Proposal to end he Awar

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21-06-2015, 16:10
Squee311

Quote:

Originally Posted by Korp

Do you have some magic ability in Utopia where you can train up superfast? In the span of fours hours?

WH... oh wait last age proceed with correct argument
21-06-2015, 16:13
Verminator

Quote:

Originally Posted by lampost

The BB response to this whole situation is DISproportionate to the extreme and has resulted in such a mess of a situation that could have simply been resolved diplomatically. After they made a CF deal with Emeriti with the intention of breaking it, future CF deals will always be in doubt.

As an outsider looking in, this point resonates with me the most. Not excusing Emeriti's questionable actions, but I definitely agree that BB's response was disproportionate and was driven too much by emotion and not enough by brains, leading to quite the clusterbleep across many fronts.

But hey, how else would we get our Uto-excitement these days? :)
21-06-2015, 16:17
AquaSeaFoam

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leonidas

It almost seems that for Emeriti this solely started with the dealbreak, and that it's purely BB's fault that they didn't accept what they felt was a paltry offer of reparations (which is their right). Your point seems to imply that the offending party can unilaterally decide the reparations to be made. It also follows that if Emeriti had themselves waved into BB's EOWCF but had offered some repayment that Emeriti deemed acceptable, and BB didn't accept, that would have absolved Emeriti of any blame whatsoever as well.

This doesn't seem to figure in any of the proposals / discussions / assessments that have come up, about who gets to determine what a proportionate response to transgressions are.

And because I know you'll state that Emeriti is being awfully charitable by covering for Bourreau's transgressions, I would state that whatever the case, it would set a bad precedent and create a highly anti-competitive situation where there are multiple kingdoms in the age there just to screw with the main competitors they don't like. Because, based on this age, we've establised that it's perfectly okay for a "friend" to mess with another competing kingdom.

Leonidas, you make some well thought out statements. As for the reparations which were offered, they were not paltry, nor were they unilaterally decided on. Bour's reparations were finally accepted by BB and were delivered. He gave BB 2.8x the land he razed and he also agreed to BB's acre caps on his and his kingdom mates provinces. He had the #1 province before this and it was destroyed by this. Emeriti offered BB whatever BB felt needed to fully ensure their position was not damaged including land, gold, adjusted cf terms to BB's specification, and whatever else was needed to ensure the situation was fixed. This is no paltry or unilateral offer and it is the most generous offer given to any top kingdom in recent ages for any damages that I know of. I know of a lot of other recent "dirty play" by top kingdoms that was much worse than this (including by the kingdoms involved) where nothing was offered.

You should also understand, that no friend was sent to mess with BB. Bour was advised to get a cf for himself with Bb and was advised that if BB wouldn't give it to him he could raze while theyw ere weak to force one. this was bad advice and was apologized for, but it's clear from Bour's multiple cf offers and offers of all land plus more and other help to BB, that this was not about "messing" with BB. It was just about a #1 prov in a weak kingdom getting himself a cf before he got farmed. The intention may matter to some and not to others but I think it's important that it's not misrepresented.
21-06-2015, 16:21
flogger

Aquaseafoam: Real question - You have said the same thing over and over again at least 50 times already. Do you think that it's that 51st time that's going to change anyone's mind?
21-06-2015, 16:25
lampost

Quote:

Originally Posted by flogger

Aquaseafoam: Real question - You have said the same thing over and over again at least 50 times already. Do you think that it's that 51st time that's going to change anyone's mind?

Your suddenly a friend offering advice?

Well done for making such a mess of the game. Unnecessarily.
21-06-2015, 16:26
bombdigie

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

Leonidas, you make some well thought out statements. As for the reparations which were offered, they were not paltry, nor were they unilaterally decided on. Bour's reparations were finally accepted by BB and were delivered. He gave BB 2.8x the land he razed and he also agreed to BB's acre caps on his and his kingdom mates provinces. He had the #1 province before this and it was destroyed by this. Emeriti offered BB whatever BB felt needed to fully ensure their position was not damaged including land, gold, adjusted cf terms to BB's specification, and whatever else was needed to ensure the situation was fixed. This is no paltry or unilateral offer and it is the most generous offer given to any top kingdom in recent ages for any damages that I know of. I know of a lot of other recent "dirty play" by top kingdoms that was much worse than this (including by the kingdoms involved) where nothing was offered.

You should also understand, that no friend was sent to mess with BB. Bour was advised to get a cf for himself with Bb and was advised that if BB wouldn't give it to him he could raze while theyw ere weak to force one. this was bad advice and was apologized for, but it's clear from Bour's multiple cf offers and offers of all land plus more and other help to BB, that this was not about "messing" with BB. It was just about a #1 prov in a weak kingdom getting himself a cf before he got farmed. The intention may matter to some and not to others but I think it's important that it's not misrepresented.

No one cares about your reparations. Inconsequential.
21-06-2015, 16:27
lampost

The guy with the outrageously false accusations simply does not know when to stop.
21-06-2015, 16:28
bombdigie

Quote:

Originally Posted by lampost

Your suddenly a friend offering advice?

Well done for making such a mess of the game. Unnecessarily.

Abs alliance continues to point the finger. Pathetic.
21-06-2015, 16:28
lampost

Quote:

Originally Posted by bombdigie

Pathetic.

Look in the mirror for that
21-06-2015, 16:29
bombdigie

Quote:

Originally Posted by lampost

The guy with the outrageously false accusations simply does not know when to stop.

We didn't feel like quitting the game watching your alliance blatantly cheat and chart shape, we decided to destroy your alliance instead. Coward.
21-06-2015, 16:30
Heiney

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMP

I would like to clarify some of the confusion regarding Pandas and Sillies CF.

The CF deal was made long before any of this, Sillies told us they only grew to war WSK, that the top 1 was never their objective. We told them it was good, since both kds had good relations, that we didn't set for top 1 either, were mostly on a war age, even if having extreme difficulty in finding them.

Later we decided to wave 8:11, after we noticed that they changed their one way razes into a third party war and their monarch hit Sleepy. 8:11 was tagged CF or War as well and being the only kd in our range who was available and with an interesting setup allied to an agressive attitude, we decided to send a partial wave to tempt them to war.

They informed us that they were still involved in the awar and we reached a CF deal with 8:11 alone.

No other deal was made with any other kd nor about the AWAR. We did inform all parties and CJ was aware of it aswell, that we had no interest in the awar and were remaining neutral as we were until then.

Some days later we became aware of new developments and information, that changed the way many felt about this awar. The entry of other kds with whom with had friendly relations joined allied to the new facts, made us decide that we should participate in this awar.

Sillies were worried we would get a lot of land and get our way to top 1, to which we stated again that being top 1 was not our objective, if it happened it would be nice, but never an objective. Something I believe that could not be more clear by the fact that we joined an awar, a type of conflict that is certainly not the best strategy to grow.

I have never seen anyone defending that participating in a conflict vs several kds, with trading attacks, razes, bounces, all the ops from various sides, would be a good strategy to get your way to the top. I truly believe this to be one of the most awful ways to try and win ages, but I strongly advise kds that believe its possible to try it if we are in a age fighting for the top 1, because I believe it would make our life easier.

Accusing Pandas of using this awar to grow or to run from a CF deal, is just not fair and incorrect, since should we want to take advantage of the situation, we would never take part on this war and use the time to grow easily oow and explore safely.

This by no means is equal to anyone accusing Sillies and CJ of taking advantage of this situation, but it is clearly an optimal position to be if you want to and are in a good spot to go for the top 1.

1) Based on a stray hit, you concluded they were not in an AWAR and made 60 over razes count for nothing. Even if you were given the benefit of the doubt that you want to "tempt" them into war, why would you ask for an additional 3.5k acres for CF and allow them to continue in their awar?

2) Sillies was never worried that you would gain a lot of land in the AWAR. We were more concerned that we gave a CF because you said you were not going to join the AWAR, therefore we were fine giving extra time to prep and war at a later date. Had we known that you were going to join the AWAR, our actions might have been very different. We MIGHT have waved you right on the spot instead of letting you take your free acres from meep. This being said, no one from your side replied to my question that none of the alliance would step in/ interfere if we ever notice you after the AWAR. Again we will give you the benefit of the doubt that you hated abs and felt very strongly about joining.
21-06-2015, 16:31
lampost

Quote:

Originally Posted by bombdigie

We didn't feel like quitting the game watching your alliance blatantly cheat and chart shape, we decided to destroy your alliance instead. Coward.

You felt like making complete false accusations that your own side realized were utter lies.
21-06-2015, 16:31
bombdigie

All I see is a bunch of abs alliance cry babies, "It's not fair! You ruined our age! We planned everything so perfectly and you had to ruin everything!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bEJz-HlK8Q
21-06-2015, 16:32
citadela01

I phase out whenever ASF starts repeating his mantra, its not even intentional decision ... i just find myself skipping everything else in that particular post and move onward to next one.
21-06-2015, 16:33
bombdigie

Quote:

Originally Posted by lampost

You felt like making complete false accusations that your own side realized were utter lies.

Until you prove otherwise, everything you say is false. Everything I said is genuine. Your only defense is "coincidence". Okay keep telling yourselves that, maybe you will eventually believe it.
21-06-2015, 16:38
lampost

Quote:

Originally Posted by bombdigie

All I see is a bunch of abs alliance cry babies, "It's not fair! You ruined our age! We planned everything so perfectly and you had to ruin everything!"

No crying. Just bb and mates causing an awar and breaking deals over things that should be resolved diplomatically. Which even when it ends will possibly cause long term damage.

You however are on a level of your own. Making blatantly false accusations that your own side admit to be wrong just because you feel like it. Then having the audacity to be so proud of those false accusations.
21-06-2015, 16:40
Palem

Let's act like grown ups.
21-06-2015, 16:42
lampost

Quote:

Originally Posted by bombdigie

Until you prove otherwise, everything you say is false. Everything I said is genuine. Your only defense is "coincidence". Okay keep telling yourselves that, maybe you will eventually believe it.

No the onus is on you, to prove your outrageous claims. And its funny that PYRO was established and officially CONFIRMED as cheaters last age.

Established rule breakers do not have the right to make claims based off what pops into the head one sunny morning.

Aside from this, your own side says your talking a load of nonsense.
21-06-2015, 16:44
AquaSeaFoam

flogger, citadela01, I repeat those facts because most of the arguments coming from your side are based off ignoring those facts and don't hold any water in light of the facts. Your side conveniently tries to ignore or even lie about these facts since most all of your points fall apart when they are considered.

If people claim we didn't offer reasonable reparations to whatever BB needed, then I'll repeat the fact that we did. If people claim that bour was out to "FSU" bb, then I will point out how he tried to cf before any hits and offered all land plus extra free land back at the time he did hit and offered extras to ensure BB wasn't hurt if he could just get his cf.
21-06-2015, 17:01
Judge

O Flogger,

Lets say that we do what you ask us to. raze down our banks and dont go above acre cap as we instigated a thought to hit in eowcf in bour's mind.

Then we should even make sure that Pandamodium, BB, Jerks, pyro and the other kds should also be razed down and stay below an acre cap as even they have blatantly broken all CF's and have been hitting in eowcf and active wars?
21-06-2015, 17:35
Aranfein

ASF, I cant understand how you can personally claim such thing regarding EoWCFs, i feel the supporters you have and the actual respect people have for you makes those claims open a whole can of worms in regards to future EoWCFs...

I am of the belief that EoWCFs should be treated as sacred because a kingdom just finishing a war should be able to relax for the 96hrs (if they so choose) to recover and rebuild their kingdom, anything else is cowardly and totally dishonourable when it comes to a game like utopia.

Also you didnt advice Bour that he "could" hit into EoWCF with razes you adviced him he "should", there is a huge difference here, also i can understand your the face of Emeriti, your diplomatic skills and calmness makes for good solid debates, however i think hearing from Dorje, Cerebrus etc. that all thought it was a fine idea to hit into EoWCF should respond, without some prediscussed copy/paste line.

Furthermore your offer to sort the situation was in my eyes fair and personally i would probs have accepted it, but given the fact those it was done to have a long history of feeling wronged by numerous things Abs has done but also can decide for themselves what would be a fair solution to the whole issue would be..

I heard Flogger & Co, requested you stepped out of the growth race for the age to solve this, which you declined? They have counter negotiated but neither side wants to give in because your both stubborn as mules.

If a solution could be made that benefits all the kingdoms on one side as you cant just expect to negotiate with BB and the "awar" is over, there is far more to it then that, I am not sure if its the same for your side (kingdoms).

Its true Abs is no more, but everyone sees you and Emeriti as the face of Abs, especially now Zauper has joined you, its like the collective kingdoms of Abs in 1.. So yea people will not let things go easy thats built over the many ages where Abs has powerplayed their way to securing the top for god knows how many ages.

I remember when i first came back, we talking 2007/2008, i created a Human, that went top top5 and i held this all the way to YR11 or YR12, suddenly everyone in top 16 decided to hit me, i wondered why and defended myself as good as i could, i wasnt really keeping eye on who was at the top at the time as i had rejoined to relax and get to enjoy the game again.

I find out the top 15 was all the top Abs kingdoms having Humans too, and i was the only eye sore in the top and from a ghetto at that (think i was 14k acres or so), by the time the age finished YR13? i was down to mid 25's on ranking and Abs held the top, basically i had been targetted by 3 or 4 Abs kingdoms because i had a human in the top, thats powerplay and thats what people remember, so just keep that in mind.
21-06-2015, 17:36
Judge

Also flogger why didnt you action pyro when they blatantly farmed millions of gcs from CJ's kd in the war against us? Why double standards? Or is it that you didnt action cos they are your allies?
21-06-2015, 17:42
Korp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judge

Also flogger why didnt you action pyro when they blatantly farmed millions of gcs from CJ's kd in the war against us? Why double standards? Or is it that you didnt action cos they are your allies?

Did you action them? :(
21-06-2015, 17:42
flogger

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

flogger, citadela01, I repeat those facts because most of the arguments coming from your side are based off ignoring those facts and don't hold any water in light of the facts. Your side conveniently tries to ignore or even lie about these facts since most all of your points fall apart when they are considered.

If people claim we didn't offer reasonable reparations to whatever BB needed, then I'll repeat the fact that we did. If people claim that bour was out to "FSU" bb, then I will point out how he tried to cf before any hits and offered all land plus extra free land back at the time he did hit and offered extras to ensure BB wasn't hurt if he could just get his cf.

"facts"
21-06-2015, 17:45
Judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Korp

Did you action them? :(

We actually defeated them even with the GC farming?
21-06-2015, 17:45
flogger

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judge

Also flogger why didnt you action pyro when they blatantly farmed millions of gcs from CJ's kd in the war against us? Why double standards? Or is it that you didnt action cos they are your allies?

Pretty much everyone at one point or another has farmed some GC at some point in some age. Dorje did it once and my zara came back home as a result. 20 some odd ages never had all my top provs razed in EoW.
21-06-2015, 17:48
Judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by flogger

Pretty much everyone at one point or another has farmed some GC at some point in some age. Dorje did it once and my zara came back home as a result. 20 some odd ages never had all my top provs razed in EoW.

I asked you another question. You are actioning us and asking us to stay below acre cap and blah blah blah. Does it remain the same with all the kds participating in this awar? Cos all of them have Deal broke, hit in war and in eowcf too..
21-06-2015, 17:49
flogger

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judge

I asked you another question. You are actioning us and asking us to stay below acre cap and blah blah blah. Does it remain the same with all the kds participating in this awar? Cos all of them have Deal broke, hit in war and in eowcf too..

Its been two weeks, you think everyone on both sides are gonna wanna raze down? I doubt it.
21-06-2015, 17:50
Judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by flogger

Its been two weeks, you think everyone on both sides are gonna wanna raze down? I doubt it.

So you want to set a precedent and yourself not wanna follow it?

Here you means kds associated with you!
21-06-2015, 17:51
Korp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judge

We actually defeated them even with the GC farming?

So, you didnt action them. :( Did you action jdorje when he intra farmed gold back in age 48 or whatever?
21-06-2015, 17:53
Judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Korp

So, you didnt action them. :( Did you action jdorje when he intra farmed gold back in age 48 or whatever?

Neither did any of the kds who are actually playing..
21-06-2015, 17:55
Korp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judge

Neither did any of the kds who are actually playing..

So you set a standard when you then allies intra alliance farms gold and dont action them. But you harass flogger for not actioning Pyro? Pretty hypocritical imo..
21-06-2015, 17:57
SlightlyOverdosed

Judge, Has Emerity asked for them to be actioned? Was it brought into the forums? Have you approached any of the KDs that are now helping BB?

No one is claiming to be Utopia police, that finds cases for themselves and investigates them, you want help/action? Bring it to the community.
21-06-2015, 17:59
Felonious

Quote:

Originally Posted by flogger

Pretty much everyone at one point or another has farmed some GC at some point in some age. Dorje did it once and my zara came back home as a result. 20 some odd ages never had all my top provs razed in EoW.

They also used multis to get a fake war. Really odd ally choice in your war against "dirty play"
21-06-2015, 18:00
Judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Korp

So you set a standard when you then allies intra alliance farms gold and dont action them. But you harass flogger for not actioning Pyro? Pretty hypocritical imo..

No I am just asking him why he didnt take any action or to put it in simpler words what are his views abt it when CJ & Nesta clearly admitted about it?
21-06-2015, 18:01
lampost

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felonious

They also used multis to get a fake war. Really odd ally choice in your war against "dirty play"

hear hear, and that was as recent as last age.
21-06-2015, 18:06
SlightlyOverdosed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judge

No I am just asking him why he didnt take any action or to put it in simpler words what are his views abt it when CJ & Nesta clearly admitted about it?

Emerity themselves, the transgressed party, evidently decided that actioning was not needed, as they themselves have not initiated any action, nor asked for help [am I wrong?].
Why would another KD butt in uninvited and dish out some law?
21-06-2015, 18:07
Korp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felonious

They also used multis to get a fake war. Really odd ally choice in your war against "dirty play"

And Emeriti used allies to raze BB and thats even this age... but thats apparently okey. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by lampost

hear hear, and that was as recent as last age.

Those the crime get less bad if its done several ages ago than say last age?
21-06-2015, 18:09
Judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlightlyOverdosed

Judge, Has Emerity asked for them to be actioned? Was it brought into the forums? Have you approached any of the KDs that are now helping BB?

No one is claiming to be Utopia police, that finds cases for themselves and investigates them, you want help/action? Bring it to the community.

I guess you didnt read it. It was a direct action from us where we defeated thm even after the GC farming. I am again asking flogger that if he wants the top without cheating then as ASF pointed out, why did flogger wait till it happened to him and not on others? Why is PYRO supporting this when they have done DUBIOUS things in VERY RECENT past?

Also Note that BB last age hit down some kd/province in hostile against their now friends FS(ASF pointed this out). Is bouncing down or hitting down a province in Hostile legit?
21-06-2015, 18:10
flogger

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felonious

They also used multis to get a fake war. Really odd ally choice in your war against "dirty play"

pyro had 10 people leave their kd and you replace that with 10 guys you don't know. We know that cause CJ left and some others took the age off as well. 1 of em was bad. Both BB and Abs have traded in players who do bad things, pyro was punished pretty significantly if I recall.

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