Chasity OVERPOWERED

Not sure why you guys all think MV is so difficult or why Chas is imba. MV should be costly considering the potential of the spell to remove multiple negative effects in one shot, that's the chance you're paying for. Chastity is a waste of time and mana unless you spend time and mana on FB and other population removal. It's a good spell to use in conjunction with others, and relatively easy to remove. And I don't care if my points have been countered earlier in the thread, because my points are still right so I will automatically assume whatever counters were posted are just retarded. Sounds like a bunch of QQ to me.

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Originally Posted by Ethan

"OP is about benefit vs costs" - Luc, and others I think

What level? Does having to pick 1 of two races count as a cost? How much of a cost? Gnome used to have a built in cost because it was a fairly lame attacker, but you have to have some to be intel *****s - do you count that as a cost?

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Neither of the races that have the spell are nearly as bad as gnome was, which should be pretty obvious given that 40% of the server currently have access to it. I don't think that's a sign of significant incurred costs from race or personality choice.

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It sounds as though your argument is that there is a "right" choice about using chastity *if you can* (as in, if you can, use it). I'd counter the main cost is supposed to be offloaded into the choice of race that has access to it. I disagree with this method of balancing in general (in particular for large items like perfect intel or chastity), but some of it is necessary to give races their own flavor.

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It isn't on the level of for example MS, so it really isn't offloaded to a race choice. You don't have to make a major sacrifice to get access to chastity. Also, imo, chastity is no part of giving either race their own flavor.

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I'd also contend that the game benefits from greater strategic variety - hence the general good balance around NW gains, and sci curve works fairly well, and buildings are generally good. (If it takes a major in mathematics to get *approximations* of *some* building's relative strengths for *certain* provinces... I'd call that a pretty close call.) Whereas casting Fog, or MP, or Chastity, or PF if you can... is really just "duh". Even NS vs. prop vs. kidnap vs. steal has some interesting choices at times... but if you've got Fog, keep it up in war, and if you've got chastity, keep coverage in war, and always PF the chain target. Not a lot of interesting choices there.

I feel we can almost always rebalanced the races ok after fiddling with spells or other items like that - so get the other stuff, then (re)balance races as a last step.

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Not sure how you're contending what I said with that. Chastity doesn't add variety, because as you say, it's a no brainer to use it. If you want to stop someone's population from growing, you cast chastity on them. That's not variety or exciting in any way. If chastity was harder to get access too, or harder to cast, you would actually have to make a choice, and that's when it would start to justify it's own existance. In it's current form it adds nothing but annoyance to the game imo.

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Originally Posted by DHaran

Not sure why you guys all think MV is so difficult or why Chas is imba. MV should be costly considering the potential of the spell to remove multiple negative effects in one shot, that's the chance you're paying for. Chastity is a waste of time and mana unless you spend time and mana on FB and other population removal. It's a good spell to use in conjunction with others, and relatively easy to remove. And I don't care if my points have been countered earlier in the thread, because my points are still right so I will automatically assume whatever counters were posted are just retarded. Sounds like a bunch of QQ to me.

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Thanks for making it clear that you're only here to troll, makes the thread a faster read. Cause that is a troll post right? I mean, the combination of "I'm right so I don't care what you say" and the contradictory arguments screams troll at me.

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Originally Posted by DHaran

Not sure why you guys all think MV is so difficult or why Chas is imba. MV should be costly considering the potential of the spell to remove multiple negative effects in one shot, that's the chance you're paying for. Chastity is a waste of time and mana unless you spend time and mana on FB and other population removal. It's a good spell to use in conjunction with others, and relatively easy to remove. And I don't care if my points have been countered earlier in the thread, because my points are still right so I will automatically assume whatever counters were posted are just retarded. Sounds like a bunch of QQ to me.

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For many years I've seen you in this forum, regularly I listened to most of the advice you offered. I am disappointed in how you respond to this discussion. Not that it matters, you will simply say you don't care.

Yes MV is a great spell, it has the potential to remove lots of negative spells at one go if you succeed. But we don't need a lecture as to what MV can do, we are saying it is NOT an >>>>EFFECTIVE<<<< counter measure against chastity, be it cost, mana, success chance, whether you negate the right spell and you even need an outside help.

Go ahead and pit Chastity against FB, and then say fireball takes more peasant away than chastity does on birthrate. Surface argument, common in this thread. But thats not the only thing that makes chastity OP, its what follows AFTER. Chastity can easily cap any province that has any potential to grow from incoming lands, a duration spell that pauses birthrates also easily meant no draft, low economy, useless incoming lands that cannot populate or be efficient, diminishing army and most probably ineffective BE. ALL IN ONE SPELL. Not op?

Everybody that's here to make a point thinks they are right, but people who reads probably knows more than you do.

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Originally Posted by DjTeddySpin

These are the kind of posts that we all see in this thread. It provides absolutely zero explanation or statistics to prove anything. So far only Palem and a few others responded with any kind of detailed calculations or actually try to prove something.

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You don't need detailed explanation or stats to understand that chastity is basically the same thing as storms. lrn2play

Its a psuedo-peasant killing spell. Is it strong? Yes. Is the average duration too long? Yes. But is it OP? No. It's limited to T/M (who would rather be casting MS) and the garbage race. It is only really useful in conjunction with large FB runs and is not a stand-alone op.

I don't understand all the fuzz about this discussion. I feel we are at the point everybody gave his opinion about chastity being overpowered or not. Just relax and share good arguments, instead of giving irritated responses. Man, there is more tension in this topic then there was in my failed marriage :). My opinion is that chastity is not overpowered. I want to share my opinion explaining which kind of players chastity hurts to and to which players it doesnt. Also I d like to give my opinion if the effects of chastity would be gone if they spell didnt even exist.

pure attacker:
chastity can be a pain in the ass. In my opinion only when peasants are heavily reduced due to ops/attacks. They can not really do much about it because pure attackers lack the TPA to do effective kidnapping. A side effect of being a full attacker is that most likely your WPA is low. if a A/m or T/M can spare some mana and you catch a long chastity at the begin of it's duration it could be worth to MV it off, although on a high rune cost. More importantly is that heavy attackers do traditional marches during war. Every succesfull TM rewards a significant amount of peasants when underpopulated. So they still have ways to increase their PPA. Although I totally agree with the people opposing chastity as spell that it is a pain in the ass. But more then fireballing, MS, NS, KN, riots, greed, prop, PF, NM? I don't think so.

A/M:
your wpa is supposed to be high enough to prevent chastity spamming on your province from those random undeads. Only faeries and undead/mystics should be able to get it on you. the mana of a mystic is very valuable. if he/she is using(wasting) it on you to keep 24/7 chastity on you as A/M I wouldn't mind at all. There are far worse things a mystic's mana can do to your kingdom compared to keep CHA on A/M's.

A/T:
I play human/rogue this age. my wizards are one of the most awfull in the world. Last war I have been fireballed to 1-2 PPA and received non stop chastity cover. Kidnappings are the key for an A/T. Just for the fun of it I kidnapped the guy who kept me chastity covered and fireballed me. He ended up with less peasants then me. Just a few kidnappings are enough to make a full FB/CHA run useless. for 20% stealth you can kidnap back to at least 7-8 PPA. if he decides to waste his mana again on a fireball run / cha coverage you keep doing the same. if you can afford to KN its a very effective counter to peasant control.

T/M:
they dont have to worry about chastity at all. they are hard to peasant control with ops. Hard to cast chastity on and even if they get peasant controlled they can kidnap it back.

My conclusion:
Pure attackers are the most affected by chastity, still MV on them is relatively easy, especially the races with a magic penalty. With or without chastity, they are the players who always end up being peasant controlled. If chastity gets heavily nerved we are gonna see more elves overdoing the FB's in combination with storms to the point regeneration is gonna take days. This would result in the same effect people are complaining about now. A/M's are harder to peasant control due to their protection from fireballs, still KN/massacre followed by chastity can hurt them. Although to their protection against magic they are protected from 'spamming chast' from non a/m hybrids. Imo if still a spells comes trough the wasted mana to fails and the short duration make it worth it. finally both A/t's and T/M's have the perfect counter to chastity; kidnapping.

So Humanoize is it overpowered? "NO!" :)

Undead can also cast chastity and as long as they've got enough runes to endure the spamming of it, they can effectively use it as well.

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Originally Posted by Palem

Undead can also cast chastity and as long as they've got enough runes to endure the spamming of it, they can effectively use it as well.

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Seems like its a good buff to one of the worst races then.

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Originally Posted by DjTeddySpin

For many years I've seen you in this forum, regularly I listened to most of the advice you offered. I am disappointed in how you respond to this discussion. Not that it matters, you will simply say you don't care.

Yes MV is a great spell, it has the potential to remove lots of negative spells at one go if you succeed. But we don't need a lecture as to what MV can do, we are saying it is NOT an >>>>EFFECTIVE<<<< counter measure against chastity, be it cost, mana, success chance, whether you negate the right spell and you even need an outside help.

Go ahead and pit Chastity against FB, and then say fireball takes more peasant away than chastity does on birthrate. Surface argument, common in this thread. But thats not the only thing that makes chastity OP, its what follows AFTER. Chastity can easily cap any province that has any potential to grow from incoming lands, a duration spell that pauses birthrates also easily meant no draft, low economy, useless incoming lands that cannot populate or be efficient, diminishing army and most probably ineffective BE. ALL IN ONE SPELL. Not op?

Everybody that's here to make a point thinks they are right, but people who reads probably knows more than you do.

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How is MV not an effective counter? It can remove the spell altogether lol. Can't say the same for more damaging spells like FB, which cost less and is easier to cast btw. Everything you listed as after effects for Chastity also apply to Storms and FB, so it's a retarded argument. Yes ALL IN ONE SPELL, one spell than can easily be removed with MV, whereas you have no options to fight FB instant effects.

Such a huge pointless QQ thread.

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Originally Posted by DHaran

How is MV not an effective counter? It can remove the spell altogether lol. Can't say the same for more damaging spells like FB, which cost less and is easier to cast btw. Everything you listed as after effects for Chastity also apply to Storms and FB, so it's a retarded argument. Yes ALL IN ONE SPELL, one spell than can easily be removed with MV, whereas you have no options to fight FB instant effects.

Such a huge pointless QQ thread.

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Yea Storms stops population growth, yea you can cast a 12hour FB with 3%mana. Keep it up.

Storms even had diminished damage on low pop.

Considering the low success chance of MV, high cost, random chance of negating and needing a 3rd party help, it is obviously not an effective counter measure against a cheap spell with high success chance. <-- At least respond to this instead of asking the same question over and over like everyone else...

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Originally Posted by titanwraith

Seems like its a good buff to one of the worst races then.

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totally agree with that. I think it's balanced to let ud have it.

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Considering the low success chance of MV, high cost, random chance of negating and needing a 3rd party help, it is obviously not an effective counter measure against a cheap spell with high success chance. <-- At least respond to this instead of asking the same question over and over like everyone else...

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you keep saying low succes. I really wonder what role you play in your kingdom and what WPA you are running with that. people who get affected by chastity the most, will have the least problems to get it MV-ed off. And once its off, it's off. You are not likely to get another chastity for the duration it should have lasted on you. a few hours of free peasant regeneration is imo not an ineffective counter

<DHaran> Your wizards gather 4,422 runes and begin casting, and the spell succeeds. A magic vortex overcomes the province of xxx, negating 8 active spells (Builders Boon, Inspire Army, Minor Protection, Patriotism, Town Watch, Explosions, Pitfalls and Drought).

lol there is a reason MV is difficult and costly, and my success rate is hardly low.

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Originally Posted by Humanoize

you keep saying low succes. I really wonder what race you role you play in your kingdom and what WPA you are running with that. people who get affected by chastity the most, will have the least problems to get it MV-ed off.

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Under the set circumstances that you improvised, a low WPA race that is, even if you can find a moderate-to-high WPA mage that's online or has the mana/runes to help MV you, it does not guarantee success. I find it hypocritical how some of us can be arguing that MV is hard on one thread and over the other it's like a piece of cake to anyone. But why do I have to seek someone who has that much WPA to remove a lowly 'useless' spell as suggested by you?

Why do you think everything needs an immediate and effective counter? There is no immediate or effective counter for a lot of spells and ops, and more damaging ones at that, lol.

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Originally Posted by DHaran

<DHaran> Your wizards gather 4,422 runes and begin casting, and the spell succeeds. A magic vortex overcomes the province of xxx, negating 8 active spells (Builders Boon, Inspire Army, Minor Protection, Patriotism, Town Watch, Explosions, Pitfalls and Drought).

lol there is a reason MV is difficult and costly, and my success rate is hardly low.

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I just had a chained orc with 0.2WPA MVed me last war, one success story represents the spell under all circumstances? And if I read it right, you said it's difficult and costly. Why are you reinforcing my point that the trade off between MV and chastity isn't worth it?

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Originally Posted by DHaran

Why do you think everything needs an immediate and effective counter? There is no immediate or effective counter for a lot of spells and ops, and more damaging ones at that, lol.

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No I did not expect an immediate and effective counter, you are the one who suggested that Chastity is easily countered by MV, not me. I only said MV isn't an effective counter/suggestion against Chastity.

I don't remember the part where I said it wasn't worth it, care to show me? Ohhhh, right.... I didn't say that did I?

Tell me, if you had a choice between having on your province Chastity for 6 hours, or MS for 12, which would you choose? If you say MS, then I will just acknowledge you are a nub and move on lol.