Meep, you asking why Panda didn't wave CR early, can't that go both ways? Why didn't CR wave Panda, BB, Pyro etc. Early? Were CR pre CF'd with them before age started?
Just asking out of curiosity.
Printable View
Meep, you asking why Panda didn't wave CR early, can't that go both ways? Why didn't CR wave Panda, BB, Pyro etc. Early? Were CR pre CF'd with them before age started?
Just asking out of curiosity.
I said FREE could have waved us at any time, so it's pretty stupid for mike^ to try and claim we dodged FREE since we haven't been CF'd with them at any point the entire age.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aranfein
Maybe read the post I was responding to.
Those halfers would be hurting....
So I've seen this posted a few times, but whats the idea behind drafting to a -ppa value? Is it simply to kill hostile dragons, or is it something else? It seems kind of dumb to draft that deep to me.
1. Conflicts in general are in the end won by those with raw power more so than mod.Quote:
So I've seen this posted a few times, but whats the idea behind drafting to a -ppa value? Is it simply to kill hostile dragons, or is it something else? It seems kind of dumb to draft that deep to me.
2. Land is finite in top wars, you simply try and get as much military on it as possible.
3. Peasants get FBed anyways, so are useless.
In the ghetto tier a 30K acre KD on 5M might have more potency than a 25K acre KD on 5M, simply because their mods will be higher etc, and you mostly agree war based on NW. In the top the 30K acre KD won't be 5M but 6M, which means they will have more military and will most likely win the conflict.
As to the crux of the argument:
I like that pandas went 4/4 to get there, I like fighting to win it. It seems if they did better diplo they coulda set CR up to be 2 weeks after one of those wins and then take the win (like vs us) and then use it to win age. But they seemed to always have CR a week after whatever war they had so then they could never fight em so always had to push back. Seemed like bad CF management on pandas front, but to be honest that's probably what the most common mistake is by the people more new to the top. It seems like if at any point pandas had their CR Ceasefire end 2 weeks after one of their planned wars that they won, they woulda been able to beat CR. They just always ended 1 week behind instead of 2, giving CR all the leverage.
At same time, CR has a good point too. At any point pandas coulda set it up to fight them but they didn't, so hard to blame CR for being 0/0. To be honest, when we razed down I thought we were just backing out and letting the two of them fight. We let the two of them decide our CF's as part of the deal. I was a bit surprised we ended up having to fight one of the two of em first. I thought the deal was we'd back out and let the two of em fight it out fairly early to decide the winner without our land being a factor.
Side note: Taking 10k+ acres off a 4 person kd is lame IMO. Can see why pandas would be mad. But then Zaup posted something where him and anri agreed not to both CF the weaker sides and just up and wave em instead....so hard to blame CR for up and waving people.
Doesn't change the fact that its rather silly a kd can be 180k acres with 0 wars. Rules need to change back to give the smaller kd some sort of leverage other than just agreeing to give land ever since the 150 auto-war cap gave the bigger kd all the leverage. Probably something like moving the meter cap to 300 or so.
I've often stated that smaller kingdoms need to consider the danger of bottom feeders as a constant and real threat. Generally the top feeder strat, which I'm only supporting in it's defensive prowess, isn't as potent vs a conventional war build. However, I've found on a personal note, that I don't need to be in a conventional build to succeed in my tier. In fact, even up near the top I'm fairly convinced the crappy hybrids I build would be better suited to the environment.
So my conclusion is this; a good top kingdom would likely circumvent a top feeder and possibly proxy the acres via small vulnerable kingdoms willing to feed acres to protect UBs. You just keep your eye on the ball. You have to make people think and outwork them. You have to pay attention to the pipelines.
In gaming it's fine to like and honor great players, but to compete you must hold them all accountable or suffer the consequences. Obviously that says a lot about my nonaggressive approach. What am I competing with? I like to make sure the best have to earn their keep if they come my way...Or, that I come out ahead. No, I'm not a kingdom player at heart but I do it because I'm a nice guy and believe in team.
No need to change mechanic IMHO. Players need to feel they are on even ground with anybody and have the right to defend what is theirs. It's the squirming UBs that usually cry the loudest. Poor bastards.
Remove meter cap but also remove decreased gains for the top. I find it silly that a prov in a smaller KD has 50% more gains retalling a hit from a bigger KD.Quote:
Doesn't change the fact that its rather silly a kd can be 180k acres with 0 wars. Rules need to change back to give the smaller kd some sort of leverage other than just agreeing to give land ever since the 150 auto-war cap gave the bigger kd all the leverage. Probably something like moving the meter cap to 300 or so.
Would be a good idea to introduce a standard practice in which any agreed CF cannot last longer than 1 week (I know, hard to police, but we can try no?). For those familiar with risk, if you play with 4 people and yellow is stacking in Australia then takes over Asia. What happens next? Exactly, the others gang up and rape that person. But now, imagine yellow having a CF with blue who is in Europe and red who is in Africa. So now only green who is on NA can hit him via alaska, and he can simply stack all his troops there while leaving his western lands on 1 troop. Many would find this "boring", yet we seem so fond of it in uto.
I have played games of Risk where there were CFs that could be broken with a noticeof a couple turns. Sometimes it can be MORE exciting, because you might be halfway through clearing out one player and then your CF partner gives notice and you have to worry about being over extended. Without CFs you just don't over extend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta
I don't understand what's so complicated about this. For many rounds now, very few kingdoms have actually wanted to war us. Like I'm not trying to brag or anything... it's just reality. Even when we did the war tier round and all of these kingdoms that talk big about how if a top kingdom came to the war tier they'd get their asses beat. They all ran! And I get it... I'm not saying that Panda has been dodging us... it's just their leaders owe it to their kingdom to make the play that they think is the winning play. In their minds they knew they would never have the bpa/gold advantage, so they could perhaps get a big land lead to offset it. But at the same time, it's pretty ****ing unfair to criticize how we're playing the cards that we're dealt. Take a ****ing look at the leaderboard. This isn't round 4. You have actual war tier kingdoms (people that purposely limit growth and/or get land dropped) that are in the top 10/20.
If you guys want to setup a war tournament next round, I'm all about that. Maybe we need to mix things up in utopia to make it enjoyable again?
As far as this war, it's still too soon to know what's going to happen. We have a pretty good control on the top, but as I said already, I really, really dislike playing against avian core kingdoms. It's damn near impossible to open on them without getting double waved. I'm interested to see how they're going to proceed. So far they've been playing exactly as I've been predicting that they would. I'm not certain it's correct, but it's what I imagined they thought that they needed to do.
Those counseling sessions are paying off, seriously, nice way to sum it up :D
Thanks. We've been practicing letting things go that I have no control over.
I don't know about all your other wars, but at least in our case you waved us being 10% bigger and +2 provs, then proceeded raze-killing us. We added 2 provs, but when we declared we had 4 under protection 2 of which only came OOP 2.5 days into the war. I believe after ~4-5 days the NW diff was about 5% when we pulled out. All fair game, but don't act as if you guys effortlessly rolled over all KDs that age.Quote:
Even when we did the war tier round and all of these kingdoms that talk big about how if a top kingdom came to the war tier they'd get their asses beat.
People have posted and argued for ages that "If you have provinces in range for us to gain off them, you're fair game to be hit"Quote:
Originally Posted by flogger
A 4 prov 30k acre KD with 2 provs in the top 20 in the world that does no diplo, doesn't respond to messages, and is just rotating between fort and exploring and then back to fort, is fair game to be hit.
--
And I still think the meter thing is not a solution. Ghettos and ghetto players don't want to waste their time fighting at max activity for days with literally nothing to gain. Even with more meter room, it still requires better activity than all but a few warring KDs have to actually hostile well against someone that much bigger than you.
Meep I know you meant FREE, but if you look at my post I'm asking a completely different question...
If CR can't find wars why didn't they war bb, panda, pyro, the u etc early age? Was it because you pre CF'd or was there another reason? (I'm asking course numerous CR players saying noone to fight).
On a different note just change the damn NW gains to Acre gains and all those issues will be removed.
Because early age makes it easy to whore. It would be stupid to jump into a war where you won't gain as much land and then need to play catch up with the people who stayed out of war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aranfein
I think you're getting confused. CR doesn't want wars. They want to crown if that path involved them getting 0 wars, then so be it.
Yea but they also say they can't help it people won't war them. If you going to be 25%+ bigger in your conflicts to war I can understand people rather not war if other kds are inrange that offer more opportunitity.
You can't both complain noone wants to war and at the same time jump way infront and expect people not to try and dodge. - ofc I know CR play to win it's a given and while I appreciate their strategy I prefer Pandas route better.
Many kingdoms are better than CR when it comes to the combined chart. Lol
True. 2 ages ago we finished above expendables in the comined chart :)Quote:
Many kingdoms are better than CR when it comes to the combined chart. Lol
They didn't make the cut last age at all :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta
Yea is true. You know what, I'm gonna be honest. 2 ages ago we were already guaranteed the WW crown. But I went on to do 2 more wars just to finish first on palem's charts. We always set as our goal to win warcrown but also finish #1-5 in honor and #1-10 in land.
You're so far past being jelly. You're straight up smuckers.Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticeLeague
Land chart is the ultimate benchmark for kd quality. Tho maybe it would be better that meta game values wars more and that warring early age should be more valuable than it is now, but this just shows how dedicated and patient CR is, sacrificing "fun" in the game to be able to dominate the age, but even fun for some is boredom for others.Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticeLeague
In any case, this is something for suggestions.
In past ages you could get away with going something fun that had more even scaling (the old hum/rogue or undead/tact) or could atleast package fast race/pers with really high scaling stuff(merchant + sage or good attacking whore + elf/something). This age, however, you just would never have any chance of keeping up with a hum/merch kd if you didn't yourself have a hum/merch kd. It isn't a fun pick imo, but people knew what they were deciding preage when they picked setups that would never have a chance at outwhoring or warring out of the gate. We didn't explore any acres on core and this was the first age that we reached whore cap like 3 full days before whore cap extension(which occurs 7-10 days oop). There was no chance for anyone to be anywhere near even footing the first 4 weeks without going the fairly boring hum/merch core. Like what is the best case scenario for the setup that pandas is running this age? I suspect it is something involving getting lots of wars and then growing cows off of post-war tax while somehow managing to get the faster setups to extend you. That seems like exactly what they got thisage, so I have no idea how they could have diplo'd something better.
Good point by Topsy. CR is willing to have a boring age to win, others do not want to make that sacrifice. If you can stand boredom in exchange for glory, you do deserve some respect as a competitor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aranfein
We're not complaining nobody wants to war us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aranfein
People are *****ing that we didn't war anybody and yet are first place having had tons of time to pump.
I'm responding by saying that at no point this age did anybody want to war us enough to wave us or not ask for a CF extension with us.
We don't care about getting wars, other people care about us getting wars.
It's doublespeak for people that repeatedly asked for CF extensions to complain about us not fighting anybody.
What is this, a tragedy of the commons? What mythical opponents were we supposed to have fought if all of our opponents wanted CFs? If we had fought people and won, wouldn't we be even further ahead than we were already?
I always thought that being a top province/in a top kingdom was anything but boring. I love logging in and not seeing 1800 spells/ops/attacks on my province.
That is assuming you didn't lose to FREE....................Quote:
Originally Posted by Meep
It's so funny because I get on break and see the mention "combined chart" is like hitting a beehive with a stick. Top kingdom stinger are out! Duck and run!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta
Yeah, this won't end well, I can tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by StratOcastle
I've beaten FREE twice with disorganized ghettos that didn't even use anything other than in-game tools.Quote:
Originally Posted by Che Guevara
I'm pretty sure a kingdom being led by people a lot better than me and full of players who are actually active and organized is up to the task.
Beating FREE is easy, beating FREE and not having them get butthurt and extend the war a week out of spite which they did both times I've beaten them, is not.
Regardless, FREE could have waved us at any point.
I think a good kingdom always finds a way to position themselves to win the age regardless of the amounts of wars they have or not. Even if a good kingdom looses a war at the beginning of the age they will be in position to having a chance to win. The problem is the lack of good kingdoms in the game. In AMA some of the ages we were tagged Polar Bears and were beating all of these warring kingdoms that claimed if they warred us they could win; we always found ourselves in the top 5.
Like I said a good kingdom will always have a chance to win the age, each kingdom does it in different fashions. Pandas is obviously a good kingdom or they wouldn't be in a good position, the same could be said for CR.
It was a joke, brah...FREE hasn't managed to win even half their wars this age...Quote:
Originally Posted by Meep
Meep, there were a few CR players in here, saying its not CRs fault noone wants to war.
Anyway it doesnt matter, CR plays it will and deserves the respect for playing to win and doing well, no matter which route they take, but personally and likely to the regret of many players they/I would like to see CR warring more as a no.1 KD.
I/people respect Panda for the way they have gathered acres in order to rival the KD people expect to win the age and they have done this by taking the route most would love to see CR taking.
If we had 4 wars this age I would have run out of sitting time. topsy had me come out of retirement as a 'temporary' fill saying I wont have to set alarms and playing wouldn't eat into my sleeping schedule. Up until this recent conflict with Panda's he was right. If we had 4 wars then topsy would have to find another player to play my prov which I think is the real reason we didn't have any wars. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aranfein
At the moment from what i see CR doesnt even have a king...but i would never play the game CR has been playing for past age...explore, bully, force cf for acres or land drop to win crown...that`s pathetic in my opinion. if you wanna play utopia play it like Panda did and i hope to see a good war on both sides but in the end Panda to be on top. The boring game of CR disgusts me...
Its like winning a tennis championship but all opponents abbandon or forfeit...boooooooooooring
No **** it's not their fault nobody wants to war?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aranfein
That doesn't mean CR has to seek wars.
It just means that the same people asking for CF extensions can't simultaneously ***** about us not warring as if it's our fault.
Count the number of times this age anybody would have even been anywhere near in range to war us and have even a remote chance of winning.
The closest anybody else would have come the entire age is when Pandas warred BB, and that would have been a worse chance than now.
Would people rather us get farm wars or something?
Here's the top 10 chart since the start of the age:Quote:
Originally Posted by portofelia
http://tf.umunk.net/#top10=1
You tell me which person we should have warred that didn't ask for and wasn't given a CF.
Because since 2 days into the age, there are only three kingdoms on the entire server that would even have been in declare range of us at any point.
-BB
-Divinity
-Pandas
None of them were interested in warring us at any point because they were better off warring each other.
I can assure you, we would have loved secure the age win 2 months ago if any of them had been willing to war us.
Meep, again (though its a great success for CR to have scooped you up :P), I would rather have seen CR war to be no.1 then sit most age just pumping and taking acres for CF deals, hell even if you waved for it rather then "deal" before strikes are even made, the fact that KDs run isnt CRs fault, but to deal and get easy acres without even lifting the sword is a bit meh.
People know they will get hit by bigger KDs, so waving a KD for their acres but stopping after first wave unless a KD has been obnoxious like other KDs, is a lot better then see you "farm" it all, you deserve your position afterall and yes it might be some *****ing and some retraining, its a far better way to "win" then sit and pump on 25% draft troughout the age.