Should Proteus pay KuhaN?

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Originally Posted by csarmi

Money is serious business. Next time you wanna bet, find a 3rd party that you both trust to hold the money. Simple as that.

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I dont understand how you fail to miss this, but a third party was proposed and accepted by both sides. Dont you even read the thread or what is that makes you miss that fact over and over again?

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Originally Posted by Evillone

Phoenix, didn't bother to read your whole post but a gentlemens wager can just be for bragging rights or a bet of honor/prestige. That definition is correct but it can also be understood to mean that the bet is on your honor. In other words its assuming both people are infact gentleman so they will pay the bet to not dishonor themselves. This is common at places like golf courses where many people might not be carrying around thousands of dollars or have a ATM readily available so being able to put the cash in "escrow" is literally impossible. It's the exact same thing as a gentlemens agreement, some type of agreement made on a hand shake not a contract. The meaning is essentially that the person is putting up their name as collateral, if you welch your name is not worth a damn. Actually I know people who have been kicked out of private golf clubs for stuff like this because they are considered gentlemens clubs and if you prove you are not a gentleman then they don't want ya.

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Yes these bets are sealed with a handshake. Please point me to where this "handshake" occurred?

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Originally Posted by Korp

So if ASF is next to impossible to get ahold of why would Proteus suggest him to begin with? That seems odd that Proteus if serious with the bet would suggest someone that is impossible to contact. Like he was trying to escape the bet if someone actually betted against him.



So, he asked and provided for a third party why should KuHan then refuse Proteus and go find another third party?

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He could have made that comment off-the-cuff, thinking ASF would be available to mediate. I find it odd that no one, not even observers in the thread offered to mediate the exchange, yet come here to defend something that was never confirmed.

Re-read what KuhaN posted. He tried to contact ASF and was not able to. At that point if he wanted the bet to be taken serious and was serious about an exchange he would have found another third party, or even posted it in this forum long before end of war or a point where MA was in a clear position of winning. Where and when did he post it in this thread during the first day or so of the war?

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Originally Posted by KuhaN

Then why would Proteus even recommend ASF to begin with? You do know the order of events right? Proteus was calling out people to accept a $100 bet on IRC and in forums. I accepted and asked how to make sure there was no foulplay. So he suggested ASF, and I accepted. Why would your monarch suggest someone in his kd to hold money when that person is being sitted? Also, afaik ASF has been active in these forums, i've even seen him reading these threads, he just ignores people when he wishes.

I talked to Proteus over mobile, if the convo was longer i probably wouldve copied it. Didn't think it'd matter over 3 lines of messaging, with Proteus just saying yes and then going afk lol.

You're just defending your friend here, and you have no idea what's going on. I don't even care that much about the money, I just find it funny that you're saying i wasn't serious about it. Maybe you should ask persain and elit for logs to see if i was serious or not.

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See above for why he might have suggested ASF. If like you said you suspected foul play to begin with then why expect his KD mate to honor it anymore than Proteus himself? That seems extremely stupid to me and a very poor argument to say the least. After it was clear ASF was unreachable what other steps did you take to ensure the bet? I never said ASf was being sat, I said it possible to not have contact with a KD-mate for 48 hrs. I honeslty have no idea if he has been around or not as I havent seen or spoke to him since near beginning of Age, hell I usually dont even see Proteus unless he is posting on forums. We have busy lives and dont sit online all dy, only when needed.

Im not defending Proteus I am simply statung facts and commonly known information.

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Originally Posted by Evillone

I have a feeling that Phoenix recently spent some time at a casino playing the dollar blackjack table, won enough cash to buy a whopper junior and now considers himself a gambling expert. Just a hint most real serious gamblers do very little of their gambling in places like casinos or other legal venues and they typically operate on a much larger "honor" system. This whole situation is much closer to the back room poker game than it is a casino table so I would toss out everything u think u know about gambling, stop posting and just try and learn something about a culture you obviously know nothing about

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Seeing as you know next to nothing about me I would get your foot out of your mouth now. I have no idea where you game, who you gamble with, or what types of gambling you do. But it is RARELY based on an "honor" system when it is done in illegal venues. Go wager shooting dice, at underground fights, etc and try to make a bet without giving someone money. Even when friendly informal gambling like sports pools, poker, etc is done you "buy in" and put you money up before the gambling is done. Just the fact that you make idiotic comments like "most real serious gamblers do very little of their gambling in places like casinos or other legal venues", shows you have no remote idea wtf your talking about as any person who gambles as anything more than a novice knows the opposite.

I love you compare it to a "back room" poker game then avoid fact that you "buy in" in these games before you play, or at very least put your money on the table and throw it in as needed. Yeah I am gonna sit down and let you lose $5k to me and "trust" your going to run to the ATM/Bank and return with my money, if that is even possible based on time of day, etc. Get real n00b.

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Originally Posted by PhoenixScorpion

Yes these bets are sealed with a handshake. Please point me to where this "handshake" occurred?




He could have made that comment off-the-cuff, thinking ASF would be available to mediate. I find it odd that no one, not even observers in the thread offered to mediate the exchange, yet come here to defend something that was never confirmed.

Re-read what KuhaN posted. He tried to contact ASF and was not able to. At that point if he wanted the bet to be taken serious and was serious about an exchange he would have found another third party, or even posted it in this forum long before end of war or a point where MA was in a clear position of winning. Where and when did he post it in this thread during the first day or so of the war?



See above for why he might have suggested ASF. If like you said you suspected foul play to begin with then why expect his KD mate to honor it anymore than Proteus himself? That seems extremely stupid to me and a very poor argument to say the least. After it was clear ASF was unreachable what other steps did you take to ensure the bet? I never said ASf was being sat, I said it possible to not have contact with a KD-mate for 48 hrs. I honeslty have no idea if he has been around or not as I havent seen or spoke to him since near beginning of Age, hell I usually dont even see Proteus unless he is posting on forums. We have busy lives and dont sit online all dy, only when needed.

Im not defending Proteus I am simply statung facts and commonly known information.



Seeing as you know next to nothing about me I would get your foot out of your mouth now. I have no idea where you game, who you gamble with, or what types of gambling you do. But it is RARELY based on an "honor" system when it is done in illegal venues. Go wager shooting dice, at underground fights, etc and try to make a bet without giving someone money. Even when friendly informal gambling like sports pools, poker, etc is done you "buy in" and put you money up before the gambling is done. Just the fact that you make idiotic comments like "most real serious gamblers do very little of their gambling in places like casinos or other legal venues", shows you have no remote idea wtf your talking about as any person who gambles as anything more than a novice knows the opposite.

I love you compare it to a "back room" poker game then avoid fact that you "buy in" in these games before you play, or at very least put your money on the table and throw it in as needed. Yeah I am gonna sit down and let you lose $5k to me and "trust" your going to run to the ATM/Bank and return with my money, if that is even possible based on time of day, etc. Get real n00b.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5epuPMf-7Y

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Originally Posted by PhoenixScorpion

flogger, as much as I have respect and love for you , what alternate universe do you live in where people let you bet without placing money first? Anyone who has actually gambled for MONEY, and not just been messing about with friends having fun knows this is the way gambling and a bet works. To claim otherwise is folly and childish. You either put up the money or shut up, bets are not made and real until money is out and on the table. Until then is nothing more than people running their mouths. This is age old in gambling precisely because of these types of disputes and disagreements, but pretty common knowledge to those who actually make wagers with other real gamblers.

As far as the stooges here trying to refer to a gentleman's wager, perhaps you should actually know what your talking about before you go jumping on the bandwagon being an internet troll.



Gentleman's bets are not made with MONEY, they are simply wagers based on prestige and honor. Both of which are sorely lacking from a majority of the trolls here.

Now had Proteus made a wager based on some act of humiliating himself, lets say agreeing to delete his province, go VM for rest of age, or ,posting something, etc that was non-monetary then KuhaN and most of the trolls here would be justified in their position. Since this is not the case and obviously the majority here have never gambled for real with people they do not know and only as informal exchanges with their friends, then stop crying and learn how to place a bet like a man instead of a little boy. Funny KuhaN sure wasn't here begging for a mediator or third-party and only waited until he was assured of winning to pursue it. Highly suspicious when he had every opportunity and been more than enough people actively monitoring this thread to have cemented the bet with a third party. Next time either put up or shut up and stop crying like a baby. Typical Utopian behavior.

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I bet you we beat you! - gentlemen bet

I bet you $100 we beat you! - gentlemen bet with $100 wager.

The fact kuhan 'wouldn't of paid' is a **** excuse to not pay. It's invalid as he won. The whole conversation was typed with a lot if witnesses. To me that is proof enough it was a bet.

Btw wasn't the 3rd party in place to ensure kuhan paid? Proteus you lost so what different does it make if you send $100 to asf or kuhan now?

is PhoenixScorpion actually proteus? Sounds like him.

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He could have made that comment off-the-cuff, thinking ASF would be available to mediate. I find it odd that no one, not even observers in the thread offered to mediate the exchange, yet come here to defend something that was never confirmed.

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I find it odd that you dont think Proteus who leads Rage dont have any knowings about his players whereabouts. Well, you come in here defending Proteus like you're his "bro" while not knowing all the facts, whats the difference?
?

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Re-read what KuhaN posted. He tried to contact ASF and was not able to. At that point if he wanted the bet to be taken serious and was serious about an exchange he would have found another third party, or even posted it in this forum long before end of war or a point where MA was in a clear position of winning. Where and when did he post it in this thread during the first day or so of the war?

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So, he shall distrust Proteus and go find another third party that Proteus could easily discard cause he knew he was losing the bet?

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Im not defending Proteus I am simply statung facts and commonly known information.

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Yea, "He could have made that comment off-the-cuff, thinking ASF would be avaible to mediate" is not really defending Proteus its stating facts right?

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Originally Posted by American Badass

I bet you we beat you! - gentlemen bet

I bet you $100 we beat you! - gentlemen bet with $100 wager.

The fact kuhan 'wouldn't of paid' is a **** excuse to not pay. It's invalid as he won. The whole conversation was typed with a lot if witnesses. To me that is proof enough it was a bet.

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Coming from a Simian, excuse me while I laugh...

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Originally Posted by PhoenixScorpion

Coming from a Simian, excuse me while I laugh...

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I've been here for less than a month.

Stick on topic and how you kd mate is a disgrace and can not honor simple deals.

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Originally Posted by Korp

I dont understand how you fail to miss this, but a third party was proposed and accepted by both sides. Dont you even read the thread or what is that makes you miss that fact over and over again?

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I'm not missing the fact at all. Show me logs or messages that indicate that:

- a third party was agreed
- that third party agreed to be the mediator
- that third party confirmed receiving the money and confirmed the bet's conditions

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Originally Posted by Korp

I find it odd that you dont think Proteus who leads Rage dont have any knowings about his players whereabouts. Well, you come in here defending Proteus like you're his "bro" while not knowing all the facts, whats the difference?
?


So, he shall distrust Proteus and go find another third party that Proteus could easily discard cause he knew he was losing the bet?




Yea, "He could have made that comment off-the-cuff, thinking ASF would be avaible to mediate" is not really defending Proteus its stating facts right?

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Korp your an established troll so this will be my last response to you.

Knowing a players whereabouts has nothing to do with what I posted. Caring enough to go trying to locate or make ASF mediate is another matter. Like I said since KuhaN never suggested or even offered another mediator its a moot point on if Proteus would/wouldnt have accepted the deal. Kind of the same as KuhaN saying he would have paid if he lost. Wouldve, shouldve, couldve. So what. I come in here stating facts after reading the BS in the thread. I love how people go off on tangents, deflect, and use red-herrings to support their positions instead of sticking to the logical aspects of the discussions. Typical fallacious drivel, nothing more.

If he "distrusted" Proteus so much, why would he "trust" his suggested mediator without suggesting one of his own. Especially after it was clear he couldnt contact ASF? Why was no attempt to sort it made in this thread until after the fact? Why does no one see this or point it out and instead use poor excuses and deflecting to bandwagon. Anyone who knows me and Proteus' relationship know I would be first one to point out when he is being stupid, doing something wrong, etc so save it acting like I am being biased.

I stated a possible reason for why he could have suggested him, then been unable to contact him in a timely fashion to make the bet fair to both parties. Since KuhaN did ZERO to mitigate the situation by finding another mediator, he has only himself to blame for not receiving his money. Like csarmi said, money is serious business, and I sure and the hell wouldnt make a wager with some random person I have never met IRL and dont know and have no reason to trust unless there was a mediator. It's not gambling if you have no confirmation the other person will pay. If they never planned on paying, you are the only one "gambling". I hope that clears it up.

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Originally Posted by csarmi

I'm not missing the fact at all. Show me logs or messages that indicate that:

- a third party was agreed
- that third party agreed to be the mediator
- that third party confirmed receiving the money and confirmed the bet's conditions

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Exactly. Points I have been making all along. Actually quite easily to follow and see none of this was done throughout the thread. I guess we are just suppose to take KuhaN's word for it, just like we are suppose to take his word that he would pay lol.

I agree that ASF would be a very good mediator to trust. I can see why both Proteus and KuHaN would trust him. I'd trust him too.

I also agree that ASF been running his mouth and wriggled out of the bet. Maybe he never wanted to take it seriously.

He doesn't seem to owe KuHaN anything, however.

Proteus wants to be an internet tough guy, challenging people to back down from his real money bets. Too bad Kuhan was willing to call his bluff.

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Originally Posted by Proteus

flogger you care to bet with me, you are supposed to be a west coast high roller. put your $$ where your mouth is, hundy spot on this.

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Time to put YOUR money where YOUR mouth is tough guy.


Such a shame, you could have been the guy you seem to want to be in this game by paying the 100 bucks. Now your utopia enemies will never let you live it down.

Phoenix it's imposible to have a hand shake online right? Closest your gonna get is a "verbal" agreement which they did have. You do sound just like proteus "we didn't shake on it plus I had my fingers crossed so it doesn't count!". Obviously neither of you place any value on your name sense you would both rather make up excuses that no one cares about than spend 100$ to keep your name from being dragged through the mud.

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Originally Posted by Evillone

Phoenix it's imposible to have a hand shake online right? Closest your gonna get is a "verbal" agreement which they did have. You do sound just like proteus "we didn't shake on it plus I had my fingers crossed so it doesn't count!". Obviously neither of you place any value on your name sense you would both rather make up excuses that no one cares than spend 100$ to keep your name from being dragged through the mud.

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Actually, it is not impossible at all.
Wanna make the bet serious?

Open a channel on forums or on IRC. Place the players and mediator there. All three confirm that the bet is on, money is transferred, conditions, etc.

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Originally Posted by PhoenixScorpion

Korp your an established troll so this will be my last response to you.

Knowing a players whereabouts has nothing to do with what I posted. Caring enough to go trying to locate or make ASF mediate is another matter. Like I said since KuhaN never suggested or even offered another mediator its a moot point on if Proteus would/wouldnt have accepted the deal. Kind of the same as KuhaN saying he would have paid if he lost. Wouldve, shouldve, couldve. So what. I come in here stating facts after reading the BS in the thread. I love how people go off on tangents, deflect, and use red-herrings to support their positions instead of sticking to the logical aspects of the discussions. Typical fallacious drivel, nothing more.

If he "distrusted" Proteus so much, why would he "trust" his suggested mediator without suggesting one of his own. Especially after it was clear he couldnt contact ASF? Why was no attempt to sort it made in this thread until after the fact? Why does no one see this or point it out and instead use poor excuses and deflecting to bandwagon. Anyone who knows me and Proteus' relationship know I would be first one to point out when he is being stupid, doing something wrong, etc so save it acting like I am being biased.

I stated a possible reason for why he could have suggested him, then been unable to contact him in a timely fashion to make the bet fair to both parties. Since KuhaN did ZERO to mitigate the situation by finding another mediator, he has only himself to blame for not receiving his money. Like csarmi said, money is serious business, and I sure and the hell wouldnt make a wager with some random person I have never met IRL and dont know and have no reason to trust unless their was a mediator. It's not gambling if you have no confirmation the other person will pay. As if they never planned on paying you are the only one "gambling" hope that clears it up.



Exactly. Points I have been making all along. Actually quite easily to follow and see none of this was done throughout the thread. I guess we are just suppose to take KuhaN's word for it, just like we are suppose to take his word that he would pay lol.

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I think you misunderstand... Proteus made the bet, kuhan accepted. Proteus didn't trust kuhan to pay if he lost so suggested ASF. Kuhan accepted but couldn't get hold of him to give him the money. If Proteus was true to his word and KNEW he was going to payout if he lost, WHY does he need a 3rd party?

Regardless as Proteus lost surely ASF should have Proteus $100 and as he lost it can now get sent to kuhan? Doesn't matter now kuhan didn't send.