A number of mechanics suggestions

dorje - just war somebody. if you catch them with their pants down (which you cerntainly could if you didn't put a 48 hour notice clause into every NAP) you would reap tens of thousands of acres in a few days, with reduced risk of retal if you catch someone else dicing.
i think its the notice clauses that are causing much of this problem. people at the top have the opportunity to change strats before they get into a conflict (entirely due to player agreements, not mechanics) so dicing works for them while there are no threats.
if you remove that threat buffer, you remove the appeal of constantly being in a dice build. not a mechanic issue. entirely a player issue.

Rsjabba, they've been doing it for so long they don't even see its oddity anymore.
It's like the invisibility of galleys for native indians story vice versa.

I think, and I may be wrong, that the problem is that the majority of the server feel as though the Top have essentially created for themselves an environment in which Dice is OP (well probably more they begrudge an environment from which they feel excluded but hey) with the excessive amount of diplomacy / napping and notifications that they have imposed on succeeding at that level. And so complaints in relation to that are largely viewed with derision.

If, for the sake of argument (and excluding the fact that they may be lacking the necessary skill), a mid-low level KD suddenly decides to use a Dice Build they do so at great risk because as soon as they get caught in that build they’ll start to get a bunch of waves from other KDs and have limited capacity to retal and hence end up losing a bunch of their acres. A similar situation exists if such a KD decides to try and pump sci using a very focussed build, with no war buildings, reduced drafts and such like they become very easy targets for those around them.

Dice, therefore, seems only contextually OP in those situations where you are free from the risk of being caught off guard and hence only OP at the ‘Top’ where NAPs/CFs and such like mean you get at least 48hrs notice before you’re going to be hit. And hence why people don’t feel dice is broken for the majority, only for those where the external factors they impose on the game have made that the case.

I guess the question becomes, and this is aimed at representatives of the top, if you did not have the comfort of NAPs/CFs with notice periods and hence could be hit at any time would you sit in Dice builds?

If the answer is an honest yes then Dice is OP.

If the answer is no then it’s the external constructs to the game you’ve made with each other that have caused a problem.

and it clearly is no, or else they would not need to radically rebuild every time they think they are going to have a conflict.

I don't have time for a detailed reply but the answer is yes, just not as efficiently. Not having deals might prevent us using rushed/extreme science most of the age, but it would not radically alter how much we grew.

This is a major area of confusion so when I am at a computer I will explain it from my perspective.

Thank you, that would be most appreciated.

As a stupid suggestion, I'm sure it will be stupid as I haven't had chance to fully think it through, but could you not just start recording the amount of acres gained through Dice on peoples Summary pages and then limit the amount of Dice (and possibly Explore) in relation to the % of total land gained (i.e. Dice + Explore + Combat)?

I know you wouldn't want to totally stop Dice / Explore at any point to allow some contrinuing growth but presumably there'd be some level at which you could cap explore / dice per month in relation to the % of land acquired by these roots compared to combat such that it actually encouraged warring as a way to get land. And it would be a double benefit as you'd have the chance of coming out of the war with land and then also increasing the amount you could explore / dice after the war due to all the acres 'gained' in combat you'll have added from the war...

I'm sure there are hideous ramifications, like increased FW policing needed and Avian getting an inadvertant boost because reduced with -AT they can hit more often for more acres and then ambush with -AT gets slightly out of whack. But for my own education at least it would be useful to see the logic behind what is good / bad with it as a possible solution.

***Edit - oh and I guess it would have to slide in over the course of an age starting yr 2 or something (to allow for early growth period) or slide in linked to total amount of acres in the game compared to number of provs (so it kind of represented the running out of space over the course of an age)

no... changes to dice are not needed. it is not OP. it is the operators in top tier kingdoms that run strats and diplomacy purely designed for uninhibited growth that create their own problems. that is why the only people asking for this change or supporting it are the people centering their entire utopia experience on it.
as said earlier, drop your 48 hour notice clauses, grow some cojones and wave your other giant-sized fellows. the only reason you can all sit up at the top, dicing away, is because none of you attack each other unless you know you can win or won't lose much. diplomacy is the stumbling block here and that has NOTHING to do with the game mechanics.
this is my first age in the top 10 and I can honestly say, dice is not an issue for the bottom or the middle, where people aim to get to a certain size and stick to it, and there are many, many predators around just waiting to take a bite when you look juicy. there are no termed NAPs, they are just ended when convenient or when you need more room for more NAPs. there are double and even triple hostiles. there are back-door tactics of getting other kingdoms to hit a waving kingdom. there is no problem with dice being OP.

if your retort is 'then why do top kingdoms make it to the top when we all start at the same size?' ---> because you aim for a dice build from day 1. just don't do it and it won't become a problem for you later in the age. and don't make stupid year 6 + 48hr NAPs.

Other games like Utopia use binding NAP agreements enforced by game mechanics, and the result has almost universally been stagnation and a boring game where people delay aggressive actions fay beyond what is reasonable.
In utopia there are no binding agreements by the game's programming, but among the top breaking them is basically a death sentence due to mutual agreement. Rest of the server has to expect being waved at pretty much any time, and if they're lucky they don't get double-hostiled.

I think a major issue is that many kingdoms artificially stunt their growth early on, when the optimal strategy for all kingdoms early on is growth - even those that can't hold on to their acres against skds. Yet this age, I wound up in a top 25 kingdom during the first week of the age simply by virtue of having 25 provinces, even though most of my kingdom deliberately avoided growing. That says a lot about the mentality that's plaguing the game, when most of the players go against their own interest just to stay out of the range of the top.

Dice is powerful, but it doesn't matter - top kingdoms are always going to have more to lose going to war than they have to gain, and will almost always make cf terms to delay any possibility of disruption for as long as possible.

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Originally Posted by rsjabba

dorje - just war somebody. if you catch them with their pants down (which you cerntainly could if you didn't put a 48 hour notice clause into every NAP) you would reap tens of thousands of acres in a few days, with reduced risk of retal if you catch someone else dicing.
i think its the notice clauses that are causing much of this problem. people at the top have the opportunity to change strats before they get into a conflict (entirely due to player agreements, not mechanics) so dicing works for them while there are no threats.
if you remove that threat buffer, you remove the appeal of constantly being in a dice build. not a mechanic issue. entirely a player issue.

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Just FYI - great suggestion. Sanctuary did that this age, just like they do every age. They waved multiple kingdoms, who gave them the wave for free, in return for the deals. The "Tens of Thousands" number must be exaggerated.

Notice clauses were done by top kingdoms to allow for proper pumping. It's common knowledge that you can't pump properly if you don't have your deals in place. By leaving notice on the end of deals, kingdoms can remain in pump builds and properly prepare with some security instead of being stuck forced to fight since, as we've discussed previously, fighting slows growth between prepared kingdoms, and no good kingdom gets caught unprepared at the top mid to late age.

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Originally Posted by Scavenger

Rsjabba, they've been doing it for so long they don't even see its oddity anymore.
It's like the invisibility of galleys for native indians story vice versa.

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No, we've been doing it so long that we know how it all works out. You say wave people like every top kingdom hasn't waved a bunch of other kingdoms this age :) You see the CFs put in place AFTER waves and fights and recommend that kingdoms wave more? I think you missed all the fighting that leads to the CFs.

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Originally Posted by AlphaWaveCascade

I think, and I may be wrong, that the problem is that the majority of the server feel as though the Top have essentially created for themselves an environment in which Dice is OP (well probably more they begrudge an environment from which they feel excluded but hey) with the excessive amount of diplomacy / napping and notifications that they have imposed on succeeding at that level. And so complaints in relation to that are largely viewed with derision.

If, for the sake of argument (and excluding the fact that they may be lacking the necessary skill), a mid-low level KD suddenly decides to use a Dice Build they do so at great risk because as soon as they get caught in that build they’ll start to get a bunch of waves from other KDs and have limited capacity to retal and hence end up losing a bunch of their acres. A similar situation exists if such a KD decides to try and pump sci using a very focussed build, with no war buildings, reduced drafts and such like they become very easy targets for those around them.

Dice, therefore, seems only contextually OP in those situations where you are free from the risk of being caught off guard and hence only OP at the ‘Top’ where NAPs/CFs and such like mean you get at least 48hrs notice before you’re going to be hit. And hence why people don’t feel dice is broken for the majority, only for those where the external factors they impose on the game have made that the case.

I guess the question becomes, and this is aimed at representatives of the top, if you did not have the comfort of NAPs/CFs with notice periods and hence could be hit at any time would you sit in Dice builds?

If the answer is an honest yes then Dice is OP.

If the answer is no then it’s the external constructs to the game you’ve made with each other that have caused a problem.

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"The Top" didn't create this environment, the developers did. The top can only be blamed for recognizing the strength of dicing as a strategy and tailoring their play to use it most effectively.

"The Top" doesn't have an exclusive license on dicing, only the value of experience. You've seen a number of kingdoms over the past few ages learn why top kingdoms do what they do when their Cows or Dicing Setups got smacked around by experienced players. Every age, new ghetto cows or cowing kingdoms lose their cows in fights, while new dicing kingdoms farm out acres to the rest of the top kingdoms.

You mention pumping sciences - top kingdoms put up the CFs BECAUSE pumping sciences is so powerful, and to do so most effectively, they need to run lower draft rates and focused builds. Part of the strategy for top kingdoms is getting the CFs needed to pump science so they can fight each other late age. Kingdoms without sciences get farmed by those that have them.

Dice is always OP now though, since the alternative for non-conflict land gaining (exploring) became more expensive.

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Originally Posted by nooblet

Dice is powerful, but it doesn't matter - top kingdoms are always going to have more to lose going to war than they have to gain, and will almost always make cf terms to delay any possibility of disruption for as long as possible.

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To add:

It generally doesn't even matter if you win or lose your war - you will almost always fall behind kingdoms that AREN'T warring.

Let's say you go hostile for 2 days, war for 2 days and only take half the time available in postwar, 2 days. That's 6 days of fighting. 25 provinces dice roughly 100 acres per day - 2500 per day x 6 = 15k acres. 500 pool acres per day makes our total 18k acres.

JUST TO BREAK EVEN, you'd need to gain 15k acres in war. This ignores any possible pool you might lose that would have been explored. At 150k acres, you'd need to farm 10% of another kingdom's acres to get ahead - possible but unlikely. At 90k acres, you need nearly 17% farming - that's really, really hard, and would need the other side to make serious mistakes to get to. This is a big reason why you see kingdoms delay fighting as long as they can. They recognize that the longer you wait to gamble with acres, the more that's in play. Maybe you win, maybe you don't, but fighting at 100k acres is almost a guaranteed loss, while a fight at 200k acres is possible to come out ahead.

After that, you need to look at setups and preparedness. Kingdoms stack gold. It's the most effective way to pump (if you disagree, you are wrong). If Kingdom A and Kingdom B war, Kingdom C can go ahead and fight either kingdom after their war, knowing they'll be more prepared - they had 6 days to stack gold, while Kingdoms A and B spent theirs pumping. This is especially risky when cows (which we've already established are the most efficient ways to use the explore pool) are involved - getting your cow farmed is bad. Next, consider setups. What's the most effective thing to do in war? Chain. Who do you target? Important provinces, with high offense or good TPA/WPA. If you go to war, your best provinces become your worst provinces, because they get chained down (I'm sure someone will waste their time telling me "good provinces can recover!!!". Save your time. It's impossible to grow back from 2k acres to 8k acres without using the explore pool, which your cow needs to keep up with other cows.) and you lose setup advantages. Kingdoms A and B will see their Faeries hit down, their Rogues hit down, whatever. Kingdom C has their setup intact. Another huge advantage.

This is why you don't see kingdoms trying to war or win wars. The way war is set up now gives a HUGE second mover advantage and offers almost no way for the fighting kingdoms to keep up with the kingdoms that aren't fighting.

Except now you are saying you are not using dicing effectively as it is allowing the overly powerful and abusive small provinces to abuse the larger more pumped provinces who are not ready....because they have CFs in place....so they are weaker and unready.....

nope you all created this mess.

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Originally Posted by rsjabba

no... changes to dice are not needed. it is not OP. it is the operators in top tier kingdoms that run strats and diplomacy purely designed for uninhibited growth that create their own problems. that is why the only people asking for this change or supporting it are the people centering their entire utopia experience on it.
if your retort is 'then why do top kingdoms make it to the top when we all start at the same size?' ---> because you aim for a dice build from day 1. just don't do it and it won't become a problem for you later in the age. and don't make stupid year 6 + 48hr NAPs.

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"Dice isn't overpowered, only the kingdoms that use it the most and try to grow think it's overpowered for growing."

...I'm not sure who you're trying to support with that one...

I only know one kingdom that ran dice build from day 1, and they've gotten tagged all age. All top kingdoms run attackers early. You aim for a dice build when it's safe and when there are no more targets to attack. That's basically how it goes - Farm out the server, fight each other, CF and dice to build separation.

you can also sci-pump with war now. 100bpa on the median province is fantastic... and if you stick at one size and just duke it out like everyone else, again, dicing isn't relevant. it becomes counterproductive to grow to the top in a WAR GAME because in this size doesn't necessarily help you get wars or war wins, and getting too big leaves you with few targets that are also gigantic and reluctant to war for risk of losing everything.
getting a land or NW crown by doing nothing but dicing and avoiding war isn't an achievement to be proud of. if you manage to get one of those crowns with say 7+ serious wars that aren't all mid to late age, so you achieved through conquest and great teamwork - thats impressive.

but if you in the top 10 genuinely want to play diplomacy games and do nothing but dice, go right ahead. just don't request changes in the mechanics that work for everyone else because you've pigeonholed yourselves into a single growth paradigm