full length), every tape I could find on this felt a bit short.
If a cameraman knows what he is doing, it is possible for him to do selective shots that make a person look bad unjustifiably.
As for my misread, I don't know how I misread that; I acknowledge that I misread it though.
[QUOTE=Mourhelm;14390388]
The link comes to show that Hamas has been shooting rockets out of schools for years. Even if it's not a UN school, it is still a school.
You can check if it's a UN school yourself, but you won't do it so you won't have to face the truth that Hamas uses schools (and UN schools) to fire rockets from.[quote]
I was simply making an observation based on that video; I have seen propaganda where the news lies about location before. Not that it is necessarily a lie here. I did add edits to that post you are quoting, signifying I didn't find what I thought I found.
As for the second paragraph I don't support hamas, I was just expressing skepticism. And when did I say hamas didn't use schools for they're attacks?
[QUOTE=Mourhelm;14390388]
You've seen the intelligence. There is limited time to make a decision whether to attack or not. The fact that there are Israeli people looking into the matter and criticizing what the army is doing shows that we do care about the mistakes we make.
I'm sure the army is investigating that incident. If you think that it was an intentional attack on civilians, next thing you'll say is that the four Israeli soldiers that died from friendly fire were shot intentionally too.[quote]
My main reason for posting that video is because the person I was responding to seemed to think those civilians were guilty, when in fact they were probably going to do repairs after all the bombing gaza is going through. I wanted to point out that they are most likely innocent.
Regarding whether it was intentional targeting, At this point it probably was intentional to some degree, civilian casualties in gaza are high.
CNN even admitted that Israel attacked first:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4
This was planned six months ago:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050426.html
How do you know they elected Hamas out of fear? Besides, many Palestinians feel that Hamas would do a much better job of upholding their rights than Mahmoud Abbas, whom they consider spineless. And like it or not, Hamas is popular among Palestinians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mourhelm
You guys are supposed to have the most competent army in all of Middle East. Didn't you fend off the armies of most of the Arab Nations? Didn't you win miracle battles? Surely it's not too bold to assume that you could defeat Hamas face-to-face, and save a lot of civilian lives. Yes, of course, losses would be a bit higher on your side, but you would save innocent lives. And you launched a ground attack regardless. So what was the point of killing all those people?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mourhelm
I don't command my friends. I can only speak for myself. To save that guy's kids, I'd give my life. Not for him, but for his kids. For me, my principles come first. And if it really was a dozen of my friends in exchange for 300-400 kids, I'd pay it, and I'm certain my friends would do the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mourhelm
The terrorist group came out of the closet [so to speak] and attacked different targets for a year, not one target repeatedly. They did some bombings before with big breaks in between attacks, over a period of about 10 years. It targetted MPs, Police, Judicial service, cultural activists, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mourhelm
And of course she didn't like the situation. You'd have to be insane to like the situation.
She's a judge. They bombed courts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mourhelm
The press has a business of making news. I agree that news crews can report false information. did you check if there are other indications of Palestinians celebrating (not in relation to that specific video)?Quote:
Originally Posted by dka
At least we agree that they shot out of schools.Quote:
Originally Posted by dka
I don't think there is any reason to target innocent civilians. If they looked guilty (as they obviously did) the firing was intentional, but as an aim at terrorists with rockets.Quote:
Originally Posted by dka
That one got cut in the middle of their discussion...Quote:
Originally Posted by dka
More info on the Israeli raid is needed to understand the circumstances.
At any case, if the cease fire was broken, why did both sides waited for it to officially be over?
Israel must have had a good reason to attack these gunman or it wouldn't risk breaking the cease fire.
Also, do you know what were the terms of the cease fire? Maybe something happened that was not covered in the cease fire agreement.
I didn't watch the video.Quote:
Originally Posted by dka
Every army in the world have plans for action according to it's threat assessments. The army has plans for cases of an all out war, it doesn't mean it initiates the war.
Same case here, threat assessment was that there might be an escalation with the Palestinians at the Gaza strip so there was a plan for that case.
---
I don't know. I said "they might have elected Hamas out of fear". Disagreeing with that means that they didn't elect Hamas out of fear for sure. That's why I asked you "how you could be so sure?".Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo
My point was that the fact that they elected Hamas doesn't make them guilty of anything and doesn't change the fact that they are civilians that shouldn't be targeted.
The competence of our army is irrelevant (I am happy you think it's the best around - it makes it a good deterrent).Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo
Once you join the Israeli army (or any army that actually has a threat to deal with for that matter) and get to read intelligence reports and threat assessments you will understand why an army fight like it fights.
If it was a dozen soldiers for 300-400 kids we would pay it too. That's why we sent in ground forces, to reduce the civilian casualties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo
I asked you about paying the price of a dozen for your friends for 0 kids and 0 civilians. I guess you wouldn't pay that, would you?
My point is that it's not a dozen of your friends it's thousand of your friends and family.
Estimations are that Hamas has about 20,000 troops. Going at them without thinking will cost a lot more than it will save. After considering the threat and the cost and effect of each contingency Israel decided to go with the current action.
You wouldn't want all your friends to just die because someone sent them on an ineffective suicide attack.
The people of Israel don't like the situation of terror either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo
Sadly, Hamas is not a terrorist cell that you can just capture. it's a huge organization operating from within civilian population.
Hamas is not a terrorist cell, they fight for freedom from the occupation forces. Palestine has been occupied for quite some time now, and even though Israel hasn't been physically in Gaza, it is still tightly controlled by Israel, Israel controls EVERYTHING, and they keep breaking the geneva convention.
The truth is that ethnic cleansing has been going on for decades, since Israel was founded. Every week, more and more palestinians are evicted from their homes in Jerusalem and jews take over. This is ethnic cleansing, and we bombed Serbia for such activities.
Few of you understand that palestinians don't fear Hamas. Hamas is a humanitarian organization in addition to its political and miliary wings. They build schools, kinder gardens, hospitals, etc etc. They are loved, not feared.
Mourhelm does what the ignorant usually does, shuts his eyes, trying to ignore the truth, trying to ignore our posts.
To say that Hamas is feared, really shows how little you know of what you are talking about.
It's sad to see Israel become a new Nazi-germany, a new south africa. When jews themselves cry out about holocaust repeating itself, and south africans say Israel run an apartheid politic, it's about time you stop and listen, because these ppl KNOW what they are talking about.
Anyone who fights for freedom from oppression is an enemy of the state, and enemies of the state are called just 'terrorists.'
"Hamas is a humanitarian organization in addition to its political and miliary wings."
If we're to side with stoffi, it means that we have to accept the fact that Hitler, despite all the death he caused, was still a good guy, because he built roads.
yea it's not stoffi's first attempt to make Hamas look good... lol, he even tried to make the nazis look good, hahahaha
Maybe he's a terrorist on the inside?
A danish terrorist, no less.
Hamas Charter
Here are a few quotes:
The Motto of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) - "Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model to be followed, the Koran its constitution, Jihad its way, and death for the sake of Allah its loftiest desire."
"There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are a waste of time and a farce."
LOL, perfect example.Quote:
Originally Posted by VT2
Hitler did lots for "his" people, doesnt matter that because of one man 25 million CIVILIANS died in World war 2 and over 45 million military personel.
To see the full death statistics of WW2 - http://www.world-war-2.info/statistics/
I know we cant really compare Hamas to Hitler and the Nazis but for theoretical examples it worked.
Killing innocent people is wrong. Thats what it comes down to, but Hamas need to be stopped.
You are not making any sense. If it was only the terrorists alone, of course we wouldn't care overly much whether they lived or died. But you are not bombing only terrorists. You're bombing their families with them. You're bombing schools filled with children cause there is a weapons depot underneath.Quote:
I asked you about paying the price of a dozen for your friends for 0 kids and 0 civilians. I guess you wouldn't pay that, would you?
I guess 40 years of warfare can make you slightly pessimistic.Quote:
"There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are a waste of time and a farce."
In one of my posts I gave an example from the same day, when BOTH parties did that. If you'd been inpartial, not so blinded by propaganda, you'd know that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo
And who is to blame that the weapons depot is there? Would you make a minefield on the route to the school of your kid?
2008-1948 = 60. So, add 20 more to your 40 :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Nemo
ALL priests are versed into propagande... that's what they do. One of the best propaganda machine is religion/church.Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffi
1987-1948=39~40 years. Hamas was created in 1987.Quote:
2008-1948 = 60. So, add 20 more to your 40
In that case, Israel should not act so morally good and admit that they are the same as Hamas.Quote:
In one of my posts I gave an example from the same day, when BOTH parties did that. If you'd been inpartial, not so blinded by propaganda, you'd know that.
from and with people who, today are in war for 60 :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Nemo
Also, Hamas says that THEY are the morally good... so there you are... again we're back to propaganda and hidden agendas wich keep the war going on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo
The charter was created around the time when Hamas was created. It was written in 1988 [check the charter link provided by Mourhelm]. At that moment, it had been 40 years of war.Quote:
from and with people who, today are in war for 60 :P
Yes, but a Hamas supporter isn't on these forums pretending to be on the morally high ground. I've said it before in this thread: if there was anybody saying it, I'd be criticizing him shoulder to shoulder with you.Quote:
Also, Hamas says that THEY are the morally good... so there you are... again we're back to propaganda and hidden agendas wich keep the war going on.
I thought this guy resonated strongly with me:
http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery01022009.html
Can the trolls please crawl back to their caves.
Does anyone remember Shamir, twice pm of Israel? He was a high ranking member in Levi, a jewish terror organization who once slaughtered an entire village. They bombed cafe's, busses, hotels, killed jews who were against them, bombed the brits, killed UN officials, etc.
Do you remember Menachem Begin? He was a leader in Irgun, a jewish terror organization. He also became Prime minister.
Rabin came from a more moderate terror group, Haganah. Another PM also came from Haganah, and lots of foreign ministers and defence minister and you name it came from these terror organizations, even Sharon fought in a terror organization.
The very foundation of Israel is built on TERROR.
But bombing busses and cafe's was okay back then, according to Israel today. They celebrate the bombing of Hotel King David every year, where over 90 ppl were killed. Menachem begin and Levi are national heroes, and Levi got his own memorial day. Levi was the most extreme terrorist of them all btw.
Why do they celebrate terrorists and their bus bombings, when they at the same time condemn Hamas for bombing the desert?
They praise jewish terrorism, but condemn it when it's done against them.
Israel has nothing against terror, they embrace it and use it every day.
Because those terror organizations became the core of the IDF and all leadership came from terrorist organizations. Likud is the new name for Irgun/Levi, and as you know Kadima came from Likud.
That's why Israel won't hesitate to bomb civilians, it's in their blood, Israel was founded on killing civilians and using terror as a weapon. And so far it's worked very well.
The you should be the first, since trolling includes posting **** to get an emotional response, wich you do, and do in every post.Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffi
A few posts above were examples about what and when Hamas bombed. Kindergarden is not desert. Neither schools. Hamas is just as guilty as the israelis. You're blind and biased and each and every of your posts are directed towards flaming and emotional response. So basically you're trolling. No, you won't get an emotional response from me. I'm not jew neither arab. I don't have symphaties for neither.Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffi
Both parties have their big share of ****, and the fact that neither want to get to an agreement despise the fact that they are out of any "engagement rules" shows us clearly how effectively mass media/propaganda can brainwash people like you, stoffi, who have absolutely no business in the area, still allways have an extreme opinion.
It's clear for me that if you can be such a good clay to be worked out by the general propaganda machine, for the people who actually live in the area and gets the same manipulation on both sides for the last 60 or more years, it's impossible to think clean.
Of course they will blame each other and will revenge the other's action with even more violent actions. It doesn't matter who starts the problems every time. It doesn't matter who has the biggest or lowest casualities.
The fact that ther are over a thousand victims and half of them are civilians on the palestinian side but only 13-15 on israeli side means absolutaly nothing, it's just the hazard of life. It's not because Hamas would be morally better or worse than Israelis.
It's not that Hamas doesn't want to kill israelis. It's just that, at this time the israelis have more effective defense than the Hamas has offence. Also as the palestinian side's casualities show, the have more effective offence too.
If Hamas, who launched more than 700 rockets in 15 days into Israel, bombing everything they could reach, yes, including schools and kindergardens, wouldn't be so damn ineffective, or the israeli shelters wouldn't be so effective, the israeli side would have same casualities. They didn't sent the rockets because they wanted fireworks on the New Years Eve sky. They sent them hoping that they will kill israelis. Denying that would be imbecile.
So, don't give us that "oh poor victims" speech. It's not working.
Both sides are to blame.
And several other islamic countries who have interests in the area.
And the western world including the USA, who pushed so hard for democratic elections, then after Hamas won, they didn't recognised it as a legitime election.
And several other european countries who lick oil-rich middle eastern countries asses, otherwise they will be cut off from the sweet slice of black pie.
And China, Iran plus Russia who are the other big countries selling weapons there, beside the USA.
So cut the crap, the whole thing is not about some palestinian casualities.
Is about oil, weapons, strategical assistance, political influence, mass media, multi-milion dollar businesses, several other factors versus 2 "nations" who are brainwashed enough after 60 years to want to kill each others.
Remember: Humans are weird creatures: one man can be a genious while the flock allways will be much closer to animal than human.
I found the needed time to look.Quote:
Originally Posted by MourhelmI agree it doesn't say that explicitly in my quote of the Geneva convention, but I'm sure you can find it.Quote:
Originally Posted by AFKain
I will take the time to look for it later (I'm kinda busy now and I need to reformat my computer).
From Protocol 1 Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 1977:
From the forth Geneva convention:Quote:
Article 58.-Precautions against the effects of attacks
The Parties to the conflict shall, to the maximum extent feasible:
(a) Without prejudice to Article 49 of the Fourth Convention, endeavour to remove the civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects under their control from the vicinity of military objectives;
(b) Avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas;
(c) Take the other necessary precautions to protect the civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects under their control against the dangers resulting from military operations.
As per AFKain's request, a more explicit text that shows that, according to international law, Hamas is responsible for the civilian population in the Gaza strip and for their deaths.Quote:
Art. 28. The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.
Also I find it interesting that EVERY time something happens in Israel/Palestina, we HAVE to hear about it. The media bombards us with news every 3 hours... we hear the opinions of all... we allmost can see the **** splatting in direct transmission... the whole world cries because 1000 people died in an area where many states are loaded with oil.
- War in Sudan - 500.000 deaths since 2003.
- The Kivu Conflict (Democratic Republic of Congo) - 4 MILION DEAD since 2003
and many more....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_conflicts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...2%80%93current
Why people like stoffi don't hit their butts to the floor in outrage for the casualities because of the above ONGOING CONFLICTS?
Is that because the media doesn't shove it in his muff so hard? Because there are less multi-milion-dollar-interests than in the middle east so news come in horsecarriages not by internet?
C'mon hypocrits, proove me that the somali or sudani deaths are less important than the middle eastern, that's why you load the forums with soap to clean up either Hamas or the IDF...
That's cause people aren't on these forums saying it's "about time" those conflicts got started.Quote:
Why people like stoffi don't hit their butts to the floor in outrage for the casualities because of the above ONGOING CONFLICTS?
Of course they matter. But let me quote from silly hollywood movie called Sahara:Quote:
C'mon hypocrits, proove me that the somali or sudani deaths are less important than the middle eastern
The media cares the least.Quote:
Relax, it's Africa. Nobody cares about Africa.
Ain't that the truth.Quote:
one man can be a genious while the flock allways will be much closer to animal than human.
Irgun, shorthand for Irgun Tsvai Leumi was a paramilitary Zionist group that operated in the British Mandate of Palestine from 1931 to 1948. In Israel, this group is consistently referred to Etzel, a contraction of the Hebrew initials. It was classified by British authorities as a "terrorist organization" but many regarded it to be a "liberation movement".
While the strategy, tactics, and operational methods of the organization changed through the years, its primary goals were to: Provide a non-Socialist alternative to the leading Zionist organizations; Eliminate or reduce the threat of Arab attacks on Jewish targets by assured and harsh retaliation for such attacks; Bring to an end the British mandatory rule, which they considered in violation of international law
From its inception, the group went through several phases in its short lifespan.
During the Great Uprising (1936-1939), in which about 400 Jews were killed in Arab attacks, Irgun resumed its reprisal attacks against Arabs. Following the killing of five Jews at Kibbutz Qiryat Anavim on November 9, 1937, Irgun launched a series of attacks which lasted until the beginning of World War II, in which more than 250 Arab civilians were killed.
These attacks coincided roughly with Irgun's campaign of facilitating immigration of European Jews who faced discrimination, murder and pogroms in Europe. The first vessel arrived on April 13, 1937, and the last on February 13, 1940. All told, about 18,000 Jews escaped genocide in Europe in this way.
From 1940 through 1943, Irgun declared a truce against the British, and supported Allied efforts against Nazi forces and Arab allies in the area by enlisting its members in British forces and the Jewish Brigade. A small group group lead by Avraham Stern, who insisted on continuing to fight the British, broke off and formed and independent group (LEHI). In 1941, the Irgun leader, David Raziel volunteered for a dangerous mission in Iraq to assassinate Amin al-Husayni, but was killed by a German bomber before the operation could be finished. In February of 1944, under the new leadership of Menachem Begin, Irgun resumed hostilities against the British authorities. The purpose of these attacks was to bring public attention to the cost and ineffectiveness of the British mandatory rule. It included attacks on prominent symbols of the British administration, including British military, police, and civil headquarters at the King David Hotel and the British prison in Acre. Although these attacks were largely successful, several Irgun operatives were captured, convicted, and hanged. Refusing to accept the jurisdiction of the British courts, those accused refused to defend themselves. The Irgun leadership ultimately responded to these executions by hanging two British sergeants, which effectively brought the executions to an end.
Following the murder of Lord Moyne by Lehi, the Yishuv and Jewish Agency initiated "The Hunting Season" on Irgun and the Lehi group, facilitating the arrest of some 1000 members of those organizations who were interned in British camps. The British deported 251 of them to camps in Africa.
From about October of 1945 until July 1946 Irgun was in an alliance with the Haganah and Lehi called the Jewish Resistance Movement, organized to fight British restrictions on Jewish immigration. This alliance ended when Irgun bombed British military, police, and civil headquarters at the King David Hotel as a retaliation for Operation Agatha.
Legacy of Irgun: Leaders within the mainstream Jewish Agency, Haganah, and Histadrut, as well as British authorities, routinely condemned Irgun operations as "terrorist" and branded it as an "illegal organization". In their defense, former Irgun leaders assert that: The premises for their founding and strategy were vindicated by subsequent events. Arab violence against Jews in the mandate of Palestine could only be deterred through retaliation; the British authorities only ended their restrictions on Jewish immigration when pressured by force; and unrestricted Jewish immigration was a matter of saving lives, both during the Shoah and during post-World War II pogroms in Poland and the Ukraine.
Operations that are usually characterized as "terrorist" had another character. The King David Hotel attack was considered a legitimate military target, being the British military headquarters; the attack on Deir Yassin was part of a campaign to control the road between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv; the attack on the Acre prison was to release prisoners the British intended to hang. At least one of the attacks plainly made against civilians was unauthorized by the Irgun.
Just wanted to clear up stoffis comments on Jewish terrorist which is a cotradiction in terms considering while these newly formed Jewish military organizations were fighting for the survival of thier race throughout the world at the time of all out effort by Arabs and Nazi's alike to destroy them and at the same time British policies tried to tie thier hands to respond to these events.
Those Jewish entities attacked/retaled against arab attacks and a British mandate that was crippiling thier ability to respond to arab attacks.
Once again stoffi your on the wrong side of the fence with this one.
Sub Note
Operation Agatha
Operation Agatha (Saturday, June 29, 1946) sometimes called Black Shabbat or Black Saturday because it began on the Jewish sabbath, was a police and military operation conducted by the British authorities in the British Mandate of Palestine. Soldiers and police searched for arms and made arrests in Jerusalem, Tel-Aviv, and Haifa, and in several dozen settlements; the semi-official Jewish Agency was raided. The total number of British security forces involved is variously reported as 10,000, 17,000, and 25,000. About 2,700 individuals were arrested, among them Moshe Sharett. The British objectives included dissuading the Haganah and the Palmach, Lehi (Stern Gang), and the Irgun Tzvai Leumi, from undertaking further attacks against British troops and officials, as well as possibly dissuading a unilateral proclamation of a Jewish state, and bolstering morale...
The British operations were extensive. Low flying planes circled Jerusalem. Roadblocks were maintained, trains were flagged down, and passengers were evacuated and escorted home. Special licenses were required for the operations of emergency vehicles. Curfews were imposed.
Arms caches were discovered. At Kibbutz Yagur, the troops found more than 300 rifles, some 100 2-inch mortars, more than 400,000 bullets, some 5,000 grenades and 78 revolvers. The arms were displayed at a press conference, and all the men of Yagur were arrested.[4]
Agatha triggered echoes of the Holocaust in the minds of many people. Women ripped their clothing to expose concentration camp tattoos. There were incidents of people in the settlements herded into cages while screaming that this was what the Nazis did. A minority among the British troops exacerbated the situation by shouting "Heil Hitler," scrawling swastikas on walls, and referring to gas chambers while conducting searches
After Agatha ended, the kidnapped British officers were released, and High Commissioner Alan Cunningham commuted the Irgun members' death sentences to life imprisonment.
The Haganah and Palmach was dissuaded from continued anti-British operations.[6] However, the more extreme groups, the Lehi (Stern Gang) and the Irgun Tzvai Leumi, headed by future Prime Minister Menachem Begin, continued and even intensified their attacks.[7]
Specifically, the Irgun retaliated for Operation Agatha by bombing the south wing of the King David Hotel, which was the headquarters of the British government in Palestine
CIVILIANS
The only mention i see in all of this is 250 civilinn arab deaths after 405 jewish cilvilian deaths had occured....
Everything here metioned from these so called British terrorist tagged newly formed Jewish Military units was in response to either German,British,or arab operations performed against the Jews first.!
Now stoffi you show me a lagitimt scenario where the Jews attacked anyone that was not attacking them restraing them or setting up to attack them ie: the 6 day war ,cause I just can't find it anywhere.
Again I go back to the fact that the British Mandate was the reason for this debacle in the middle east,
To give Trans Jordan 75% of the Palestinian area was a huge mistake...and yet to this day noone talks of giving that land back to the Palestinians
This whole thing is a farce if the Arab Palestinians fought for 75% of old Palestine (which is now most of Jordan) as they do with the 25% of the palesrinain area the jews live on and built up then they would actually have my support ,cause at that time I would feel it just was not about a religious war of one faith wanting to destroy another faith......and that it was actually about land for palestinian people of all faiths to live in peace .....once that time comes wake me up,other than that it's surviaval of the fitist!
NEMO
Quote:
Why people like stoffi don't hit their butts to the floor in outrage for the casualities because of the above ONGOING CONFLICTS?
That's cause people aren't on these forums saying it's "about time" those conflicts got started.
It is about time nemo....
Where I come from in my town on my street,,if you throw a rock through my window and I know where you live ,I'm coming to beat your azz to the point you will never want to throw a rock through my window ever again!
And if your ever brave enough to do it again cause God told you to do it......I brake your fingers and arms so that you physically can not throw any rocks anywhere the rest of your life.
Don' make me post horrible thing the flock does... it's not appropriate in a PG13 forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo