A number of mechanics suggestions

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Originally Posted by jdorje

The only reason remaining for the declare range is to stop top kingdoms from running multis to get farmwars. But this was very rare even before this limitation was added, and is almost equally rare (not nonexistent) since. It's possible after one age we will see it won't work and can go back to a 50-200% limitation, or propose another means whereby more hostile hits are needed when the kingdoms are out of range. One thing everyone agrees on though, is that a 75-133% declare limitation is completely broken.

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Not true at all, with the way war win work if i wanted to WIN the war win chart and i was a 2 million nw kd i would instantly put wave after wave into the "top" kds. then let them beat me to a pulp. They can either wait a weak without dicing or they can withdraw and i get 10 points for the win. I mean how many acres are they going to get from me after 48 hours anyway. The declare range very much protects TOP kds from geting endlessly waved all age as kingdoms going for war wins have no reason to hit into them.


Think about it a kd with 17 players at 800 acres with 3 orcs at 4000 acres each. The orcs learn into a top kd every 12 hours over and over. The only real way to deal with those 3 players is to hit them. To do enough damage where the orcs cant keep hiting means you push that kd hostile. Now instant declare. 150k acre kd hiting into a 25.6k acre kd. Your gonna take what 10k acres in the first 48 hours. Then what you think u can match dicing and take another 15000 acres from them (100*25*(5 war+1 cf)). Nope, your gonna withdraw and give that kd a 10 point war win. You really want this to happen to every top kd all age long?

Or even worse a war kd and a whore kd line up, its VERY easy to grow up to about 1/3 the size of top kds in under a week just by randoms if you start at a reasonable size. I then set it up that every Monday i wave lets say rage with learns, they declare on me, farm me out in 48 hours, withdraw short eowcf, and go back to dicing,, while i random+dice and get as big as i can from Wednesday-Sunday. ...its not a fake war if i TRY to hurt them and war them 6-7-8 times in an age, its just i never had a chance. Each week i get 3 points on the WW chart, and they get a say 8000-9000 acres over 2 days (and build up mana for a full dice run post war). Its very abusable to remove declare range since 2 kds can mutually benefit while officially "waring."

At a minimum you'd have to cap the WW bonus ( to min 75% max 133%) even if you remove/change the declare range.

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Originally Posted by Persain

Not true at all, with the way war win work if i wanted to WIN the war win chart and i was a 2 million nw kd i would instantly put wave after wave into the "top" kds. then let them beat me to a pulp. They can either wait a weak without dicing or they can withdraw and i get 10 points for the win. I mean how many acres are they going to get from me after 48 hours anyway. The declare range very much protects TOP kds from geting endlessly waved all age as kingdoms going for war wins have no reason to hit into them.

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No, because they will claim victory. Top kingdoms don't actually like to lose you know. It's just an effect of the way war costs you thousands of acres every day you stay in it. Once that is fixed, top kingdom and regular kingdom play won't be so very different.

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Originally Posted by jdorje

No, because they will claim victory. Top kingdoms don't actually like to lose you know. It's just an effect of the way war costs you thousands of acres every day you stay in it. Once that is fixed, top kingdom and regular kingdom play won't be so very different.

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Dont like loosing huh, i thought top kds were all about wining the crown, and an individual war was nothing more than a stepping stone on along that path. To that end as you cant claim victory till 7 days your just going to withdraw after 2.

In addition it would very much hurt actual warring kds to have the 50% WW moved to 48 hours to protect the top 6-7 kds in the game, and we've seen the results of nerfing dicing. At some point there has to be a limit to the range of war win POINTS you can get from a single war

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Originally Posted by jdorje

The only reason remaining for the declare range is to stop top kingdoms from running multis to get farmwars. But this was very rare even before this limitation was added, and is almost equally rare (not nonexistent) since. It's possible after one age we will see it won't work and can go back to a 50-200% limitation, or propose another means whereby more hostile hits are needed when the kingdoms are out of range. One thing everyone agrees on though, is that a 75-133% declare limitation is completely broken.

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I can guarantee you that not every one agrees, i would also put money down that it won't change. Why the hell are you suddenly unable to take care of kds 25% smaller than you?

Agree with Elits comments in general.

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Originally Posted by Bishop

I can guarantee you that not every one agrees, i would also put money down that it won't change. Why the hell are you suddenly unable to take care of kds 25% smaller than you?

Agree with Elits comments in general.

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It's a combination of things, mainly the overpowered nature of pumping/dicing and not being able to quickly dominate anyone out of war. It is also a matter of many provinces being out of range and no longer being able to help so your bottom provinces get outnumbered and owned.

I am personally fine with this not being changed if the cost to fighting is changed. Winning wars shouldn't cost you a huge amount of position in the race to the crown, it removes the meaning from it. Strength should matter not ability to avoid all fights.

We have seen numerous examples of this new change being abused, what I am curious about is whether you can show an example of a kingdom far out of range able to abuse the old system. It seems to me that if you were not the aggressor kingdom you would just hold the button if out of range. Now what option does a bigger kingdom have? They either eat the wave or give up their age fighting and probably losing acres out of war.

On an aside you are encouraging the top kingdoms to respond in a way that is bad for the game namely raze killing their opponents out of war, possibly from numerous kingdoms. The situation with ghetto cats being hit by multiple kingdoms is partly due to this change.

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Originally Posted by Bishop

I can guarantee you that not every one agrees, i would also put money down that it won't change. Why the hell are you suddenly unable to take care of kds 25% smaller than you?

Agree with Elits comments in general.

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Since you've changed exploring and made banks even more important, every top kingdom runs multiple banks. The top 6 kingdoms this age all had or have banks (some have lost theirs), with a similar number having the same last age. This means a large number of a kingdom's acres are tied up in multiple provinces - the "core" of the kingdom is smaller. Banks can make up 20-25% of a kingdom's acres, leaving the core as 75-80% of the acres. This means that a kingdom 50% of the acres of a bank kingdom can wave a core that's bigger, but not out of reach.

With the old mechanics, smaller kingdoms couldn't do this - at best, they could make a few hits but could not give a button away. GBP and OOW hitting mechanics make bottomfeeding OOW nearly useless. The only real option is razing, which doesn't really help the bigger kingdom. This age, we've seen lots of smaller kingdoms wave up on much bigger kingdoms, leveraging KRNW to give themselves huge advantages against bigger kingdoms. The bigger kingdoms can successfully op back and can raze, but with GBP so great OOW and their gains penalized by KRNW, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to come out ahead.

Smaller kingdoms had KRNW advantages built into to allow them to fight back against bigger kingdoms waving them. They can now use that advantage to wave up. Bigger kingdoms had the protection of war declaration - essentially, a smaller kingdom had to be careful or the bigger kingdom would declare them and use their size to farm them. Without that option in place, smaller kingdoms know that bigger kingdoms would have to give up huge amounts of acres and networth to get into declare range, an unpalatable option.

TL;DR - you took away the best option a bigger kingdom had against a smaller kingdom that would harass them, removing the balance in the dynamics between significantly larger and smaller kingdoms, so now every smaller kingdom can topfeed at will. Kingdoms are penalized for being big by conceding huge advantages to smaller kingdoms and have few options to recoup their losses.

TLDR my ass. Looks totally like a learn to play issue if a kd 25% smaller than you is now such a threat you have to be able to declare on them. But hey, rather than adapt lets make it so you can declare on someone half your size.

NO.

edited by order of my all powerful monarch............ yay

I disagree with TheRock.

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Originally Posted by Bishop

TLDR my ass. Looks totally like a learn to play issue if a kd 25% smaller than you is now such a threat you have to be able to declare on them. But hey, rather than adapt lets make it so you can declare on someone half your size.

NO.

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NO my ass. It's not that your only option is to declare on them, it's that the only option for the larger kingdom to maintain any kind of growth was to declare. With that gone, it's easy to adapt - razes, massacres, diplomacy, fortified+LL and other options are available, it's just that none of those options let you come out anywhere comparable to where you would be if you weren't waved.

Rather than adapt? I've seen at least a half a dozen waves by smaller kingdoms on much larger kingdoms and have seen multiple retal fights. Every single time, the smaller kingdom at the very least effectively stalled the larger kingdom by gaining acres. This system encourages that kind of behavior and that kind of play. Either you don't understand or you don't care that winning fights is not the same as winning chart position, but this is just another change implemented that encourages kingdoms to not grow and makes growing and competing for the top less fun.

But hey, rather than listen to the feedback of people who've seen it in action, maybe we can make snarky comments about it on the forums? NO :)

Can you please indicated these conflicts where smaller kingdoms are waving larger kingdoms outside of their declare range to such a degree that after the wave the larger KD is still large enough that they can't declare?

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Originally Posted by Sheister

Can you please indicated these conflicts where smaller kingdoms are waving larger kingdoms outside of their declare range to such a degree that after the wave the larger KD is still large enough that they can't declare?

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Let's start with a partial list! YAY!

Sanctuary vs Snakes
Rage vs Insolence
Hall of Heroes vs Psych Ward

I'm using Absalom kingdoms for obvious reasons, but there have been plenty on almost all large kingdoms.

Fact: the best method for a top kingdom to try and win an age right now is to find a smaller kingdom that wants to grow and getting them to wave a huge kingdom. This is an open secret.

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Originally Posted by TheRock

Let's start with a partial list! YAY!

Sanctuary vs Snakes
Rage vs Insolence
Hall of Heroes vs Psych Ward

I'm using Absalom kingdoms for obvious reasons, but there have been plenty on almost all large kingdoms.

Fact: the best method for a top kingdom to try and win an age right now is to find a smaller kingdom that wants to grow and getting them to wave a huge kingdom. This is an open secret.

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Sanctuary waved snakes
rage waved insolence ( I am pretty sure)
hall waved psych ward too I think (but I am not sure there)

So, in short, no. Smaller KDs are not waving larger KD's they are hitting back.

so it seems the basis of this mechanic suggestion is that larger KD's do not want smaller KD's to hit back anymore.

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Originally Posted by TheRock

NO my ass. It's not that your only option is to declare on them, it's that the only option for the larger kingdom to maintain any kind of growth was to declare. With that gone, it's easy to adapt - razes, massacres, diplomacy, fortified+LL and other options are available, it's just that none of those options let you come out anywhere comparable to where you would be if you weren't waved.

Rather than adapt? I've seen at least a half a dozen waves by smaller kingdoms on much larger kingdoms and have seen multiple retal fights. Every single time, the smaller kingdom at the very least effectively stalled the larger kingdom by gaining acres. This system encourages that kind of behavior and that kind of play. Either you don't understand or you don't care that winning fights is not the same as winning chart position, but this is just another change implemented that encourages kingdoms to not grow and makes growing and competing for the top less fun.

But hey, rather than listen to the feedback of people who've seen it in action, maybe we can make snarky comments about it on the forums? NO :)

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Quoting myself to make another point!

Every single age, kingdoms adapt to the changes made by the developers. You make race and personality changes, you make mechanics changes, you make rules changes. We adapt. No more FW? We adapt. Fortified? We adapt. Faery can't attack? We adapt. Legal trading? We adapt. Changes to war ending? We adapt. Changes to the meter? We adapt. Changes to explore cost? We adapt.

We aren't sitting here giving you feedback because we can't adapt. If that were the case, you wouldn't see the same kingdoms (on all sides of the Utopian landscape) at or near the top of the charts every age. We're giving you feedback because the changes that were made could (and SHOULD) be improved. Instead of actually giving reasons why you disagree, Bishop, you give a silly response about us not wanting to change the way we play. That's total crap. My point stands, as you've yet to say anything to actually discredit or even challenge the argument.

http://forums.utopia-game.com/showth...1#post15166168

quoted to illustrate the point that your premise seems to be reversed from reality. Will look for other threads another time.

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Originally Posted by Sheister

Sanctuary waved snakes
rage waved insolence ( I am pretty sure)
hall waved psych ward too I think (but I am not sure there)

So, in short, no. Smaller KDs are not waving larger KD's they are hitting back.

so it seems the basis of this mechanic suggestion is that larger KD's do not want smaller KD's to hit back anymore.

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You went .5/3 :)
Sanctuary hit Snakes, was not a wave. I'm sure you'll make a point with Snakes waving them being a response to that, so I'll concede a half a point there. .5/1
Insolence waved Rage. (As an aside, recognizing the power of this strategy, Insolence later referred to ONLY taking 1 wave from Rage as "a mistake") 0/1
Psych Ward waved HOH. 0/1

So, in short, yes. Smaller KDs are waving Larger KDs.

It seems the basis of the mechanic issue is that KRNW on kingdoms that small makes it ridiculously hard to outgain kingdoms while matching hits, leaving the options for the larger kingdom as largely destructive (Raze, Massacre) tools which, at best, set the larger kingdom back and keep the smaller kingdom stagnant.