But then what's the point of warring if you don't need it to get honour, and there is no crown to be gained either?
Printable View
But then what's the point of warring if you don't need it to get honour, and there is no crown to be gained either?
We aren't interested in players who think its ok to land drop and op into eowcf with no consequences. We are 100% in favour of players who uphold ethical values.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megafusion
In war, it's still easier to gain/take honor and land than oow.Quote:
Originally Posted by THX1912
Fair enough. Join me in a crusade to make this part of next age's changes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauper
Why is it possible to op into and eowcf then? Why not simply make it -100% thievery efficiency in and out of eowcf?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
Several reasons, all of which you can find in this forum if you search.Quote:
Originally Posted by THX1912
Or you could just humour me, save me some time, and write them down here.
by "we"Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
do you mean evil dragons or the mods?
So Bishop define land dropping and why it isn't ok. And what is ethical in your opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
The fact that they continually introduce mechanics to deter landdropping is a pretty big f'ing clue the devs don't like the concept. We need more people who want to compete, not people who want to drop down and smash nubs.
Someone needs to make a post on utopian etiquette and ethics, I think everyone here has their own idea of what's right and wrong.
That's the beauty of the game.. There are the rules set by the admin.. and then there are the beliefs of everyone else. There needs to be no rules of ethics and etiquette.Quote:
Originally Posted by SillyRabbit
2 ages ago we found ourselves up in the top 20 for NW mid-age, and was having a difficult time getting a war with any kds in our range. Most kds at that size are going for growth, not wars. So as a warring kd, we take measures to make sure we can find targets willing to war us. If that means we need to stay small, we will do it. We are still competing, just not for the land/NW crown with the 'top kds'Quote:
Originally Posted by DHaran
Then what about the suggesting I made? Or the one Zauper countered me with?Quote:
Originally Posted by DHaran
Quit assuming land dropping is all about ghetto bashing. Sheesh.Quote:
Originally Posted by DHaran
I do believe that is correct in the last part there.Quote:
Originally Posted by SillyRabbit
____________________________________
As for me, I do recall that when people were angry ad ghetto cats for stealing from larger kingdoms in hostile or otherwise (I forget the details but I am sure Korp can fill us in) that there was a push by BiO to war them and other kingdoms were called in to RK them in war because the cat's needed to be taught a lesson in ethics or some such.....
Now, when strippers and friends wish to teach an ethical lesson to ED, people are *****ing about the tactic because it does not agree with their ethic.
Look, its simple. If RK into war is acceptable as a teaching tool, then it is acceptable when competing ideologies use it to teach their lessons to each other....or something like that.
in other words, holy crap this thread has way too many pages for two kingdoms no one cares that much about.
Use search. My time is as important as yours is.Quote:
Originally Posted by THX1912
The playerbase already decided what landdropping entailed and why it was unethical, we simply added additional game mechanics to enforce what the playerbase demanded.Quote:
Originally Posted by SneakySeth
Ability and power allow you to define what is ethical. There isn't a kingdom in the game what could stand if the playerbase decided to punish them for what they deemed was unethical. Certain things, such as landdropping, have been deemed unethical for years. You can easily tell this by the game mechanics that deter it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SillyRabbit
Its acceptable if enough players deem it to be acceptable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheister
What's it about then? Its certainly not about warring kingdoms of equal skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by SneakySeth
edit: Goodz - game dev.
I do agree that they should be allowed to gang up and raze kill if they want.
The inability to explore for a reasonable price in eow makes razing in eow a bit over the top strong.
Land dropping has been hindered some by making it destroy honor but its still hugely favorably if you have a friend land drop you. Warring in the middle of the pack is where you want to be for honor, largely due to most targets = best odds of finding a ghetto to war.
I think ED might turn out to be the new Simians, just slightly better! (with the new simians i mean they attract the posters attention and people love/hate them)
The massive use of outside websites or tools such as Pimp, uTools, Stinger or angel suggest the player base also demands that. Should we expect the devs to add game mechanics to respond to that demand?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
Yes, you should.Quote:
Originally Posted by THX1912
Edit: I misunderstood Bishop.
Looking forward to seeing new tools added to the game.
JhAgain you are already assuming based on your set of ideals.Seriously.. Where is the fun in warring noobs? We derive much more satisfaction going against kds who can truly give us a good tough war. However these kds normally won't be all at the same acreage. What is wrong upsizing and downsizing due to such circumstances to find ourselves wars?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
So...land dropping is unethical...therefore, aid and dice are also. Considering that land dropping is used as to be in nw range with most KDs (land 'size' being not that important to all, as it seems to be for some...) and that dice and aid are used so that one gets in range with those that are bigger or to be bigger, all 3 things are unethical.
In order to be ethical, there should be a standard land and nw size for all.
The fact that a larg kd says to a small one that they should man-up and grow the rest of the 20% nw or land difference between them, while keeping up the sci-learn attacks, is not different from: a bully saying that he is taking a little kid's lunch money, untill the little one grows and becomes able to defend himself; a muscled man that keeps beating a thin person until that person grows some; one that rapes women.....until they man-up.
If we all should be competitive as one claims, then we should all have the same land and nw size, so that we can all fight each other from an equal point. As long as we allow some to grow the best they can, we should also allow others to be small (though being a bully or should I say a 'Man' seems to be considered as the ethical 'beacon'...).
One can not expect all others to copy his own acts/image! That is why there are so many ways in which one can develop in this game (some pick being a warring kd, some pick being the highest in NW or Land size).
Forcing everybody to grow to the standards set by the biggest is not ethical. Forcing the small/the unexperienced ones to grow as to satisfy the need of the bigger ones to be able to brag on how they smashed them is....I can't even think about how to call it!
I guess Hitler also tried to....man-up some....
The fact that you don't need to do it to find a war. What you do need to do is invest a small amount more effort or skill to prevent your target from farming you.Quote:
Originally Posted by SneakySeth
This is pretty poor logic. Land-dropping is used to remove land (and nw) from provinces/kingdoms, in order to make it possible for them to fight smaller (and weaker) kingdoms. Growing is the exact opposite of this -- it puts you closer to better kingdoms. Land-dropping is an artificial way of avoiding dealing with competition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reason
Why?Quote:
In order to be ethical, there should be a standard land and nw size for all.
And who, exactly, are you accusing of doing this? Or are you just telling us a rambling pointless story?Quote:
The fact that a larg kd says to a small one that they should man-up and grow the rest of the 20% nw or land difference between them, while keeping up the sci-learn attacks, is not different from: a bully saying that he is taking a little kid's lunch money, untill the little one grows and becomes able to defend himself; a muscled man that keeps beating a thin person until that person grows some; one that rapes women.....until they man-up.
When you fight, you gain things like land.Quote:
If we all should be competitive as one claims, then we should all have the same land and nw size, so that we can all fight each other from an equal point.
People are allowed to be small. There's nothing wrong with it. There is something wrong with removing what you've gained so you can fight a weaker kingdom.Quote:
As long as we allow some to grow the best they can, we should also allow others to be small (though being a bully or should I say a 'Man' seems to be considered as the ethical 'beacon'...).
No one is required to grow. We are saying that REMOVING land is not ethical.Quote:
One can not expect all others to copy his own acts/image! That is why there are so many ways in which one can develop in this game (some pick being a warring kd, some pick being the highest in NW or Land size).
Forcing everybody to grow to the standards set by the biggest is not ethical.
No one is forcing the small to grow. The issue is that the experienced ones are making themselves smaller so that they CAN fight the unexperienced ones, which makes for a bad learning experience for new players.Quote:
Forcing the small/the unexperienced ones to grow as to satisfy the need of the bigger ones to be able to brag on how they smashed them is....I can't even think about how to call it!
This is an interesting, insightful, and meaningful comment.Quote:
I guess Hitler also tried to....man-up some....
The fact that you landdrop isnt different from a bully that picks fights with little kids. Hes way out of their league but he still finds the need to bash these kids cause he cant hack it with the same sized people.Quote:
The fact that a larg kd says to a small one that they should man-up and grow the rest of the 20% nw or land difference between them, while keeping up the sci-learn attacks, is not different from: a bully saying that he is taking a little kid's lunch money, untill the little one grows and becomes able to defend himself; a muscled man that keeps beating a thin person until that person grows some; one that rapes women.....until they man-up.
What you fail to see is that those kingdoms that landdrop is the bullys why stay small? Are you afraid to grow? Its like Barcelona would enroll in the local division in a random town just so they could keep on steamrolling the opposition.Quote:
If we all should be competitive as one claims, then we should all have the same land and nw size, so that we can all fight each other from an equal point. As long as we allow some to grow the best they can, we should also allow others to be small (though being a bully or should I say a 'Man' seems to be considered as the ethical 'beacon'...).
But thats exactly what these kingdoms that landdrops does, they landdrop so they can war against lesser good kingdoms then title themselves as "good" warring kingdoms cause they bashed some ghettos.Quote:
Forcing everybody to grow to the standards set by the biggest is not ethical. Forcing the small/the unexperienced ones to grow as to satisfy the need of the bigger ones to be able to brag on how they smashed them is....I can't even think about how to call it!
"Ability and power allow you to define what is ethical."
Germans had the ability and the power to do what they did in WWs, does that mean that it was ethical what they did?
I guess the little countries that stood before them, were wrong.
Power that determines the etchical is a threat. And I thought that we were not to threat in here.
If a game is determined by power and ability, then no kid would play.
There are many corollaries to Godwin's law, some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself)[3] than others.[1] For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reason
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Rejoice! After 21 pages this is finally over! :P
@Reason
Your first comment makes 100% no sense at all. Why is aid and dice unethical? This game is about growing - whether you do it by exploring or warrring, you are growing in size that is the mechanics of the game. Land dropping is the opposite of what the game is about. You can be a "warring kingdom" but if you win, guess what your growing in size. Technically you should find more competitive wars the larger you get because other are winning wars as well.
The problem is when you win 3 wars and you feel the needs to downsize to war more kingdoms because "there is no one in the top to war". There is no tool you can use by yourself to downsize. There is the option to grow though, so use it. Grow in size and PM me, we will war you and i'm sure others will as well.
The game naturally sorts itself. The nubs at the bottom, the best at the top, mid level kingdoms fluctuating in between. Landdroppers stay below their natural level, whch is why they're looked down on. Whether people who play in landdropping kingdoms understand that is irrelevant. You're playing below your level, period.
Your misunderstanding makes you look ignorant. If everyone was the same size and nw prior to war then there would be no logical method for the better kingdoms to rise above. Shrinking back down after rising up to more competitive kingdoms is therefore unethical and looked down upon by the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reason
Stop with the nazi analogues, right now. Do not, ever, post anything similar in here again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reason
@Olaph, what you do not consider is that after the win, each kd takes a pump period. And that period is used by bigger kd's as to attack the newly grown while it is at its weakest moment.
When such things happen, you get learned for days for not wanting to war and one of your provs gets PKed.
Just because power imposes the ethical.
@THX, I guess the comparison with the bully in school did not disturb u much...
@Korp and Zauper, pls see the reply for Olpah. You forget that after growth, is exploited by the already grown.
@Zauper on rambling stories: pls read previous posts, u will find the reference, as I only used the words used by a 'knowledgeable' user (post #261 - user=Zauper)
"Also, lol@#6 on Persain's list above, since that's exactly what we did to you that made you so sad.
We made our intentions clear -- we wanted you to man up.
"
Are you denying your own writting?
@Ezzerland: size can be the same at the begining and after a war, call it a reset. The dif would be made in war, when everything can vary, according to the skill of the player.
Silverfox is correct (which he is in most of his post) that RK:ing provinces in weaker KDs will cause grudge, and that bullied KDs will pay back when they have a chance. Paying back in war is obviously not the most honorable deed, but in this case the means that a bullied KD will do when they see few other options. Similar to the "statement Razekills" made by ED (which seem surprisingly fine with many) , the payback RK was also a statement "Bullying has its price and a bully should never feel safe... not even in war". The fact that this not-so-honorbable-payback-RK will indeed be costly does not take away from this statement of people saying "NO" to being bullied.Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfox
The insinuation that there are more "idiots" in the two stated KDs than KDs in general, or perhaps in Silverfox own KD, is mere speculation since Silverfox knows little about this. From my experience, the two ppl from ED that I talked to were the most unfriendly, patronizing and insolent people I have talked to since I started this game around age 7 or 8 (I would be surprised if there were fewer idiots in his own KD than any of the two stated).
I guess the crunch is that there is a difference in that some KDs wants warring (which can actually be done in a decent manner) while others are interested in boosting their egos, which doesn't need to include any deceny at all.
@Bishop: history should be used for teaching, not forgot.
No, it's just a stupid and irrelevant comparison, so there's no reason getting into that crap here. Move on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reason
Without going in depth, raze has always been a destructive factor in the game on a bigger level than just "killing land" from one player.
All provinces start on the same land totals meaning there is a limited number of acres in the game, without new acres entering the game then it would be zero sum so for you to grow 100 acres everyone else has to lose 100 acres collectively.
This just leads to stagnation when the game reaches a point that players can't take land from others without losing land themselves and it just becomes a giant tug of war with only the very top who can bottom feed making any small gains. Even worse is that every acre razed is lost meaning that people are fighting over even less total acres.
So comes the reason for explore pools, daily 5 free acres, etc. as ways to replace land lost from razes and as a way to increase the total acres everyone is fighting for at a reasonable rate over the course of an age. It's also the reason that razes no-longer remove land in war and just kill buildings as raze killing with minimum gains was always a better (or only) way to disable a province which in turn encouraged KDs to lower the total acres in game.
When you have kingdoms who constantly shave off land all age then they are a destructive force against the game as they are not only looking to pick on weaker kingdoms, something which goes against the whole "we war anyone" trash they like to spew forth, but they lower the available acre pool for everyone.
Back before legal trading if you were hit intra KD 5 times then killed you lost your province, none of this simple "trade back" at the push of an invite, so you either had to script back a province or you had to force/persuade some random to give you their province when it landed in your KD. Now the devs have placed -20% honour on intra-KD attacks and you still get idiots coming up with justifications like "It's fine they just want you to chose between war wins and honour" while sadly their hands are tied to stop anyone asking a friend for a raze (unless it turned into fake wars where they would investigate and ban people for land dropping).
This is a war game, go and war Sanc or one of the other KDs who are constantly at the top? When was the last time a "war KD" came OOP with a growth strat and then started smashing the other top 5-10 KDs with waves? No, because you'd rather just come OOP and find some easy war to roll your face through.Quote:
Originally Posted by SneakySeth
You see, you try to paint the picture that you need to gain and lose acres to war all the good kingdoms, while the reality is you've probably never switched to a growth strat and tried to gain +20% your land in order to take on another KD or ever tried to take on the top kingdoms. All you want is a little excuse to make your TPA/WPA and sci better.
Everyone does start on equal footing, it's called protection (with the exception of people with less provs).Quote:
Originally Posted by Reason
If you chose not to keep up with bigger KDs then that is your choice, if you are incapable of keeping up with bigger KDs then that is your loss. This is a game, better players have an advantage over others. I guess by your logic I should be allowed to sit on 5k acres and cry about being hit by 10k acre provinces because I can't do a thing back to them, and I'd be justified to do so?
In this game size is power, if someone can raze you 4 times and you can't hit them back then they are stronger than you, this is a fact. If I have the activity to make 2 attacks per day then in an "ideal world" I could grown ~twice as fast as someone who can only do half my attacks, I have a clear advantage over them yet I can just sit there and stay small then destroy them via activity alone, there is nothing fair in keeping yourself small to beat KDs via activity rather than strategy.
Besides this your whole point is irrelevant to the thread, ED have been less than 10% larger than both KDs they've raze killed a province in and both KDs could have stopped it by going to war, there is no picking on smaller KDs here they're both war KDs who were in close range. You might also have missed the fact that our relative KD NW for wars is larger than both other KDs in question.
@DHaran: I was about to question cursing, pic, nick, but then I remembered why I quit this game for a few years, after playing it from almost the begining..... better to play 'strategy' games, where fun rules, not bullies.
Unfortunately, some things nether change.