Ukraine says has 'compelling evidence' of plane shoot down

KIEV (Reuters) - Ukraine has "compelling evidence" Russia played a defining role in the shooting down of a Malaysian airliner by providing the rebels with missile systems and a crew, the country's counter intelligence chief said on Saturday.

Vitaly Naida said Kiev had proof three BUK-1, or SA-11 radar guided missile systems, had entered Ukraine from neighboring Russia along with a three-man crew.

"We have compelling evidence that this terrorist act was committed with the help of the Russian Federation. We know clearly that the crew of this system were Russian citizens," he told a news conference.

Calling on Russia to give Ukraine the names and surnames of the crew so that Kiev could question them, he said the three systems had now been moved back to Russia, showing journalists pictures of the missile systems in various locations.

"We know about the three people who came together with these systems from the territory of Russia," he said.

(Reporting by Pavel Polityuk; Writing by Elizabeth Piper; Editing by Louise Ireland)

But wait, it gets better.

Ukraine says Russia helping destroy crash evidence

HRABOVE, Ukraine (AP) — Ukraine accused Russia on Saturday of helping separatist rebels destroy evidence at the crash site of a Malaysia Airlines plane shot down in rebel-held territory — a charge the rebels denied.

As dozens of victims' bodies lay in bags by the side of the road baking in the summer heat, international monitors at the crash site Saturday said they were still being hampered by heavily armed rebels.

"Some of the body bags are open and the damage to the corpses is very, very bad. It is very difficult to look at," OSCE spokesman Michael Bociurkiw told reporters in a phone call from the site, where the smell of decaying bodies was unmistakable.

He said the 24-member delegation was given further access Saturday to the crash site but their movements were being limited by the rebels. The site sprawls eight square miles (20 square kilometers) across sunflower and wheat fields between two villages in eastern Ukraine.

"We have to be very careful with our movements because of all the security," Bociurkiw said. "We are unarmed civilians, so we are not in a position to argue with people with heavy arms."

Flight 17 from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was carrying 298 people from 13 nations when it was shot down Thursday in eastern Ukraine close to the Russian border, an area that has seen months of clashes between government troops and pro-Russia separatists.

At an emergency meeting of the U.N. Security Council, the U.S. pointed blame at the separatists, saying Washington believes the jetliner likely was downed by an SA-11 missile and "we cannot rule out technical assistance from Russian personnel."

The government in Kiev said militiamen have removed 38 bodies from the crash site and have taken them to the rebel-held city of Donetsk. It said the bodies were transported with the assistance of specialists with distinct Russian accents.

The rebels are also "seeking large transports to carry away plane fragments to Russia," the Ukrainian government said Saturday.

In Donetsk, separatist leader Alexander Borodai denied that any bodies had been transferred or that the rebels had in any way interfered with the work of observers. He said he encouraged the involvement of the international community in assisting with the cleanup before the conditions of the bodies worsens significantly.

As emergency workers put some 80 bodies into bags Saturday, Bociurkiw stressed that his team was not at the site to conduct a full-scale investigation.

"We are looking at security on the perimeter of the crash site, looking at the status in the condition of the bodies, the status in the condition of the debris, and also personal belongings," he said.

Ukraine also called on Moscow to insist that the pro-Russia rebels grant international experts the ability to conduct a thorough, impartial investigation into the downing of the plane — echoing a demand that President Barack Obama issued a day earlier from Washington.

"The integrity of the site has been compromised, and there are indications that vital evidence has not been preserved in place," Malaysian Transport Minister Liow Tiong Lai said at a news conference in Kuala Lumpur.

He called for immediate access for Malaysia's team at the site to retrieve human remains.

Ukraine says it has passed along all information on developments relating to Thursday's downing to its European and U.S. partners.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Russian President Vladimir Putin agreed in a phone call Saturday that an independent, international commission led by the International Civil Aviation Organization, ICAO, should be granted swift access to the crash site, said government spokesman Georg Streiter.

The commission should examine the circumstances of the crash and recover the victims, said Streiter, adding that Merkel urged Putin to use his influence over the separatists to make that happen.

In the Netherlands, forensic teams fanned out across the country Saturday to collect material including DNA samples that will help positively identify the remains of the 192 Dutch victims.

Police said in a tweet that 40 pairs of detectives from the National Forensic Investigations Team would be visiting victims' relatives over the coming days.

The location of the black boxes remains a mystery and the separatist leadership remained adamant Saturday that it had not located them. Bociurkiw also said he had received no information on their whereabouts.

Malaysians are dirty ladyboys anyway.

Most passengers were Dutch, but there were people from 13 different nations on the plane; nearly 300 people total. Have a little heart.

Don't expect heart from a traitor to humanity. ;)

You know after sifting through the news, a worse idea popped up in my head. It's not compelling evidence we hear, everything is unverified, but suppose you saw the unverified as true to an extent. And with extent I mean that it may actually be worse than what the Ukrainians think it is. Lets say for instance that it wasn't an accidental misidentification. I mean, think about it, why didn't they even bother identifying at all? It could be because a drunk criminal rebel was behind the controls, but what if it weren't. Do any of you remember about a month earlier when the first embargoes came in to place against Russia. Putin made some gas deals with China. What if he made more deals than that? Like lets say a weapons deal. If I were a Chinese buyer of a newly developed SA missile system, or an older second-hand system, how would I verify that this product is any good?

Yeah it's not compelling evidence yet because these Russian thugs are moving bodies around, destroying evidence, and holding up a proper investigation. As to your other thoughts, I'm leaning more towards a scenario in which it was a mistake due to the fact that particular launcher doesn't have a commercial IFF system and couldn't hear the commercial plane "squawking" a continuous friendly message, which they all do. But who knows at this point? One thing is clear though, the Dutch are furious, and every nation knows Russia is the one supplying these heavy weapon platforms to the rebels in a conflict they largely propagated.

I read an article which stated that bodies were literally falling out of the sky, mostly naked, landing on roof tops and fields, some next to this orphanage in Ukraine. So even under the best conditions, an investigation and getting real answers would be difficult. In the middle of a war zone? Good luck.

Quite true that these are some things you can expect in a warzone. As for the IFF that may be true, but it is also plausible, that the no IFF choice, is a deliberate choice. Anyhow it's just a theory, albeit a very nasty one. This theory came into my head after watching the former CIA officer on CNN. He made a comment that he had never seen such good quality sound unless it came directly from the phone operator. Can Putin really be this stupid to have his men getting caught that way? I mean we are talking ex-KGB officers. Is Putin really that weak? You see to me that looks very suspicious.

Doesn't really matter whether they intentionally left out the IFF, it takes an active action to launch the missiles so it was an intentional and malicious act fully intended to take down the aircraft it was aiming at.
They probably thought that it was a Ukrainian troop transport(which is a legitimate military target) but that doesn't resolve them of any responsibility or guilt whatsoever in whether they intended to shoot down a civilian airliner or not.
International law is crystal clear on that part, it lies upon every soldier to establish beyond any doubt that the target is not civilian(typically this is filtered down the chain of command through standing orders because ICAO goes out of it's way to inform nations what civilian air traffic will be crossing their skies), hence there can be no excuse or justification to shoot down a civilian target other than an electrical malfunction where the missile launched without being commanded to do so.

The rebels are thugs and terrorists and so are Russia for arming them(not to mention that Russia annexed Ukrainian territory, also in violation of international law)

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Originally Posted by Elldallan

Doesn't really matter whether they intentionally left out the IFF, it takes an active action to launch the missiles so it was an intentional and malicious act fully intended to take down the aircraft it was aiming at.

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actually no it does matter. The difference is in the motive. One is stupidity, the other a lot more inhumane. If it is the latter you have to consider far tougher and more active stance against Putin and his allies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elldallan

They probably thought that it was a Ukrainian troop transport(which is a legitimate military target) but that doesn't resolve them of any responsibility or guilt whatsoever in whether they intended to shoot down a civilian airliner or not.
International law is crystal clear on that part, it lies upon every soldier to establish beyond any doubt that the target is not civilian(typically this is filtered down the chain of command through standing orders because ICAO goes out of it's way to inform nations what civilian air traffic will be crossing their skies), hence there can be no excuse or justification to shoot down a civilian target other than an electrical malfunction where the missile launched without being commanded to do so.

The rebels are thugs and terrorists and so are Russia for arming them(not to mention that Russia annexed Ukrainian territory, also in violation of international law)

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what is it with this culpability and international laws on the news? I'm going to quote Pompey here. "Stop quoting laws, we carry swords." If you really think Putin gives a **** about international law, you are sorely mistaken. And if you think the relatives and friends care about legal retribution, you are also sorely mistaken. Ask any parent who lost a child and give them two options, where they must choose one of the two proposed options, A) receive money from the murderer as a form of punishment or compensation for their loss (whatever way you want to see it) or B) see the murderer isolated from society so he can pose no further harm to society. I say to you most sensible parents will choose the latter option. No more lawyer prattle please. I'd rather see political action over legal action here. It is far more effective.


Also do these newsanchors seriously believe Russia will ever pay any damages. Heck Putin will admit his complicity when pigs fly. So don't go that road, it leads to nowhere. In this situation "to carry a big stick and speak softly" will get you a lot further, than to yell "because" or to say "Putin needs to man up", since he won't do that. His silence already speaks volume.

Seriously I dont get some of these American newsanchors in particular. Each time they speak of culpability, to me it only shows that they don't give a rats-ass for their fellow American citizen who died there. It may only be one American, but he was a human being too for goodness sake. To me Kerry really is the bigger man here than for example Candy Crowley, she really doesn't get it.

I had hoped the EU countries would take another look at their fuel contracts with Russia and perhaps find a way to kick out of them early. I don't think that's going to happen though, as countries have painted themselves into a corner by relying on Putin for so long. Foreign investment is down in Russia, and their economy is basically flat, but that hardly seems like a real punishment. It's hard to admit, but Putin can basically get away with everything with very little backlash. This how tyrants are made.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BasketCase

I had hoped the EU countries would take another look at their fuel contracts with Russia and perhaps find a way to kick out of them early. I don't think that's going to happen though, as countries have painted themselves into a corner by relying on Putin for so long. Foreign investment is down in Russia, and their economy is basically flat, but that hardly seems like a real punishment. It's hard to admit, but Putin can basically get away with everything with very little backlash. This how tyrants are made.

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I for one can tell you right now. I'd rather be cold in winter than get gas from Russia. However I also know that some people don't think that way, even in the Netherlands. I know of a guy in Groningen, he was my upstairs neighbour. He worked for the gasunie company, these are the guys that made the Dutch-German-Russian gas deals. He basically told me flat into my face that Medvedev was a great guy, one you could do business with. I retorted to him that Medvedev was Putin's lapdog and that doing business with a murderer is never a bright idea, because you can't expect loyality in a contract from a man who kills. By the way with "murderer" I meant the suspicious killings of the Russian reporters and the Russian in London, as these Ukrainian and Georgian troubles hadn't yet appeared.

Putin is good at painting people in a corner and to get them to rely on him. He's like a drug dealer, first you get a good sample and then you're hooked. It is how he managed to rise to power in Russia by doing shabby dealings when he was aide of the mayor of St. Petersburg.

I am however optimistic. The Russian economy is already in a recession, I hope tougher sanctions will push it into a depression. The European politicians shouldn't only look at the fiscal side. What really works to inflame the situation inside Russia is to get food prices up and bring back the breadlines they had in the eighties. Do you know what was the breadbasket of the Soviet Union? It was Ukraine. I will tell you right now, if they can get that to happen, Putin will be out in two years. Trust me there are ways to bring his empire crashing down (pardon the pun).

While Russian opposition is weak, there are such strategic masterminds as Kasparov, who can work to undermine Putin's strength. I am however worried about this. Suppose you manage to get Putin out of office, who will replace him? If you can get a democratic and humane leader, that would be great, all the better, but if you replace Putin with one of those nationalistic racist right-wing homophobic madmen, Russia and the world will be in a worse situation.

Anyhow whatever the European, American, Australian and Asian politicians do, they should do it soon. Now is the best time to get Russia to experience severe liquidity problems and it is also the best time to get food prices up. Russia has experienced droughts and forest fires, so their food reserves are low. Because they've been waging wars their liquidity also isn't in the best shape. Wars are a huge money drain. If they wait, food reserves will be up and liquidity will be less of an issue in winter. The time to strike is this autumn!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by freemehul

actually no it does matter. The difference is in the motive. One is stupidity, the other a lot more inhumane. If it is the latter you have to consider far tougher and more active stance against Putin and his allies.

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The rebels are nutcases that either are unwilling to take the precautions to not shoot down civilian airliners(that's not stupidity, it's maliciousness) or they're doing it on purpose, that's not much of a distinction and they're still nutcases that needs to be stopped.
And the rebels motives doesn't really matter for how we should treat Putin, we(the western world) should have sanctioned Russia back to the middle ages the second they annexed Crimea, the current conflict is just a natural extension because nobody bothered pushing back after Putin took the first step.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by freemehul

what is it with this culpability and international laws on the news? I'm going to quote Pompey here. "Stop quoting laws, we carry swords." If you really think Putin gives a **** about international law, you are sorely mistaken.

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No I don't, if he cared he wouldn't have annexed Crimea.
International law matters because it's essentially what gives us(the western world) the justification to act.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by freemehul

And if you think the relatives and friends care about legal retribution, you are also sorely mistaken. Ask any parent who lost a child and give them two options, where they must choose one of the two proposed options, A) receive money from the murderer as a form of punishment or compensation for their loss (whatever way you want to see it) or B) see the murderer isolated from society so he can pose no further harm to society. I say to you most sensible parents will choose the latter option. No more lawyer prattle please. I'd rather see political action over legal action here. It is far more effective.

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Emotionally distraught people are rarely rational so yeah they'd probably go for the "kill the bastards and their entire extended families" option, if there were a death by torture option they'd check that box too. They want vengeance but vengeance is the antithesis to justice and not something society as a whole should endorse or accept.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by freemehul

Also do these newsanchors seriously believe Russia will ever pay any damages. Heck Putin will admit his complicity when pigs fly. So don't go that road, it leads to nowhere. In this situation "to carry a big stick and speak softly" will get you a lot further, than to yell "because" or to say "Putin needs to man up", since he won't do that. His silence already speaks volume.

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No I don't think anybody seriously thinks that Putin would do any of that, on the other hand before we can act we need to offer him that way out, if he doesn't take it then that's his choice but it's not one we can make for him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by freemehul

Seriously I dont get some of these American newsanchors in particular. Each time they speak of culpability, to me it only shows that they don't give a rats-ass for their fellow American citizen who died there. It may only be one American, but he was a human being too for goodness sake. To me Kerry really is the bigger man here than for example Candy Crowley, she really doesn't get it.

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You can only say that we empathize with the victims so many times. Besides, no matter how much we empathize with them culpability is more interesting in the grand scheme of things because while 1 death may be a tragedy if the US sends the 1st Marine Expeditionary Unit there because they thing the rebels are culpable and needs to be punished it carries a whole lot more ramifications.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BasketCase

I had hoped the EU countries would take another look at their fuel contracts with Russia and perhaps find a way to kick out of them early. I don't think that's going to happen though, as countries have painted themselves into a corner by relying on Putin for so long. Foreign investment is down in Russia, and their economy is basically flat, but that hardly seems like a real punishment. It's hard to admit, but Putin can basically get away with everything with very little backlash. This how tyrants are made.

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The United Kingdom and Germany are already talking with a lot harsher diplomatic language and are talking about sanctions and they were the two biggest reasons that the EU didn't enact sanctions yet. So it's very possible sanctions may happen, especially since it's summer and natural gas is less of an issue, most countries carry a strategical reserve that should get them through much of the winter.

Russia has already made their Anschluss, now is the time to step up and tell them not one step further, not come up with another "peace in our time" speech.

Look I'm not saying international law doesn't matter. I am saying that quoting international law, will not get you very far in this situation when it comes to prevention and taking care of things.



Where there is no justice, I hate to say it, vengeance becomes an effective tool against further injustice. Its not because it is emotional, in such a situation it actually becomes rational to enact realpolitik. There is an evolutionary reason why vengeance exists as an emotion and granted it can be bad, but within limits it can be used to prevent further evil. What you're thus saying, is that any person that has an emotion must be a bad human being. I seriously disagree with that kind of reasoning.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elldallan

You can only say that we empathize with the victims so many times. Besides, no matter how much we empathize with them culpability is more interesting in the grand scheme of things because while 1 death may be a tragedy if the US sends the 1st Marine Expeditionary Unit there because they thing the rebels are culpable and needs to be punished it carries a whole lot more ramifications.

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culpability is entirely ineffective in the grand scheme of things, because as I mentioned before, it gets you nowhere. Also I'm not saying you should send in the marines. I have never said that. Sending in the marines would be utter foolishness. Someone like Bontes for instance who is advocating for this, is a complete fool in my opinion and should not be taken seriously in anything. Rutte for example ignores this man and he's entirely correct in doing so. Never act directly against a person the likes of Putin, you will not gain anything from it.



Look you clearly wish for the guest and host to exchange roles by advocating for a trial. That is strategically unsound here. The strategically sound option is to pilfer a goat. Take of your judges robe here for a second and start thinking like a statesman.

Also consider this. You're optimistic in the sense that Putin will take the way out. You clearly haven't seen the pictures here, where Putin went to the Orthodox church and engaged in prayer. He's hiding, he's not taking the option out. I'm telling you, he will not take that way out, because he doesn't see it. His perception is too narrow for that. Tyrants are blind like that, even when they escape death and be given a second chance, they still won't see it. I think you're way too optimistic here and certainly not realistic.

Look if it were true that he sees that way out and he takes that option out, I would have agreed with you here on this culpability issue, but Putin doesn't see it, therefore he will not take it.