Congratulations to the age 72 winners!

So the admins waited almost 1 month to announce a rule change, immediately before EoA, that allowed them to delete a player & his kingdom from the charts after achieving #1 Land/NW, after already actioning them for their rule violation.

And it happens that all 4 admins have bad blood with the monarch in question and the KD that ended up being gifted the Crown by this rule change is a former home to 1 of the owners.

And to defend their half-assed move, this is BB's owner-friends response to justify the last second decision to delete Spartans from the charts and replace them with BB for #1:

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<DavidC> I do believe the Rules state that prior notification is not necessary

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What a pathetic joke.

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Originally Posted by Sheister

This is a common criticism for penalty systems. Even in official criminal justice systems there are sometimes punishments handed out that seem arbitrary to the general public. Nevertheless we trust judges (the dev's in this case) to do their best. They are human and flawed and prone to errors in all sorts of ways, but we place our trust in their good intentions even when things may not seem the best.

I recall a case in the regulation of lawyers in my state. There is an attorney I know who mishandled $500 bucks of a client's funds (deposited them in the wrong account) discovered the error, corrected it and made sure the client got their money back. He lost his license. I know another attorney who filed false affidavits in over 10,000 foreclosure cases on which those 10,000 homes were lost, assuming an average home price of $200k that is over $2B in damage to the people of my state. That attorney got a 90 day suspension and is still practicing law.

It can be hard to reconcile things like that. I won't pretend that I can or try to. All I can say is that people do their best and try to make things work and be fair. The devs are doing a lot of things that I don't like. The threads these last few weeks are filled to the brim of my pet peeves. They are doing what they think is in the best interest of game expansion. I understand and respect that. The process for making that happen will be imperfect. It will be full of correct decisions and mistakes and reversals. All we can do is trust that they mean the best for the game, as it is what they have invested in, thus their financial interest is to do what is best for the game.

I will ask this question of the people who think they just want to put their e-buddies in the crown. Lets say they only paid $25,000 for the entire game. Can you tell me which of your e-buddies you would jeopardize a $25,000 investment for? Does that make any sense?

It doesn't does it?

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oh... and 25000usd is nothing. thats like my budget for drinking and parties this year. meh...

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Originally Posted by Xist

Because they were influenced into making that decision. They don't know what they are doing. Or they think it's more acceptable to waste people's time and money, and not just on the guilty parties. Who they seem to feel should be punished till the end of time.

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Perhaps they just don't want to encourage cheating and even moreso not make it rewarding to cheat?

I guess the worse thing about Sparta losing out for their actions, is the pride they had in winning, before the fall.

Oh what a fall.

Congrats to all the winners, and the kds and provinces that have done well.

And the winner is.......the one manipulated this game!!!

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Originally Posted by Pillz

So the admins waited almost 1 month to announce a rule change, immediately before EoA, that allowed them to delete a player & his kingdom from the charts after achieving #1 Land/NW, after already actioning them for their rule violation.

And it happens that all 4 admins have bad blood with the monarch in question and the KD that ended up being gifted the Crown by this rule change is a former home to 1 of the owners.

And to defend their half-assed move, this is BB's owner-friends response to justify the last second decision to delete Spartans from the charts and replace them with BB for #1:



What a pathetic joke.

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Anyone can be removed at anytime it seems like going forward.

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Originally Posted by Proteus

@JeffT the issue with your approach is it prevented true competition for what could have been a legitimate crown. At this point in the age, the kd you actioned had an insurmountable advantage (short of GB by everyone but not enough time to make things fair after and enable competition) so everyone else gave up. Had these intentions been known, there would have been actual competition for the #2 spot knowing it would turn into the #1 spot. Hence there was no real winner. I think better communication is needed.

Additionally, you guys shouldn't really count on the server to action cheaters that's hardly ever works. Best if the admins do it and let everyone else enjoy the game than being removed from their goals to police people. It's up the admins to ensure integrity is upheld rather than self policing as such policing has always been hypocritical and for selfish gain.

When proper punishment happens too late, players are tuned out and already give up on the age. The harm has already been done in spite of the outcome and this age has been wasted for those who actually competed for land / NW rankings.

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Its pretty hard to GB a kingdom 20% larger than the next one while it has war protection and ~350g elites.
And I think Jeff said that time limitations prevented them from doing the punishments right at the time, forcing them to just do it now.

It's actually pretty funny lol

Im a huge fan of removing cheaters from the charts, this is the very best way of "policing" the game, tho i think if a kingdom get an infraction a msg should be send to the kingdom so they can jump ship if they like, but i gusse you just know now, if you had any admin visit in the age you will not chart, so where is the line ?, i mean 3-4 people getting deleted ?, is that really the fault of the kingdom if a few guys cheat, again i think a simple msg is all it takes.

Good work on this Hawk and Zauper, its the correct and clever step forward.

Sparta still crowned anyway. Whoever who got placed on the top after Sparta got deleted, is no other then #2.

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Originally Posted by Nibornibor

Sparta still crowned anyway. Whoever who got placed on the top after Sparta got deleted, is no other then #2.

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Why do you like cheating so much, is it cause you are bad player and need to cheat to achieve anything in Utopia?

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Originally Posted by Korp

Why do you like cheating so much, is it cause you are bad player and need to cheat to achieve anything in Utopia?

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I honestly have no idea what your talking about.

I commend the devs. They showed bawls. They are in charge.
Not some whiny cheaters who thought it was too late. Simple lesson to be learned here. Cheat and be dealt with. I wouldnt want a crown if my KD mates cheated to get it. It would be meaningless and empty.

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Originally Posted by Vasp

Dont want to sound too much of a lawyer but the implementation of new punishments cant be retroactively applied to previously commited actions. Allow me to explain with a simple example. Say that I killed someone and I got punished for 25 years and then a new law is approved that punishes murders for 30 years.... the justice simple cant go back and punish me for 30. Thats a basic justice principal of non-retroactivity of criminal punishment. There is only one exception and that is if they new law benefits the criminal.

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No disagreement here. A fundamental question is if it was retroative in fact or merely unannounced (if it makes a difference).

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Going back to this case, lets assume that bart cheated (which I disagree but lets assume it)... the guide or the rulebook doenst say u get deleted from the rankings. Thats a new punishment that is trying to retroactively punish an offense. It isnt just in any justice system.

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There I am not so certain. I am aware of jurisdictions where judges have been criticized for some "exotic" punishments (for example, wearing shaming shirts, etc.) that are not on the books but have been upheld. So I don't think the novel nature of the punishment necessarily disqualifies it.

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But anywayzzzzz, at the end of the day, Bart won and the qqing admins cant stop that. GG till next age

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I guess that is one way to look at it. The other way to look at it is that he cheated and did not win. All depends. For example, in many sporting events you don't get disqualified until the end.

Think about olympic speed walking. You are allowed a certain number of fouls, but you complete the race. You cross the finish line first, but ultimately are removed from rankings at the end and your time is not recorded.

Swimming. If a member of a relay team takes off early, the race proceeds to the end and disqualification happens at the end.


So if we view utopia more like a race, this is perfectly consistent.

OTOH, if we view this like a hocky game, you don't call slashing in the third period for an infraction in the first period.


So. Is utopia hockey? Or is it a race?


The devs seem to be saying it is a race.

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Originally Posted by Vasp

oh... and 25000usd is nothing. thats like my budget for drinking and parties this year. meh...

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I don't know what the purchase price is, nor is that the point. When was the last time you advanced one of your utopia buds 25K?

i m not playimg in sparta but the new owners are biased by giving their bumboys the crown. The game has sunk to an all time low.

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Originally Posted by Humanoize

i m not playimg in sparta but the new owners are biased by giving their bumboys the crown. The game has sunk to an all time low.

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I can assure you I have never given anyone anal play.

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Originally Posted by protector

Its pretty hard to GB a kingdom 20% larger than the next one while it has war protection and ~350g elites.
And I think Jeff said that time limitations prevented them from doing the punishments right at the time, forcing them to just do it now.

It's actually pretty funny lol

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It's totally funny guys!

yes, that is why I point out that the changes in mechanics made all of this happen given the environment of the utopia community.

Funny how it works.

The "how" is what I find most sad actually.

It is the "why" that pains me.

While I can't say I'm particularly proud of crowning this way, it is what it is. Feels empty though.

On the other hand, deleting cheaters from the chart is the best damn thing that's happened in a long time. If you get actioned you shouldn't crown, period. In the long run, good for the integrity of the game.

Im pretty confused here... Enforcing fair and honorable play... is it honorable to 2vs1 a kingdom? What is the line in the sand to not cross here? please tell me forever it wont just be gut reactions ... is the new standard now this?

i find it pretty funny all the people coming in here to say My kingdom never does this!!! you guys all collude... you guys interact with each other in shady ways on platforms outside of utopia and you all know whos dirty... Watch out... never know whos next on a whim

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Originally Posted by RollinHammer

Im pretty confused here... Enforcing fair and honorable play... is it honorable to 2vs1 a kingdom? What is the line in the sand to not cross here? please tell me forever it wont just be gut reactions ... is the new standard now this?

i find it pretty funny all the people coming in here to say My kingdom never does this!!! you guys all collude... you guys interact with each other in shady ways on platforms outside of utopia and you all know whos dirty... Watch out... never know whos next on a whim

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I certainly don't and my kingdom certainly doesn't. Just these drama queens at the top.

Don't loop in everybody to your nonsense comment.

I am not sure any commenter in this thread is saying they are pure. I maybe missed the post of our resident saints, but I am pretty sure no one is posting that RollinHammer.

I'm not pure, I simply take measures to curtail my ability to be impure.

We charted around 150 something: where purity begins :D

So ****ing funny.

Sparta will continue claiming they crowned, because 'we don't need a game history to show us we were top - we KNOW we ended top, therefore it's a crown in our eyes'. Everyone else will claim Spartans didn't win a crown because it can't be found in the history charts. Doesn't really matter either way.

But to everyone whining about this being unfair - get a grip. You cheat, you get disqualified. I have no problems with that. You push the rules very vocally, very publicly, encouraging the devs to attack you so you can make a point to the rest of the community, and then you get actioned for it - such justice.

Certainly surprised by this but not against it, I hope this will be the consistent treatment of all kingdomwide cheating from here on, sending some strong signals to any would be cheater.

To bad you did not find out who was behind the kingdom 1:1 Mark of the Beast or you could have removed whoever setup that farm kingdom as well from the charts, would have proven to all the non believers that this was indeed about punishing cheaters and not about punishing Bart.

Congratulations to whoever ran the province pringels time, I'm not sure if your kingdom would have messed with me had it looked like I would take 1 in land for dryad, but in the end I got rammed for days by some random dude + his two 1 million nw kd fellors that could not take the way I chose to retaliate his hits, and I could not give you a decent race for 1.

Also congratulations to Noobs, the ww/honor crown is the only major one without controversy this time arround, and engaging several of your closest rivals for this crown is definally the best way to crown. Hoping that you might get a chance to compete on even footing with Barcoloco next age if they get their team togeter again, that would be one heck of a war I'm sure.

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Originally Posted by s0830887

So ****ing funny.

Sparta will continue claiming they crowned, because 'we don't need a game history to show us we were top - we KNOW we ended top, therefore it's a crown in our eyes'. Everyone else will claim Spartans didn't win a crown because it can't be found in the history charts. Doesn't really matter either way.

But to everyone whining about this being unfair - get a grip. You cheat, you get disqualified. I have no problems with that. You push the rules very vocally, very publicly, encouraging the devs to attack you so you can make a point to the rest of the community, and then you get actioned for it - such justice.

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What happened Josh.... Last I heard you were still on awesome terms with Bart lol <3

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Originally Posted by astron

What happened Josh.... Last I heard you were still on awesome terms with Bart lol <3

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Haha I am able to separate liking Bart as a person with finding Spartans' playstyle these last few weeks disgusting ;) congrats on your crown, Astron! I was, and I'm sure many other ghetto-mons were, really disappointed to not see a battle of the beasts between CR and BB, and then again between Div and BB. THOSE would have been worthy crown-battles.

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Originally Posted by Pillz

So the admins waited almost 1 month to announce a rule change, immediately before EoA, that allowed them to delete a player & his kingdom from the charts after achieving #1 Land/NW, after already actioning them for their rule violation.

And it happens that all 4 admins have bad blood with the monarch in question and the KD that ended up being gifted the Crown by this rule change is a former home to 1 of the owners.

And to defend their half-assed move, this is BB's owner-friends response to justify the last second decision to delete Spartans from the charts and replace them with BB for #1:



What a pathetic joke.

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We all know you hate BB for some reason (lol), but thinking it has anything to do with BB is hilarious lol (and you know it). Pretty sure nobody in BB cares about this "crown" either. Whoever wins, it'd be tainted and a tainted one isn't worth having let alone something to brag about.

Fwiw, they stripped Armstrong of his Tour de France titles years after he won them due to cheating. A month isn't that long?

Its different, they found out he cheated way after his career. The devs already actioned it and to stay in sport terms "once a ref gives a yellow card, the ref commision cannot suspend the player since an action had already been taken."

FWIW, I believe cheating is likely the natural disposition of strong competitors. Those people with that drive to win will ALWAYS look to win, and will not see their actions as wrong - because their actions lead to successfully achieving their goals, which is therefore an immediate justification of said actions. It is harder to NOT cheat than it is to cheat imo. There are very few KDs who consistently play to a particular, say, 'moral' standard in the game, and that's partly because a) there is no universal standard, which means there is always criticism of different actions; b) because cheating is easy and rewarding; and c) because when you see your goals slipping away, people often make a desperate gamble that often pays off.

Commit the crime - fine, whatever. But sack up and be willing to accept your punishment if you do get caught. Own your cheating. Don't sneak around in the shadows, cheating and ****ing around, and then whine when you suffer consequences for those actions. In sport, athletes convicted of doping have their titles stripped long after the fact. I'm fine with that. Others may not be. Doesn't matter what we think. Devs make the rules here.

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Originally Posted by protector

We all know you hate BB for some reason (lol), but thinking it has anything to do with BB is hilarious lol (and you know it). Pretty sure nobody in BB cares about this "crown" either. Whoever wins, it'd be tainted and a tainted one isn't worth having let alone something to brag about.

Fwiw, they stripped Armstrong of his Tour de France titles years after he won them due to cheating. A month isn't that long?

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There is a silver lining for BB though.

After all of the trash talking that Sparta did about Prot being washed up and never accomplishing anything after Bart started playing.....and then BB crowns via Spartans removal lol

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Originally Posted by munk

$ ./manage.py dumprankings
Starting Django application wol
What is the age number? 72
Exclude any kingdoms? (Format: 1:2,1:1) 2:2,1:19
('Excluding', <Kingdom: Sparta Honors Jonas>, '2', '2')
('Excluding', <Kingdom: Spartans Crown>, '1', '19')
Rankings have been output into file: age_72.tar.gz.

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Beautiful mic drop moment. It's like making them watch, so great.

Praise be to the overlords and their sweet sweet justice.

Don't cheat kids.

Congrats to BB on a well earned crown. I knew my man flogger had what it takes!

<Removed for rule violation - personal attack>

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

*inhale*

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

lol, did anyone get a screenshot of rankings just before the age end to send to spartans