BB vs PewPew

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Originally Posted by Sheister

The problem is NEW PLAYERS CAN'T QUICKLY (within one or two ages) GET TO THE STAGE WHERE THEY CAN COMPETE AT THE TOP.


You who argue otherwise have spent so long in the top that you have NO IDEA and have completely forgotten what it was like to try to learn this game.

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This is not true. We have two guys playing in our KD who I would consider amongst our top core players (and would probably do well banking if they wanted to) that have played about 2-5 ages each before joining us. Because there's less new players, naturally there's going to be less good players. The cream will rise to the top, but with less new players there's going to be less really good players to challenge the established top. That doesn't mean that good players that get the game almost right from the start when being taught by ghetto monarchs, can't rise to an acceptable level of play where they can challenge the top.

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Originally Posted by Sheister

Now, you can sick 6 fully pumped end of age faery princes with 175% science in crime and channeling and well over 25 mod wpa /tpa on a 15K acre cow and you only get 25% success rate on ops when it has 2.5 raw and 4 mod wpa/tpa. Thats freaking ridiculous.

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Should be way less than 25% against a good cow player. Any cow that has only 2.5 raw and 4 modded wpa/tpa near the end of the age, having been at his max size for a while, is an absolute nub and shouldn't deserve to play a cow.

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Originally Posted by Cello

Should be way less than 25% against a good cow player. Any cow that has only 2.5 raw and 4 modded wpa/tpa near the end of the age, having been at his max size for a while, is an absolute nub and shouldn't deserve to play a cow.

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Are you trying to prove his point for him?

Cello,

Cows are a problem and were a problem then. I am not suddenly doing this. I have said for some time that cow protection is bull.

My fundamental problem comes from this set of facts that I have:

Back in ages 28-35, I used to be able to freely op the hell out of cows and there were no people QQing about it then. We did not have mass quitting. Dragons of abs or beuaty of abs would wave us with their almighty cows and we would fight and have a perfectly fine time.

Now, you can't do anything up top without having a cow. No one can do any ops to cows really and it is just a big pile of who can stack the most onto two or three provinces and then the outcomes are pre-determined.

in short, cows have become a big part of what has made top play boring and inaccessible to kingdoms that might be inclined to try. The other part is the culture of the top that says "oh yay! you have tried to grow up and compete! now I will ****play you, call you a nub and generally make your life hell for even trying!"

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Originally Posted by Sheister

Back in ages 28-35, I used to be able to freely op the hell out of cows and there were no people QQing about it then. We did not have mass quitting.

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False.

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Now, you can't do anything up top without having a cow. No one can do any ops to cows really and it is just a big pile of who can stack the most onto two or three provinces and then the outcomes are pre-determined.

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Also false.

Sheister, you need to join in good KD and start learn game or maybe Flogger have spot in his ghetto.
Cows alone dont win wars. We proved it last age.
good activity+good kingdom cooperation+good setup are much more important.

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Originally Posted by crease

Are you trying to prove his point for him?

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WSk is decent WW ghetto. ZZ are ghetto with cow. You still manage to win your war vs ZZ. So how you see its possible :)

Maybe I should provide a good feedback on what's been discussed the past 2-3 pages because Pyromaniacs were in both warring & whoring tier for the past few ages. I should have a good understanding of what's what.

it's going to be a TLDR post. Sorry BOH, back to my old wall of text posts!

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Originally Posted by American Badass

Remove cow elements from the game and you have a point. Decreasing and going for honor/whoring is totally different and you're not getting experience going for cows etc. Look at pyro for example. Good at waring, bad at prepping. They will only learn by doing though.

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The main difference between warring tier wars and whoring tier wars is that, you can run from the former but there's no way you can run from the latter. When you are at a whoring tier war, you have to fight or give up acres. And acres are valuable. This is different from warring tier war. acres dont mean ****

I can guarantee that if any top tier warring kingdom were to ever prepare for a whoring tier war the first few times, they will definitely fk it up badly. the mechanics and concepts are totally different. Pyros only did well last age winning legacy, bb and simians because 1) it wasnt a fully prepared war for both sides, and hence we are still able to prepare decently 2) we had some advantages in the 2nd and 3rd war 3) and we had decently good grew.

We sucked badly vs CR end of last age cause we didnt know how to prepare. We sucked badly vs CR this age oop because we were basically fighting with just pure brute strength (and humans too). CR probably thinks pyro sucks badly at warring lol.

We lost to Rage because of 1 main reason. Pool difference. I dare say if we had even pool, Pyro would definitely have much better chances given the activity shown prior to war and war itself.

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Originally Posted by Elit

Don't want to be mean...but if AMA/BB/CR spend 1 age waring with "top" war KDs (no run allowed) next age all will beg them: pls go play for land we don't need it again. You cant imagine how much more destructive going to be for newbies KDs to war us.

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I can guarantee if that AMA/BB/CR were to join the warring tier, and engage in fair 1v1 wars (i think they can even start with some disadvantages), they will rape all the warring tier kingdoms. I think alot of warring tier kingdoms will hate me for saying this, but I think that having fought both top warring tier wars and whoring tier wars, my words would have some substance. But then again, it's always good to try to bring the game to the better kingdoms.

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Originally Posted by Sheister

All the posts regarding cows.

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Cows isnt the main problem. It's a snowball effect. and it comes from the first main reason, lack of kingdoms at the top..

-cJ

Elit,

I have been part of well led structures than won against cows. But if cows are dealt with in normal conflict without great sacrifice, then the top kingdoms would not bother running them. Stop speaking about them like they are not a big deal. If they were not a big deal then you would not have put the effort into creating them. Do not try to tell me that you have not worked to coordinate aid times and logins so that these things could be aided up in a given tick and so on and so forth.

Let me be frank:

Last time I was in a kingdom that successfully dealt with a cow we did it with 6 faery TM princes as I described abvoe. Each faery was 6K acres. That is 36K acres and corresponding 200 NWPA on each. It took us 6 days of hostile to fireball down the cow and then in the war we still had to spend every waking moment on that freaking cow. The cow was 15K acres and 195 NWA at the start (92NWA at war start) and we still had only 25% success rate the entire way through. The resources we had to spend to neutralize that thing were ridiculous.

This is also a KD that every age when we moved it either accidentally or purposefully into the top 10 we had the most miserable time ever because of the attitudes and BS of the top 10 (which now are top 4 (being generous)) kingdoms. This KD had the skill to learn and try to contend and the discipline to learn and try to contend. But honestly, why? Why would anyone put themselves through that?

Now, if it were possible to at least make a good fight without having to engage in all the IRC bull that you have to now, kingdoms could grow up, fight win/lose (mostly lose) but at least have a fun time and MAYBE derive the motivation to try out the IRC bull and start interacting.

what happens now is, you grow into the top. The top collectively assert some farcicle moral code on you by virture of growing up there and immediately start to bully and ****-play you. The diplomacy is "this is how it works in the top, bend over! LOLZ NUB!" Seriously, what a freaing craptastic way to spend what is supposed to be fun time. So no, people who want to play high only want to join kingdoms where there is someone who likes talking to assholes and already knows them all because no one else can stand talking to all the "diplomats" up top.

Now, in direct conflict, yes cows only affect the few kingdoms that directly conflict. But there is a "chilling" effect of cows. That is, if you are a KD with promise and some skill and you find yourself in feeding range of these kingdoms with cows, you might be tempted to try to war but more likely you know its not worth even trying because of the extreme effort and dedication needed to deal with those provinces. So you know the most efficient and least annoying thing to do is to land drop. So you make an offer of free land to whatever of the larger kingdoms you hate the least and you let them take those acres off you and shape you so that you can go back to enjoying the game.

So cows affect a lot more than you give them credit for.

Sheister, its very simple. Lets asume here is no way for any one to build cows, and here is cap and province cant grow over 20% from second smaller prov from him in server. So how this will end? On solo mode its mean prov n1-2 will start raze rest provs try to grow for keep his spot. On kingdom level its mean all core will be same size and bigger from rest kds. they will hit all age down in 60% nw range and still wont let you grow and get any chances for fight back.
Its wont be any better. this is straegy game. If here is ways for build advantage people will build it. If here is no ways game wont be more strategy.
Cows affect much less kingdoms/provinces from what you think. This is not game problem at all.

I am not saying no one should build cows. I am saying that it should not be as hard as it is now (and no, I do not mean make it easy) to oppose a cow.

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Originally Posted by Sheister

I am not saying no one should build cows. I am saying that it should not be as hard as it is now (and no, I do not mean make it easy) to oppose a cow.

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Build cows is not hard. All you need is proper diplo. Good example is ZZ. Its new kingdom but they have cows. Pouet have "cows" too. Its 20 prov kingdom.

rofl Pouet for some reason got away with the fake war BS while flashdance got the brunt of whatever the punishment was. lol. so funny.

OK, so new KD's should cheat, roger.

Also, I did not say building cows was hard, I said OPPOSING them is hard. Building them takes coordination.

The only way for a new kd to build a cow is to cheat?

You're grasping at straws man

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Originally Posted by Palem

The only way for a new kd to build a cow is to cheat?

You're grasping at straws man

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I did not say only. He put up two examples. One is a KD that cheated. The other is ZZ which has a number of older players with connections. So the only example he put up (and I am not sure the players is pouet do not have connections) is a KD that had an OOP fake war.

Right, so you insinuate that the only way for a newer kd (with no older players that know people) is to cheat? Instead of...ya know...doing diplo like Elit said lol

Believe it or not you don't have to know people for 20 ages to be able to talk to them.

Need? No. But it helps you make deals when others can't. I can tell you that monument before maximouse left and monument after maximouse left were completely different kingdoms and that is almost entirely because of his relationships and connections. The roster and leadership was 95% the same.

Yes you can always say "hi, i am a compeltely new person to you but I would like to negotiate a long term CF with your kingdom."

the person on the other side says to themselves (understandably) "who is this person and do I trust them?"


the differences in concessions and success are vastly different. It is obvious to see why.

Not to mention that when you are trying to figure this stuff out you can run afoul of all sorts of problems. Let me give you an example.

first age after maximouse left. We ended up getting corned by ghetto cats. It was a bad spot and we were going to get majorly hurt and lose. Not a doubt in my mind. I negotiated a little time to recover and pump and a date certain war start with them. Best of a bad situation but it is what it is. So we were preparing for war and while we were doing that, we got back doored by ..... I forget who, but someone. They hurt us very very badly. I went to ghetto cats and said, I need more time because... They were understandably at end of patience time. We did some retals to try to get some land back in time and pray. Someone in the KD over-retalled and we ended up in a war like 6 hrs before spgc was going to start. Elurin was extremely upset (only bad experience I ever had with elurin). We were deal breakers etc etc and we were going to pay for it etc.

Now, I had not set out to deal break or do anything bad, but things happened around me and I poorly controlled it. It turns out SPGC disbanded before the axe fell and I still feel bad about it but this is the sort of thing that gets you black balled in the top quite a bit. On top of all of that, the way out is to ask your KD to sit there and take a beating (which most newer players do not understand) and assuming you don't have to do a rash of recruiting and rebuilding after your newer players all leave you hope you can get some future productive diplomacy done after that.

It is just not easy. (imho)

Another time, BiO waves us and demands free acres. Morale in the KD is low, I am facing the departure of significant part of the core if we give free wave. Lots of infighting and stress. What to do? This was not easy to deal with in a relatively successful and experienced KD in which all the members genuinely liked each other and had played together for a solid 6+ ages, I can't imagine trying to do it with a newer KD. turns out we gave acres after hours of agonizing diplomacy that to this day still makes me never want to do diplomacy ever again and yeah, we came back later and got out revenge on BiO but still what a completely craptastic 4 days that was.

diplomacy is not easy at all. It is the most time consuming and obnoxious part of the game.

so diplomacy to build cows is something that is just not going to happen for newer KDs Palem. (or at least VERY FEW of them). But allowing for great ability to oppose cows is something that can be easily implemented but adjusting some penalties in the game engine. We can't regulate people doing diplomacy, but we can regulate their ease of navigating the game.