Elf/Heretic

I don't know from others but Elf/Heretic seems pretty awesome to me. I intend to run it as an A/M/t.

For personal reference, this may become a longerish post.

Elf
+35% WPA
+15% Tower Efficiency
+1 Defensive Specialist Strength

Spell book: Mage's Fury, Chastity, Inspire Army
Elite: 7/6, 700gc, 8.5 NW

Heretic
Wizards do not die on failed spells
Reduced thief losses on failed operations (-66%)
+30% Magic and Thievery Science Effectiveness
Spell and Operation Damage +15%
+1 Mana
Access to Blizzard and Revelation
Starts with +200 Wizards and +400 thieves

There are several pros to this combo. First and foremost how they compliment each other with their wpa bonuses. Elf has +35% wpa, I'll use a hypothetical science rating to show how easily this prov can shoot up in wpa. Say after your Heretic bonus, you have +50% wpa from channelling, the result of the combo's bonus will be 2.025 (1.35 × 1.5 = 2.025) this means the mod wpa is +202.5%. Last time I checked getting +50% in channeling doesn't take all that much effort even without the science modifer of heretic.

Needless to say, the combo will easily generate insanely high wpa mods. The player can apply this in many ways. For my purposes, I'm going to use it to maintain 6-8+ mod wpa while maintaining a moderately low 3-4 raw wpa. I could get it as high as most T/M's by late age.

As for thieving, the Heretic persona, by itself helps your prov to manage all three roles. This is due mostly to how the Heretic's bonuses in interacts with thief dens. Both of which effictively raise mod tpa and diminish theif loses on ops. With a mere 5-10% thief dens the Elf/Heretic can effectively rob *(see section on A/t/m for more on this point). If some uses this combo I advice run a minimum 2-3 tpa. Heretic only has basic thief ops but robbery goes a long way in and out of war.

As an attacker being able to effectively run low raw wpa and tpa will allow the player to train more military than other A/t/m combos. A rather elusive role for most combos imo. I should be able to muster at least a 72% draft target with this combo*(see section on effiency principle). The general military break down will be 8.5 dspa with the rest being 700 gc 7/6 elites, and theives of course.

Oh boy, told you this maybe a long one. A couple more pros- 1) no penalties is in and of itself a bonus, 2) starting bonus makes it easy to get 2 raw tpa by oop, 3) Heretic's spell damage, mana regeneration, and Elf's tower bonus will make for a super effective FB runner 4) the spell-book beautiful even without MS.

The effeciency principle- I think by now dear reader you get an idea of what I'm about to say. The key to running this the way I want to is the effeciency of running low raw numbers with super high modifiers allows you to maintain a large overall military and still run ops like a champ.

On A/t/m- A/t/m can be frustrating even to the most grizzled veterans of Utopia. Were it not for the before mentioned "effeciency principle" this combo has I doubt I would run it at all. I've only seen a few nonsage combos (in the 40+ ages I've roamed Utopia). To be able to run A/t/m effectively in all three roles you'll usually want a densely populated province and some kind of way to eliminate a few buildings yet manage the key buildings for all three roles. You may need to forgo a few options in more than one field. In short, A/t/m requires an astute building strat and is in no way advisable to new/newer players.

I have some solutions I think to the issues inherent in the triple role prov. I may come back later and talk about the building strategy I'm still chewing on.

Before I wrap this up, I want to touch on the few cons- 1) nonmystic A/t/m will take time to generate raw wpa to meet the 3-4+ wpa goals (this means most of the age you'll have to run high guild percentages in a build strat which will require a lot of pinching and forgoing of buildings), 2) Elf's raw military numbers leave a lot to be desired, 3) if you want population beyond the maximum science bonuses you'll want to run heavy homes.

To sum up, this should be an interesting age!

Thing is what good is all that wpa? No nm or ms. So your stuck with fireballs, tornados and landlust. But it would be a fun solo province but I don't see it working in a legit kingdom.

:)

Wpa determines your magic defense. On top of that fireball is the single most important spell in the game.

If kingdoms don't realize that it's their bad. Yes spreading MS is important but 24/7 MS doesn't have as much of an effect as you might think. Takes a long time to chip away an army with MS alone.

Lack of nightmares is somewhat disconcerting but whatever. NM has its own uses: its good for softening a target heading into a chain.

What is a "legit" kingdom anyhow?

Not sure how it will fare in your KD setup, but enjoyed playing it a few ages ago, especially as a group. It actually turned out to be one of the best ages I've had as an Elf/Heretic.
Maybe a bit more vulnerable now with dpa, but it should still be a 'fun' age nonetheless. Personally I would have leaned more on war hero for this age.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aslan

Not sure how it will fare in your KD setup, but enjoyed playing it a few ages ago, especially as a group. It actually turned out to be one of the best ages I've had as an Elf/Heretic.
Maybe a bit more vulnerable now with dpa, but it should still be a 'fun' age nonetheless. Personally I would have leaned more on war hero for this age.

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Elf/War Hero - Looks pretty good as an A/M.

Just so you all know. I'm not selling anything here. I'm a very free play kind of guy. I just once in a while feel compelled to talk strategy and this is one avenue to do so (and to a much larger audience no less). Anyhow all crisisms are welcome some are just more appreciated than others. And I tend to retort.

I am not saying elf is bad, elf rogue would be my pick if I went solo. Legit kingdoms have a pre age strategy, dark elf has nm which most kingdoms covet over fireball. Where not running any elfs this age because faeries have higher defense and have more uses. Just saying if I had to pick between a rogue vs heretic, I pick rogue every time. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coldhearted

I am not saying elf is bad, elf rogue would be my pick if I went solo. Legit kingdoms have a pre age strategy, dark elf has nm which most kingdoms covet over fireball. Where not running any elfs this age because faeries have higher defense and have more uses. Just saying if I had to pick between a rogue vs heretic, I pick rogue every time. ;)

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I recently took a nasty hit from nightmares. There is a cost effeciency thing.

Point taken on legit kingdoms. And well said. For my part, I do try to get the ghettos I hop into to organize with varying degrees of success.

A thief can be my poison with this strat but I will be thick against ops. Unless I get fat in which case, well I'm sure you know. Bear in mind I should be able to run ops as well.

Versatility is a strong suite of the combo. I mean, if I run this right, it's going to be capable of A/M/t.

Personally I think pala > sage > heretic for an elf a/m/t. Pala has some very strong spells + -losses which makes him strong in defence(like the old elf) and plague immunity which is important because you are attacking. Sage sci bonus is very nice together with Amnesia. Heretic only provides bonus spell/op dmg and +1 mana(I'm not sure how good blizz is - when i was playing rogue I was ignoring it). I don't find that viable enough to be worth picking it over other options.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bo To

Personally I think pala > sage > heretic for an elf a/m/t. Pala has some very strong spells + -losses which makes him strong in defence(like the old elf) and plague immunity which is important because you are attacking. Sage sci bonus is very nice together with Amnesia. Heretic only provides bonus spell/op dmg and +1 mana(I'm not sure how good blizz is - when i was playing rogue I was ignoring it). I don't find that viable enough to be worth picking it over other options.

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Those are all good points. Elf/Sage may be, objectively speaking, better to run A/t/m from. Heretic does have a few advantages over it too. For example- they virtually eliminate the need for thief dens. The combo is generally running as it should but it has some glaring weakenesses.

The issue I'm having with it is based on the tri-role strategy but you'd have that issue with Sage as well.

Palla / Elf sounds nice Bo. FB is indeed strong. The problem is sustaining runes through the war to cast it enough times. I speculate you max production sci first.

Hi im an experienced attacker trying the tm side looking for a good dark elf heretic build maybe more thief i seem to need 15% homes 10% farms and banks 8 % aŕms dificulty maintaining 3.5 wpa with like 20% guilds i have an issue losing a lot of wizz early too. Stealing runes type deal and whats a good dpa specs only i have at least 5 or 6 tpa? Should i be using my elites to do the dirty work? 15% td and towers havr been suggested along with dropping banks or arms im cyrrently at 25% guilds barely holdinv on to wizzies. I had troubles vs arson last war too

Hi,
Firstly, you mentioned (in your other thread) you are playing a hybrid. You have also referred to your tpa and wpa, so I'm taking that to mean you are trying to run a/t/m. If so, that is a hard combo to choose. With the wpa and tpa you have mentioned, if you want a good defence then your offence will be low.

On your build, if you are having problems being opped, then I'd add WTs. I wouldn't have arms in war. Generally people would pump wpa outside of war so you wouldn't need to try to maintain 3.5 wpa with 20% guilds. Instead, you'd run much higher guilds at some point to get the wpa you want, then switch down to, say, 20% guilds for war. I would normally run TDs as a/t/m (or as t/m) but given you are heretic i'm not sure if it's worth it as you already have reduced losses - someone else can comment on that.

I would use elites for defense rather than def specs given that you are dark elf.

The triple combo is just coming naturally the thieves are mostly stealing runes and gc but is stronger than my wizzies which again i lost a lot early somehow laat war and have been having troyble pumping them in between. How can i go more specifically into am or at instead given thd circumstance and thanks for the reply

5 or 6 raw tpa is quite a lot to be stealing runes and gc. Personally, when I run a/t/m, I'd run more like 3-4 raw tpa, 4 raw wpa and that gives me enough space to also have a decent army (depending on the race set up etc, this age is not in my view one of the strongest ages to run a/t/m). Having good sciences would be important to make that work well.

However my numbers aren't the only way to do it, and how you set it up depends largely on what you want to be able to do with your offence. If you only plan on finishing chains or hitting low def provs, then what you have can work as you don't need a very high offence. So a large part depends how your set up will fit in with your KD strategy.

Given that you are heretic (with bonuses to thievery and magic) it does make sense to try to use both thievery and magic, so I wouldn't necessarily say give up on a/t/m entirely.

But if you want to run a/t or a/m then just reduce the thieves or wizards accordingly. Personally at a/t I still wouldn't normally run as high as 5 or 6 raw tpa, but some people would so I wouldn't say it's wrong (nb I would personally use TDs though so that boosts my mod tpa). Remember though you only need enough tpa to do what you want to do with it. So if you are planning to op enemy attackers, then you only need to be able to beat their tpa by enough to allow you to do that.

In practice, some of the decision may be made for you. For example if you lose more wizards in the next war, you might need to go a/t for a while whilst you re-gain wpa.

There is no wrong choice in personalty, it is all about how you use your freaking resources as a kingdom on a whole. The monarch/steward needs manages the resources on hand in the most efficient manner possible.
If they miss appropriate it, then it is less than efficient which makes the viewpoint of the personality sucks balls... which isn't true, it only means they don't know how to use that resource properly.
On a note a hybrid role is harder to handle with due to the fact they are not a straight role. So builds/targets/options can be different from straight roles, which the player and the monarch needs to realize being 99% of builds/playstyles are straight roles.

Going on that thought process:
In the case of a Heretic with stealth you should be doing Riots, then NS/Arson/Stealing with remaining Stealth (unless your on permanent Riot duty, which I do recommend being you have reduced losses)....... that frees up rogues stealth to do Prop/NS/AW/GArson/etc. Let the attackers get intel and steal from easy targets.

A heretic with mana (especially an Elf Heretic), you can be doing Blizzards/Greed/Storms/Droughts/Chasity/Explosions (need a static options from monarch being you have limited mana/runes)... that frees up the mystics mana which have a dmg bonus do FB/Nados/ExposeThieves/etc. Need to also figure in what attackers should do when chained too.

Ok i like what im hearing how about my buildings? there is an issue with me accessing upoopu for intel knowing who to steal from. How can i recognize a target to steal from before trying to gather the intel myself if i must? Id like to try orc rogue next age..... and remember im currently dark elf not regular with heretic.


As for my kingdom im having tr1oubles being war ready by eowcf its a new concept involving mills

I commented on your build in my original post responding to you - see post #15.

Utopia has in-built espionage info from a link on the enemy kd page. It's not great but will show you who has stuff to steal (if your KD has taken the intel recently).

I suggest you wait to see the age changes before you think about next age.

Unless you are exploring *a lot* in the EOWCF, I wouldn't use mills. Even if you are exploring a lot, I'm not sure I would use them (and if you are having trouble being ready you probably shouldn't explore that much in future unless your KD is going to help you).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by olAllan

I don't know from others but Elf/Heretic seems pretty awesome to me. I intend to run it as an A/M/t.

For personal reference, this may become a longerish post.

Elf
+35% WPA
+15% Tower Efficiency
+1 Defensive Specialist Strength

Spell book: Mage's Fury, Chastity, Inspire Army
Elite: 7/6, 700gc, 8.5 NW

Heretic
Wizards do not die on failed spells
Reduced thief losses on failed operations (-66%)
+30% Magic and Thievery Science Effectiveness
Spell and Operation Damage +15%
+1 Mana
Access to Blizzard and Revelation
Starts with +200 Wizards and +400 thieves

There are several pros to this combo. First and foremost how they compliment each other with their wpa bonuses. Elf has +35% wpa, I'll use a hypothetical science rating to show how easily this prov can shoot up in wpa. Say after your Heretic bonus, you have +50% wpa from channelling, the result of the combo's bonus will be 2.025 (1.35 × 1.5 = 2.025) this means the mod wpa is +202.5%. Last time I checked getting +50% in channeling doesn't take all that much effort even without the science modifer of heretic.

Needless to say, the combo will easily generate insanely high wpa mods. The player can apply this in many ways. For my purposes, I'm going to use it to maintain 6-8+ mod wpa while maintaining a moderately low 3-4 raw wpa. I could get it as high as most T/M's by late age.

As for thieving, the Heretic persona, by itself helps your prov to manage all three roles. This is due mostly to how the Heretic's bonuses in interacts with thief dens. Both of which effictively raise mod tpa and diminish theif loses on ops. With a mere 5-10% thief dens the Elf/Heretic can effectively rob *(see section on A/t/m for more on this point). If some uses this combo I advice run a minimum 2-3 tpa. Heretic only has basic thief ops but robbery goes a long way in and out of war.

As an attacker being able to effectively run low raw wpa and tpa will allow the player to train more military than other A/t/m combos. A rather elusive role for most combos imo. I should be able to muster at least a 72% draft target with this combo*(see section on effiency principle). The general military break down will be 8.5 dspa with the rest being 700 gc 7/6 elites, and theives of course.

Oh boy, told you this maybe a long one. A couple more pros- 1) no penalties is in and of itself a bonus, 2) starting bonus makes it easy to get 2 raw tpa by oop, 3) Heretic's spell damage, mana regeneration, and Elf's tower bonus will make for a super effective FB runner 4) the spell-book beautiful even without MS.

The effeciency principle- I think by now dear reader you get an idea of what I'm about to say. The key to running this the way I want to is the effeciency of running low raw numbers with super high modifiers allows you to maintain a large overall military and still run ops like a champ.

On A/t/m- A/t/m can be frustrating even to the most grizzled veterans of Utopia. Were it not for the before mentioned "effeciency principle" this combo has I doubt I would run it at all. I've only seen a few nonsage combos (in the 40+ ages I've roamed Utopia). To be able to run A/t/m effectively in all three roles you'll usually want a densely populated province and some kind of way to eliminate a few buildings yet manage the key buildings for all three roles. You may need to forgo a few options in more than one field. In short, A/t/m requires an astute building strat and is in no way advisable to new/newer players.

I have some solutions I think to the issues inherent in the triple role prov. I may come back later and talk about the building strategy I'm still chewing on.

Before I wrap this up, I want to touch on the few cons- 1) nonmystic A/t/m will take time to generate raw wpa to meet the 3-4+ wpa goals (this means most of the age you'll have to run high guild percentages in a build strat which will require a lot of pinching and forgoing of buildings), 2) Elf's raw military numbers leave a lot to be desired, 3) if you want population beyond the maximum science bonuses you'll want to run heavy homes.

To sum up, this should be an interesting age!

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Might work at a more ghetto level but you're going to have to start walking the straight and narrow once you come up against more organised opposition. Assuming, you run only enough sendable offense to semi-finish chains, hit low def provs, you're safe from massacres for a start. The biggest problem as you stated is penny pinching on buildings, i.e. you're probably not going to run much WTs. That leaves you vulnerable to an MV of your CS, followed up by a AW run from 3-4 rogues cutting your rWPA in half.

However, your combo could still work at higher levels being a jack of all trades if you focus on a purely support role and take on the burden of maintaining riots, greed 24/7, MVing NB off the next chain target and getting droughts on, that sort of thing.

How much td should we run for darkelf herectic ? Being a,t,m