A number of mechanics suggestions

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Originally Posted by TheRock

How long can you force Peace on someone? Until EOA? 96h, like Fort?

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How about 96h, just like postwar cf?

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Originally Posted by TheRock

Also, when can Peace be dropped? What happens if I Peace you and 3 days later we want to war?

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The natural solution would be that peace, unless answered, can be dropped just like a stance after 12h with the inability to gain the button for the next 12 hours to avoid "traps" if the other kd won't stop.

If kingdom B never accepts the peace offer then it automatically drops after 96 hours just like the fortified stance, making another peace offer unavailable for the next 24 hours.

If kingdom B accepts the peace then it should run the full 96 hours since it only protects them from each other.

And my own notations:

Affect for KD A who declare peace
1. War declare is not possible for both sides! <-- A viable option as long as the peace option only is available to a kingdom who is at least 100 hostile points behind at the time they wishes to press the button.
2. Kingdom can declare peace only if his metter is x2 less. <-- x amounts never work. Give them a fixed number, like whatever you gain from a full wave and some more (40 TM? 50 TM?)
3. When KD A declare peace they loss all hostile ops.
4. Reduce gains from attack with 10% <--- Make it 50% and let it multiply with fortified hence a peace offer from fort gives you 25% gains on the kingdom you requested peace with.

Result for KD B after peace is declared:
1. they keep all hostile ops if KD A keep retal. <--- Make it so that they keep all hostile ops for 2 hours since the last hit from KD A. This will encourage some strategy and activity if KD A want to keep doing hostile actions
2. +4h attack time <-- Fog was removed since it slowed people down too much on their daily attack schedule. However, this one is easily calculated with and I would suggest to make it +4 hours with a 12h window which makes the effect successfully enter during the first wave into peace and reach full effect after 12h.
3. +10% army losses. <-- Make it +30% since +10% army losses is easily countered for several races
4. Kingdom B get option to Force in game CF for 48h. <--- Basically a one round max gain for the attacking kingdom. Peace can be costly.

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Originally Posted by TheRock

What's the goal of Peace?

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Now, this isn't my suggestion but I believe that the goal of "peace" is to give the aggressor something in return of them moving on and looking for better hunting grounds.

However, this suggestion feels like it belongs with a general makeover where aggression is promoted, so that even though another kd gets some breathing room they still have to deal with the everlasting threat of other kds waving.

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Originally Posted by Mordrek

So you expected us to drop you into declaration range :) Then I revoke my comment about the free acres.

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We expected a hostile - you guys had 2/2 War Wins so you couldn't be retards. Once you FBed our bank, as expected, the NW gap closed considerably. We basically traded being in range every wave, but you guys wanted to have your armies home to hit in war when you declared, which was what caused problems.

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It's funny that you mention it, since we had forgot about the relative nw part until some 20 hours before we sat our declaration date and the discussions was more about the question whether we would create a dual button once at max hostile or not...

...and you gave us a really fun week with your wave, and it was a nice war so I don't want to ruin whatever relations and good air it gave both our kids...

...however, if Maximouse told you that he had 3 different declaration dates then probably he had even though he never mentioned it to his council.

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Maximouse's quote on declare range was at around 19:00 on July 3rd, we waved on 10:00 on July 3rd (approximately). I know you guys randomed outside of hostile a lot though, to make sure you kept button.

Session Start: Tue Jul 03 10:57:59 2012
Session Ident: maximouse
[10:57] Session Ident: maximouse (Absalom, therock) (maximouse@absalom-E7CDB56E.dynamic.upc.nl)
[10:57] <maximouse> hey
[10:58] <therock> hi!
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[10:58] maximouse is maximouse@absalom-E7CDB56E.dynamic.upc.nl * ...
[10:58] maximouse on #mercy +#absalom @#kingdom @#nl
[10:58] maximouse using irc.absalom.info Absalom Phoenix Server
[10:58] maximouse has been idle 45secs, signed on Tue Jul 03 10:40:23
[10:58] maximouse End of /WHOIS list.
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[10:59] <maximouse> figured out who your hostile with yet?
[10:59] <therock> nah
[10:59] <therock> we're simple people
[10:59] <therock> we just hit stuff
[10:59] <maximouse> lol
...
Session Start: Tue Jul 03 19:20:42 2012
Session Ident: maximouse
[22:04] <therock> war time!
[22:04] <maximouse> it is?
[22:04] <therock> yeah
[22:04] <therock> we are ready
[22:04] <therock> you can push button now
[22:04] <maximouse> lol
[22:06] <maximouse> drop 11K NW please
[22:06] <therock> why?
[22:06] <maximouse> declare range:P
[22:06] <maximouse> new feature this age
[22:06] <therock> wtf
[22:06] <therock> you got yourselves hit out of nw range?
[22:06] <maximouse> you can declare 33% upwards and 25% downwards
[22:07] <maximouse> we were at 22% your size to begin with
[22:07] <therock> gayyyyyyyyyy

Maxi also said Hawk's a noob, so what does he know? ;) Those could've just been wave dates for all I know, he's my only leak from your kingdom :(

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And I only picked up on the "I'll give you two more kingdoms it didn't work for - Mercy vs Monument, when we had them just under 75% of our NW. Without our bank, the kingdoms were the same size. They wanted a war, we wanted a war, we both had to deal with things to make sure we could have the war we wanted." part since it's a matter where the system worked as intended regardless of what we think of it :S You had a bank, or rather still have, which inflates your kd nw and that gives you both advantages, disadvantages and... funny problems.

However, that last part can be addressed by returning to the former nw-range for the smaller part in the conflict, allowing them the "grace" to still declare even though the enemy kingdom is at most 200% their own kd nw size while retaining the protection the 75% limit downwards gives smaller kingdoms.

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Fair point, I did mention it in that context. However, in mentioning it there, I wasn't referring to top kingdoms being waved by smaller kingdoms (fairly obvious, since we waved you), but rather that you guys wanted to declare but you had to spend time hitting us down and losing armies that could've been used in war to hit in hostile. It's not like it was one or two armies, either - you lost half a wave on lining up NW range. That wasn't a case of a bigger kingdom trying to steal acres from a smaller kingdom or a smaller kingdom stealing acres from a bigger kingdom, but rather two kingdoms who were in very reasonable range of each other that wanted to war but had to deal with game mechanics to get the war going. I think that's a pretty solid example of the mechanics working against you.

Code:

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    June 21 of YR7    Philosoraptor (Monument) attempted to invade John Bonham (Mercy).
  June 21 of YR7    Bob Marley has sent an aid shipment to Wong Ka-kui.
  June 21 of YR7    Philosoraptor (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 321 acres of land.
  June 21 of YR7    Philosoraptor (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 147 acres of land.
  June 22 of YR7    Bob Marley has sent an aid shipment to Kurt Cobain.
  June 22 of YR7    Ian Curtis has sent an aid shipment to Kurt Cobain.
  June 22 of YR7    Internet Is For p0rn (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 219 acres of land.
  June 22 of YR7    LOL WUT Pear (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 237 acres of land.
  June 22 of YR7    LOL WUT Pear (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 88 acres of land.
  June 22 of YR7    Charlie bite me (Monument) invaded George Harrison (Mercy) and captured 387 acres of land.
  June 22 of YR7    An unknown province from Trap Card is hostile (Monument) invaded Michael Jackson (Mercy) and captured 286 acres of land.
  June 22 of YR7    An unknown province from Trap Card is hostile (Monument) invaded Michael Jackson (Mercy) and captured 140 acres of land.
  June 22 of YR7    Honey Bager Dont Care (Monument) invaded George Harrison (Mercy) and captured 248 acres of land.
  June 22 of YR7    All your base are belong to us (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 120 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    I Like Turtles (Monument) invaded Devo (Mercy) and captured 347 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    Trap Card is hostile (Monument) has declared WAR with our kingdom!
  June 23 of YR7    I Like Turtles (Monument) invaded Devo (Mercy) and captured 222 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    Socially awkward penguin (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 205 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    Angry German Kid (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 162 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    Socially awkward penguin (Monument) invaded Devo (Mercy) and captured 143 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    Chocolate Rain (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 156 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    Angry German Kid (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 142 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    Two Girls One Cup (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 125 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    Raptor Jesus (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 132 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    Two Girls One Cup (Monument) invaded Devo (Mercy) and captured 141 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    Raptor Jesus (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 155 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    Two Girls One Cup (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 108 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    Elvis has sent an aid shipment to Kurt Cobain.
  June 23 of YR7    Loituma girl (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 85 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    Suck My Balls Mr Garrison (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 92 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    All your base are belong to us (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 119 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    My Little Pony (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 82 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    Loituma girl (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 94 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    Loituma girl (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 79 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    My Little Pony (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 80 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    Internet Is For p0rn (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 82 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    Old spice guy (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 80 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    Chocolate Rain (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 67 acres of land.
  June 23 of YR7    Chocolate Rain (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 57 acres of land.

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Either your war strategy involved using 12 of the 34 hits made that our in hostile, or the mechanics forced you to do it to declare.

I'd agree with your last point only in the case where the bigger kingdom is the aggressor (ie, Mercy vs Monument - crap, I used it again), but not where the smaller kingdom is (ie, Rage vs FTF - new example!). The protection system should ensure that aggressive kingdoms that attack larger people can be fought in a fair fight (ie, war), but that aggressive kingdoms that come after smaller kingdoms can not force them into war (through maxing the meter) or steal a button (through chicanery/shenanigans).[/CODE]
I'd agree with your last point only in the case where the bigger kingdom is the aggressor (ie, Mercy vs Monument - crap, I used it again), but not where the smaller kingdom is (ie, Rage vs FTF - new example!). The protection system should ensure that aggressive kingdoms that attack larger people can be fought in a fair fight (ie, war), but that aggressive kingdoms that come after smaller kingdoms can not force them into war (through maxing the meter) or steal a button (through chicanery/shenanigans).

The stuff about banks and lower nwpa seems a bit of a red herring. The range restriction is not necessary and is abusive for kingdoms who are willing to be the aggressors and wave big kingdoms. It is truly as simple as that.

And honestly do you really want to move in a direction where razekilling is the norm? Do we really want it made so the crown is decided by who has the most friends they can convince to wave a bigger kingdom/who can stay out of fights?

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Originally Posted by TheRock

Fair point, I did mention it in that context. However, in mentioning it there, I wasn't referring to top kingdoms being waved by smaller kingdoms (fairly obvious, since we waved you), but rather that you guys wanted to declare but you had to spend time hitting us down and losing armies that could've been used in war to hit in hostile. It's not like it was one or two armies, either - you lost half a wave on lining up NW range. That wasn't a case of a bigger kingdom trying to steal acres from a smaller kingdom or a smaller kingdom stealing acres from a bigger kingdom, but rather two kingdoms who were in very reasonable range of each other that wanted to war but had to deal with game mechanics to get the war going. I think that's a pretty solid example of the mechanics working against you.

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Fair point.

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Originally Posted by TheRock

I'd agree with your last point only in the case where the bigger kingdom is the aggressor (ie, Mercy vs Monument - crap, I used it again), but not where the smaller kingdom is (ie, Rage vs FTF - new example!). The protection system should ensure that aggressive kingdoms that attack larger people can be fought in a fair fight (ie, war), but that aggressive kingdoms that come after smaller kingdoms can not force them into war (through maxing the meter) or steal a button (through chicanery/shenanigans).

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Thank god that someone finally could pick out the essence of the latter part of this thread (or at least the part about declaration ranges). So, just a wild idea (even though I should be sleeping now so it's probably too wild for the community and fairly unbalanced)...

The kingdom who first pushes the relation into hostile is deemed aggressor. The aggressor can only declare upon a kingdom within 75-133% of his or her nw.

The other kingdom is deemed defender. The defender can declare upon a kingdom within 50-200% of his or her nw.

However, once the meter is maxed the aggressor is granted a declaration range withing 75-200% so that a smaller kingdom gets the chance to push the button, if the larger kingdom decides to fight back.

Also, we tried to stay small this age and I noticed that the fake hostile tag is still in play everywhere. Hence it would be nice to have a notation, just like it states when you're at war with someone, which says that this kd is in a hostile with XX:XX.

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Originally Posted by Mal

The stuff about banks and lower nwpa seems a bit of a red herring. The range restriction is not necessary and is abusive for kingdoms who are willing to be the aggressors and wave big kingdoms. It is truly as simple as that.

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Sure, the stuff about banks might not have 100% to do with range restrictions but it does have something to do with KDRN. The low nwpa however is a factor since it is one of the sole reasons why those topfeeding hits are beneficial. If you move your provinces out of their provinces relative nw range then they won't do the topfeeding waves. However, you keep them within their range since it's beneficial for you in the long term. Hence you pay the price of topfeeding waves so that you still can have a shot at the crown.

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Originally Posted by Mal

And honestly do you really want to move in a direction where razekilling is the norm? Do we really want it made so the crown is decided by who has the most friends they can convince to wave a bigger kingdom/who can stay out of fights?

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Do I want RK to be a norm? Well, I prefer to use it on people who vultures into hostiles, once I get the chance to give them something back. That being said, I'm playing in a kd who doesn't play for the charts and I do know how it slows a top kd down. However, in my eyes RK is one of the few tools a huge kd can use against people who use extreme topfeeding, even though it comes at a hefty price :S

So buy what I just suggested above, where the "aggressor" gets a smaller declare range than the "defender"? That should solve the part where kds more than half your size waves upward for acres. If that is combined with a greater incentive to fight, like larger rewards for winning and a limited dicing above a certain size, then I bet the game would be more action packed :)

Let me also repost this, since it might be OP but making winning wars OP is suddenly a viable future for the game since the removal of FW...

Suggestion:
1.) Upon WW, the winning size gains 10% of the enemy kds total acreage, removing acres according to how large someone is. These acres is split into two pools where 50% lands on the provinces directly in even terms (hence a 100 acre pool gives every province 2 free acres). The other 50% is given to the monarch, to divide as he pleases (so that he can either help chained provinces or feed his cow or whatever). Since KDRN gains comes in play as well as the declaration range the game will sooner or later land in a situation where the largest provinces will have to battle each other if they want to win the land crown thus making war a must do even if you're aiming for the size crowns.
2.) Provinces below the kd average will be able to explore according to the old formula during postwar cf. This will make it easier for organised kds to regrow their chained provinces and return to fighting shape.
3.) Upon reaching a size above 2k acres and having diced at least 2k acres the gains on dicing throttles down towards 33% of the original gains. This should not have an impact on the smaller provinces but will make dicing a no-go if you're aiming at the very top. However, faeries who are unable to attack (more or less) should have the throttle decreased a bit so that they can keep up with their kd once the kd grows large enough. This will also make the explore pool more important, since that will be the only efficient way to grow unless you win wars and/or can attack.

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Originally Posted by TheRock

Maxi also said Hawk's a noob, so what does he know? ;) Those could've just been wave dates for all I know, he's my only leak from your kingdom :(

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I will ignore the rest of the debate, but this I HAVE to respond on.
What do I know? I played more ages with him in a KD then you...:P So I can speak out of experience.

But to be fair, 1 of the best guys around to share monarchy with. (raikon is doing a great job this age though, so he might push hawk from the 1st place....)

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Originally Posted by Maximouse

I will ignore the rest of the debate, but this I HAVE to respond on.
What do I know? I played more ages with him in a KD then you...:P So I can speak out of experience.

But to be fair, 1 of the best guys around to share monarchy with. (raikon is doing a great job this age though, so he might push hawk from the 1st place....)

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Great... now his head is going to be huge in chan.... thx maxi, thanks alot.

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Originally Posted by goodz

Look at the NWPA of the provinces in the start of each of those hostiles. It is dudes on 120 nwpa vs 180/190 In some cases the top kd offers a free wave when nap expires rather then rotating build even because the KD top feeding is only taking 5k acres. The problem is that the conflict is going to slow the dicing down / force them to train. I don't think it is a topfeed/bottomfeed mechanic as much as it is that dicing is ftw and stopping is ftl

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In the old days, when a kingdom topfeed waved like that, the other kingdom would just train up and declare. That's not possible anymore, so there's no incentive to train up. Why why waste another 3-4 days razing away the acres gained when that's counter-productive to your goals and doesn't give any fun or enjoyment to anyone?

The problem is not that it's going to slow the dicing down and force them to train, per se - it's that there's no recourse for gaining anymore, so there's no point. It's literally an unwinnable fight. At best, you can break even. That's pointless.

again, it is unwinable because you fall behind a general strategy of dicing culture in the SHORT term but perhaps not in the longer term. but it is still a choice you make that you take the consequences of. It is not that you CAN'T deal with it, it is that you DON'T WANT to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Sheister

again, it is unwinable because you fall behind a general strategy of dicing culture in the SHORT term but perhaps not in the longer term. but it is still a choice you make that you take the consequences of. It is not that you CAN'T deal with it, it is that you DON'T WANT to deal with it.

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How do you intend to catch up? Conflicts almost always cost acres for both kingdoms.

You need to start thinking in opportunity cost terms, Simians vs TFC was a prime example of this. Simians waved a kingdom that had barely any ability to fight back and they essentially broke even once you consider lost time dicing. That is absurd.

You are correct that we could deal with it, but you should stop arguing for us to. One way to deal with it is for us to band together and razekill mid-size kingdoms while they are warring. The solutions we have are not good for the game, thats the point.

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Originally Posted by TheRock

In the old days, when a kingdom topfeed waved like that, the other kingdom would just train up and declare. That's not possible anymore, so there's no incentive to train up. Why why waste another 3-4 days razing away the acres gained when that's counter-productive to your goals and doesn't give any fun or enjoyment to anyone?

The problem is not that it's going to slow the dicing down and force them to train, per se - it's that there's no recourse for gaining anymore, so there's no point. It's literally an unwinnable fight. At best, you can break even. That's pointless.

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Which is a direct result of the dicing + widespread NAP'ing currently in the top. If more kingdoms would threated the dicers with waves then dicing wouldn't be as profitable anylonger hence running more wars would be far more profitable.

But since we have to live with widespread NAP's then dicing will be the best option available today and then you'll have to look for either a change in the general game mechanics to improve the possible rewards from wars or live with the occasional topfeeding wave and hope that they will get spread evenly around the dicers.

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Originally Posted by Mordrek

Which is a direct result of the dicing + widespread NAP'ing currently in the top. If more kingdoms would threated the dicers with waves then dicing wouldn't be as profitable anylonger hence running more wars would be far more profitable.

But since we have to live with widespread NAP's then dicing will be the best option available today and then you'll have to look for either a change in the general game mechanics to improve the possible rewards from wars or live with the occasional topfeeding wave and hope that they will get spread evenly around the dicers.

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As I already stated the NAP's have nothing to do with ability to dice. We could dice in a semi-war build without naps. Hell we diced while in hostile with BiO.

Stop saying things that are blatantly false.

But simians had more fun doing it.........

mal, in my dream world, everyone grows up and just plays the game without worrying about optimizing dicing. The top KDs would all still be contending for a crown, they just would not need to worry about a war here and there because everyone would be taking at least some time to war and deal wiht whatever challenges like this happen. I know, I am an idealist. But I figure if enough stop doing it, sooner or later the only KD left dicing is going to say to themselves " its really boring dicing against no one........"

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Originally Posted by Sheister

But simians had more fun doing it.........

mal, in my dream world, everyone grows up and just plays the game without worrying about optimizing dicing. The top KDs would all still be contending for a crown, they just would not need to worry about a war here and there because everyone would be taking at least some time to war and deal wiht whatever challenges like this happen. I know, I am an idealist. But I figure if enough stop doing it, sooner or later the only KD left dicing is going to say to themselves " its really boring dicing against no one........"

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You need to make warring easier and viable as a growth mechanic for that to happen. If that happened we'd see a lot of fighting on top and kingdoms like yours/ghettocats would WANT to be in the top because thats where the best wars are.

Also "simians had fun" but it likely cost them having fun the next fight :P.

guys, RE: topfeeding waves

big kingdoms make bottomfeeding waves all the time - one or two 'free' waves in exchange for a CF.
small kingdoms make topfeeding waves with little profit in retalliation for big kingdoms.
i'm not seeing the issue - its tit for tat. use diplo just like others have to, or train up some more to prevent yourselves looking like easy pickings. that is all i can say for one or two waves.
beyond that, the meter maxing mechanic is the most simple and most practical tool for preventing pesky topfeeders, whereby a maxed meter removes the inability of the bigger kingdom to declare or makes it less profitable for a smaller kingdom to topfeed.
HOWEVER, bear in mind that this feature is just as manipulable as is the current relations meter.
remember sanc hitting into TFC daily, but never pushing the meter beyond normal relations?
a smaller kingdom dedicated to jackassery will be careful not to max out the meter, perhaps leaving 2 points or a few more under max to keep the hits profitable. don't pretend it won't happen, because it will. the same goes for any clear mechanic that creates an obvious point of no return in terms of hostility.
perhaps, instead, a percentage based meter reading is a better solution. this can work both ways, with topfeeding AND bottomfeeding. no trickery or manipulation, just a clear mechanic that cannot be circumvented.

how about something like this instead:
for every relative % difference between points on the hostile meter in hostile relations (ie. does not affect war or unfriendly), attacks lose an equal % in gains as of 4 ticks from the first attack (to allow for waves, not just in top kds but also mid-range ones that don't do it all in 1 tick).
so an unaswered wave you might get away with, but the next wave will have gains reduced by 25%.
if the wave is responded to equally, gains are not reduced. if there is a partial response, say, 10 attacks for 20 points (10% hostile), then gains will be reduced 15% for the initial aggressor in the next wave.

it may not be perfect (i havent really delved into details) but it is a solution that works but ways and reduces topfeeding and bottomfeeding gains while not affecting the current culture of waves for CF.

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Originally Posted by Mordrek

Which is a direct result of the dicing + widespread NAP'ing currently in the top. If more kingdoms would threated the dicers with waves then dicing wouldn't be as profitable anylonger hence running more wars would be far more profitable.

But since we have to live with widespread NAP's then dicing will be the best option available today and then you'll have to look for either a change in the general game mechanics to improve the possible rewards from wars or live with the occasional topfeeding wave and hope that they will get spread evenly around the dicers.

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Nearly all of the NAPs you see now came as the result of earlier fights. CFs are usually done after cow/killer hits or waves, not just two kingdoms being friendly.

As for why they CF until late age, here's some math!

Let's assume, for fun, that the conflict in question will take 5 days - 1 day hostile, 2 day war (min time!), 2 day postwar. 5 days = 120 hours.

Dicing Kingdom - Explores 480 acres per day, paradises 2500 acres per day. 2980 per day x 5 = 14,900.

A war where one side gains 5% acres would probably be a win for that side. 10% would be a decisive win. 25% would be a total farming.

Between two evenly-matched kingdoms, if both sides are very very good and playing well, for one side to want to beat the dicers for growth, they'd have to be at 298,000 acres each to start. 5% gains translates to a 14,900 gain, just matching the dicers.

10% gains from a war means they'd have to be 149,000 acres to start in order for 10% gains to surpass dicing gains.

At a total farming, 25% gains, the kingdoms only need to be about 60,000 acres to start.

This should explain clearly why kingdoms CF. Think of it like poker - if the stakes aren't high enough, it's not worth the players' time to play in the game, because there's nothing to win, so even the winners lose out. The only kingdoms anyone would want to wave between years 3-6 are the kingdoms they think they can really farm out. Otherwise, why would you do it instead of dicing? Taking 10% off a 75k kingdom is nice, but the other 75k kingdom gained double what you did. This is why you see long NAPs in place - kingdoms know that they need to raise the stakes before playing the war game, because otherwise, it's not worth their time and effort.

Note that this analysis ignores the second mover advantage and the negative impact on pumping and preparation. It also ignores negative impact on kingdoms who haven't finished their explore pool.

This is why top kingdoms say dicing is overpowered - for basically every kingdom in the game, dicing is better for growth than warring. The only time you'll see warring being better is when one side is getting farmed, and that rarely means good things, long-term, for the kingdom getting farmed.

Separation is a good thing, but war needs to be strengthened to the point that winning a war is significantly more profitable than dicing.

Which is why I suggested decreased gains in dices given that you diced at least 2500a or so and is above 2k acres, where the average dice might drop as far as to 33% of a regular dice. Suddenly your equation starts to make war profitable at 100k acres, right, which is also where the dicing should start being throttled.

Now, add a major bonus to the winners such as 10% of the losing sides land and the risk-reward calculation makes wars the way to go for the good kingdoms and the ones not fighting wars will be fed upon...

...you could also make this 10% split 50/50 between an even distribution on the winning kd's provinces and a pool for the monarch to distribute. That would make it even more worth for cows to fight wars, since that would be the way to secure the biggest prov on the server, while it could help the smaller chained provinces to get back on track.

However, to make the risk-reward calculation even better then let provinces beneath kd average explore at the old formula up to kd average. Then you'll get an easier rebound time as well as potentially shorter time between wars.

1) All attacks in war generate 10% new land (not taken from explore pool)
2) Dice takes 70% of its gains from explore pool. If no explore pool dice will be 30% as effective aka a 7 acre dice yields 2 acres. 6 acre dice and below = 1 acre.
3) Reduce KD relative NW gains in hostile. by a modifier of .75 at 15 meter points sliding to .00 at 90 meter points. (KD a has -30% gains due to KDNW when meter is at 52 they would only have a penalty of approximately 15%, when meter hits 90 the penalty would be totally gone.
4) If 2 KD's are out of declare range and both sides max meter they will both receive a button to force a CF for 1 week. If they are in declare range both KDs will receive a button to declare war with.



Dice being slowed when out of explore pool well still have KD's dicing but the decrease in acres would slow it down some, quite frankly war is never going to generate enough acres to make up for lost dicing if you can dice as fast as you do now.

War generating the land rather then taking from explore pool well result in pretty large acre gains for KD's who empty their pool as they can now come oow and dice much faster then those who have not been warring.

Changes to topfeed/bottomfeed are to account for less of a gap between non dicing and dicing KD's as you may see KD's top feeding more in an attempt to abuse the protection they receive by KDNW. Anyway I think could work somewhat. Random declare should be brought back as well but is not really related to what the changes listed are trying to fix. Which is dicing vs warring.

Goodz,

Perhaps also add +300% land into the winners explore pool as a bonus for winning a war.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sheister

Goodz,

Perhaps also add +300% land into the winners explore pool as a bonus for winning a war.

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That isn't even a coherent amount. At start of age 300% of 10k is 30k acres? The fact that your not losing land from explore pool during war should be enough land...

Edit:
If you just mean that explore pool grows at 300% the speed during the duration of the war I disagree with this as well. War is going to generate a ton of land if the +10% gains does not come from explore pool. Also KD's without explore pool are only dicing 600-700 acres a day so if your average hostile stops you dicing for 10 days thats only 6-7k acres you need to generate. If you win the war even in a close war you should come out with that much acres and some land in explore pool that you can quickly add on if you wish.

War would be by far the best method of growth the only problem is WDing at min time in a war setup like this would likely be overpowered. I would make the losing KD dump all explore pool gained during the war to the winning KD. Something like that might be nice.

300% lol

Goodz, I was thinking, that at that point most do not have a lot of explore pool to use and gaining that much land into their explore pools would be an incentive to war.

but I figure that most larger KDs, if dice is taking from explore pool, would not have more than 2000 acres or so at the start of a war right? (probably less). Then you figure they gain 20 acres/hr into pool so in min time war that is 20*48=960. So roughly 3K acres in the pool at the end of the war gives them 12K acres to explore and dice out. That is not, imho, an unbalanced amount12

**edit**
Also goodz, if they are only dicing 900 acres/day I need to revise my estimate of top KDs downward as it is easy for a faery T/M to dice 100-150 acres day without breaking a sweat. So you should figure running 12-15% guilds for reasonable dicing they should be able to do 50-100/province. That is at least 1250 to 2500/day dicing plus whatever gains they have in combat from smart farming (figure 100-200 acres/province per day which is probably a conservative estimate, on each of their attacker provinces). Asuming they have 20 attackers in the KD that is roughly 2-4K in land gains per day minimum. Because they run banks to aid them and so on, they ought to be able to sustain 250 acres growth/province/day from week 6/7 onward. Therefore, I would expect that 25*250 = 6250 being the base gain/day a war would need to provide them a pool boost to make up for lost dicing and provide a war environment where they should be able to gain at least 13K acres (which is doable in a war winning scenario). Therefore, I think what I proposed might well be what makes warring palatable if dicing comes from pool.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sheister

Goodz, I was thinking, that at that point most do not have a lot of explore pool to use and gaining that much land into their explore pools would be an incentive to war.

but I figure that most larger KDs, if dice is taking from explore pool, would not have more than 2000 acres or so at the start of a war right? (probably less). Then you figure they gain 20 acres/hr into pool so in min time war that is 20*48=960. So roughly 3K acres in the pool at the end of the war gives them 12K acres to explore and dice out. That is not, imho, an unbalanced amount12

**edit**
Also goodz, if they are only dicing 900 acres/day I need to revise my estimate of top KDs downward as it is easy for a faery T/M to dice 100-150 acres day without breaking a sweat. So you should figure running 12-15% guilds for reasonable dicing they should be able to do 50-100/province. That is at least 1250 to 2500/day dicing plus whatever gains they have in combat from smart farming (figure 100-200 acres/province per day which is probably a conservative estimate, on each of their attacker provinces). Asuming they have 20 attackers in the KD that is roughly 2-4K in land gains per day minimum. Because they run banks to aid them and so on, they ought to be able to sustain 250 acres growth/province/day from week 6/7 onward. Therefore, I would expect that 25*250 = 6250 being the base gain/day a war would need to provide them a pool boost to make up for lost dicing and provide a war environment where they should be able to gain at least 13K acres (which is doable in a war winning scenario). Therefore, I think what I proposed might well be what makes warring palatable if dicing comes from pool.

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Your thinking wrong unfortunately if your pool just grew by 300% when you win a war top KD's would probably start age with 20 provinces. War 2x without exploring to get 130k acres in pool. Then grow like crazy and invite their 5 players. Heck it would be mighty tempting if you could get 3 war wins in the first 2 weeks you would have 450k acre pool...

Further if war gains did not come from pool most KD's in a close war at say 100k acres are talking about 30k acres for a clear winner, 20k for a moderate winner and 15k for a closer win. Even an MP would probably net 10k acres each. Say your only double tapping your generating about 35 acres per attack, we will have 20 attackers making 10 attacks each (pretty low hits) we are generating 7k acres in a min time war per KD. This is enough profit to keep up with KD's who diced with -75% dice gains.

hmmmmmm I see your point now. I clearly lack the conspirator's mindset. Well bummer. In a world where people were not playing cheap that would be a nice war reward but oh well.

Eh? If you wanted pool acres as a war reward you could have it fixed based on time spent in war. Example: mintime war rewards 4k pool.

but would that be enough for rage to want to war at this point in the age Mal?

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Originally Posted by Sheister

but would that be enough for rage to want to war at this point in the age Mal?

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I thought it was well explained that warring becomes more beneficial over time. At 200k acres warring is beneficial if we take 7.5% of their acres, which is do-able. Warring early is what is brutal, we dominated fury and took 40% of their land and fell behind... That is ridiculous, and it happened due to fighting essentially OOP.

It is also why TFC was able to get so big, most top kingdoms were waiting for them to be 170kish acres to farm them out. Simians did it too early and not particularly efficiently which is why they barely broke even.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sheister

but would that be enough for rage to want to war at this point in the age Mal?

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I think if pool gains did not come from explore pool that would be enough for rage to want to war 50k acres ago :P. They are probably getting close to time to war although only target non abs in top is simians. So sanctuary/hoh/rage have to share them :)

If dicing takes part of it's land from pool then why not give the winners a %-age bonus based upon their current amount of acres or acres exchanged at war? That way fighting good and active kingdoms would be an incentive :)

I have updated these to reflect the changes for the new age.

I really, really encourage the developers to consider making changes that will allow some method other than whoring to crown.

I have updated these to reflect the changes for the current age. The majority of them remain just as relevant now as they were ages ago when first proposed.

Nothing really even changed for the upcoming round. Just minor useless race tweaks, and useless explore formula tweaks.