On this thread I will share, with anyone, my opinion on any strategy subject or question asked by anyone. Its like the ask realest thread but with better information and no ego inflating, so have a question? shoot.
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On this thread I will share, with anyone, my opinion on any strategy subject or question asked by anyone. Its like the ask realest thread but with better information and no ego inflating, so have a question? shoot.
Why do you always like dwarfs so much?
What's the most important early science for early warring?
In age 59 create the ultimate 24 province warring kingdom.
Tell us the mix of race/personality combo and a little about why your choice of each.
Ie.
5 halfer rogue
5 Orc warrior
Etc...
The main goal is to crown ww
Avians are slightly better right away in a fight. But at the later stages avian has a strong SWEA/Simians potential from last age, in such that you can win the first war but even with the war win are screwed because you spend 50% of your EoW econ on razing and rebuilding, and then are screwed if the dwarf kingdom comes around for round #2. So we added that with a heavy attacker setup in which its virtually impossible to lose land in round #1, and its a good combination.
Well depends how early. Magic OOP since you can't really chain someone's troops away and people are on 10+ peasants per acre so economy is more important than in later wars, when everyone is on barely breakeven income or negative. Stronger guilds + mag sci will win early wars, but you have to run heavy towers cause of the rune cost formula.
By week 1, generally the kingdom that snuck in higher TPA, and thus thief sci are pretty important. Most of the early free waves are when one kd is on 2 TPA and the other .5.
3 halfling war hero, sapphire is the main dragon to be used and being immune to it lets you riot/rob other heavy thief provs the best, no more doubly effective TDs on rogues so this will have the highest pure TPA.
8 faery mystics - number sounds about right, primarily MS duty on other halfers and some nightmares and Fools gold/fireball. Has clear sight and 5 pt def, gonna be your best mystic.
14 halfling rogue - Can propaganda destroy off/def of any of the core races. has 4/4 units so fairly immune to chaining and with +10% pop not too bad militarily vs attacking cores. Can kill enemy mystics with this sheer number, both sides shred eachothers attackers, whoever kills eachother's halflings the best win, and you've got 8 mystics to ensure MS does its part.
Orc lost its leet creds so isn't terribly viable, and dwarf/avians offenses can be contained with NS and undead lost CS. Setup should be able to kill everything but halfers fairly easily, and you can actually take a halfer down with NM'ing thieves away + NS to secure the WW at the end.
That's the best warring kingdom, probably going to be hard to find wars with that setup, however.
What would be your preferred setup for a 3v3 setting in a vacuum with these conditions: The kd has 3k acres pool total. no prov can be smaller than 400 acres. Current age race/pers changes. They will not engage until yr 1, yr 4, or yr 8.
Alternatively, same question with 5k acres.
from ghetto point of view , avian,orc,undead/cleric mix core kdm v/s orc warrior core kdm , same number of attackers on both sides
cleric kdm - how would you set up your attackers off. / def. against these over powered orc warriors and how to go about taking them down a.k.a. semi chains or hard chaining
also what would be the most effective dragon to begin your war, unsure if taking a more defensive or more offensive approach ,which do you feel would be best against these overpowered beasts.
Great thread Flogger. Keep it running.
Elf Mage Attacker.
Looking for a build that allows MS cast + the ability to attack the low defense, retal and ambush in war.
How does this war build strike you?
5% Farms (steal food when needed)
16% Banks
12% TGs
8% Rax
10%GS
12% Guilds (after wizard pump is done)
12% towers (I have no idea)
23% Wts (too much?)
2% dungeons
Thanks
- How can you be twice as good as realest but have less then half the ego?
- You made a post about the BB Havoc conflict last age where you were discussing the mechanics of the cow fight and pointed to the ratio of Ospecs to elites as being a reason BB was winning. How does this affect it? Is it the rate at which elites die compared to ospecs even though the specs had +1 offense?
- I play in a lower tier kingdom and we often run into very attacker heavy kingdoms with 75:25 O:D provinces. What do you think is a good way to fight this typical low tier strategy?
First, Thank you for starting this valuable thread flogger.
About intel gathering: in war, with what regularity is sot, som, sn, survey prudent?
Which do you think is stronger this age, Avian cleric or Orc warrior? Why?
So I'd start off with this math. Standard attacking build is something like 10 EPA and 8 DSPA.
So the orc starts off with: 77 OPA and 32 DPA. The avian 60 OPA and 32 DPA. Lets pit them against eachother in a 1 on 1 battle, which doesn't take into account chaining.
Lets assume that both can 2x eachother but can't 3x eachother to start. Orc is close to opening with 3x'ing, so that might blow this comparison out of the water, but in reality it likely doesn't since I would imagine avian with its cheaper troops (and being cleric) and more flexibility with building in EoW probably has slightly more military than the orc.
So go in Excel:
Column 1: Orc offense = 77 Column 2 Orc defense = 32. Column 3 Avian offense = 60, Column 4 Avian defense = 32. Column 5 is Column 1/4 = 2.41. Column 6 is 3/2 = 1.88. So the orc can 2.41x the avian and the avian can 1.88x the orc. In reality people run TGs more than forts so both of these numbers will be higher, and in reality its much more likely orc is like 9 EPA and 7.5 DSPA compared to avian 9.5 EPA and 8, etc. But lets go through the exercise anyways.
Then make these formulas below the numbers above, assumes 5% troop kills for non-cleric and 2.5% troop kills for cleric and both sides 2x'ing
Column 1 Row 2 = 77*.95 = 73.15 orc offense left after first wave
Column 2 Row 2 = 32*.95^2 = 28.88 defense left after first wave getting hit twice
Column 3 Row 2 = 60*.975= 58.5 avian offense left after first wave
Column 3 Row 2 = 32*(1-.025*1.15)^2 (to account for orc kill bonus) = 30.19 defense left after getting hit twice.
Then after the first wave the ratios went from 2.41 and 1.88 to 2.42 and 2.03. Drag it down and you'll see that by the 4th wave, the avian outpaces the orc, where the avian can hit the orc 2.55 to the orcs 2.48. It only goes down after that.
The standard war kd setup will have 10 or more support TM provinces that aren't hitting. So in the scenario where the Avian kingdom initially hostiles the orc kingdom, the Avian is hitting the orc all home to start, killing offense. If the avian can only 1x, that turns the tide so that it only takes 3 waves for the avian to outpace the orc. If the avian can 2x on the orc turtled, that turns the tide after just 2 rounds of hits.
In the event the orc kingdom waves the avian kingdom, its clear the avian kingdom can just drag out hostile for 3-4 waves and basically enter war already having a clear military advantage, despite the orc being +10% in war and having 1 point higher elite. That's a good situation to be in. So the avian can open on the orc and do alright, but if the orc gives the button to the avian, it's in pretty big trouble. Orc will run some hospitals, but as you will see below, 15% hosps and 64% BE is only about -25% savings.
So militarily I like the avian from a numbers standpoint, I think its easier with cleric to fight back to back wars as your elite count stays higher, and it seems as if an orc kingdom waved my avian cleric kingdom, the avian kingdom would win simply by dragging out hostile.
So lets compare the rest of the bonuses, namely -30% attack time for avian and +30% gains and 1 general for orc.
A standard orc war build will be something like 10% guilds 4% towers 15% rax 15% tgs 15% gs 14% WTs 15% hospitals 1% dungeons 10% farms. This will give the orc 11.26 hour war attack time vs an avian on no barracks less than 9 hour attack time. Take the 11.26/1.3 for gains and you get the orc on roughly 8.66 equivalent attack time. So orc has the benefit of one extra general.
Is that extra general worth the 30% buildspace avian saves by not having 15% rax and hosps? I'd say no. The avian with that extra buildspace can make forts, can go homes to fit more military, or can go really heavy banks to actually afford much higher wages, and likely higher GS/tgs/WTs or some combination of the 6.
And lastly, I'd pick avian because a perfectly played avian can kill an orc fairly easily by using its attack time. Introduce chaining in the mix, chain the orc's dspecs away, and ninja 20x its offense once its home is the only true way to prevent either side from 4-5x'ing eachother.
I like orc cleric much better than orc warrior. It allows the orc military to keep up with the avian military, it already starts stronger, and that allows it to keep hitting enemy support provinces much easier and often, which is really the key to the wars at those size, being able to hit the unbreakables.
Surveys I just get in hostile, and i'll get a few throughout the war if I think their setup is one that could be terribly flexible. Mostly probably looking for people switching into watchtowers if they had none previously.
Snatch news is useful to try and gauge who is getting fed if your enemy has people close to being unbreakable, but SoT and TB tracking can negate this.
I ask for a full SoT run on my enemy a couple times a day, makes it easier to assign targets if all intel is updated.
I ask for a SoM on a province the second it sends all its armies out.
If you only had 2 crowns and one of them was gotten through trinity, you'd be a little self conscious too.
I think you are mistaking the cow fight and the core fight. With humans, the worst thing that can happen is you get chained with all 5/0 troops out and no elites out on attack. If you have a mix of elites and ospecs out on attack, you'll always be left with some defense. I made a reference to havoc's core running too high of ospecs being a bad thing, and making my chain calculator figuratively jizz in its circuits.
Easiest way to kill really high offense, no defense provinces is to allow them to get peasants, and then chain them right before their armies return. If someone has 6 peasants per acre to start, and loses 80% of its land, it has 25 peasants left and no room left for its offense. If they're not high on peasants, I'd hope they had low defensive elite values and do what I suggested on orcs in 2 posts above.
In and of itself, an elf mage attacker doesn't exist 1 on 1. To cast MS you need to have 3x their mod WPA, which is hard to do and keep up with miltary units. If you want to run elf mage attackers, have your kingdom run 15-18 of them so you don't have to "protect" yourself and complimented by halfer rogues to AW before nightmaring.
As for the build, WTs is probably right, you'll need way more towers ((Land*.68)+680)*2.6 is your rune cost for MS, to cast 1-2 every tick is very difficult, and you need to be large sizes.
The rest of the build all seems right, although at larger sizes most people find a way to skip banks in their war build.
Most of the beginning was addressed in the avian cleric/orc warrior response. Sapphire dragons are almost always the way to go in war, they're just so strong, unless you have enough gold lying around to open with like a Ruby or something to hit enemy TMs, then replace with sapphire. I'd try and have the orc warrior kingdom wave you and drag out hostile, or open 2x them turtled to neutralize the military advantage.
Everything would have a counter strategy, whatever you say you start the lower 2 at, (Say you picked 3400a, 400a, 400a) the other guy would pick 3000a, 600a, 600a, etc, to kill the bottom two and then provide support for the big. Likely dwarf rogue and abuse BE and TDs in every scenario with most of the acres going towards the bank, with bottom provs being mystics.
You'd be doing alot of nightmaring and keeping 70 DPA home while 4x'ing them. Orc can't possibly prevent that vs this setup. We ran an elf rogue kd about 5 ages back and fought a fight vs an orc kingdom. We were ranked 1/2 at the time. Our open war wave, without any hostile period and prepping for ops was 92 hits, so 8 short of perfect, the orcs were on about 5 DPA after we were done with nightmare/NS.
that makes sense. a helluva lot of coordination tho!
orc or undead as attacker core?
thoughts on massacres as viable war strategy vs orc kd's ?
hypthetical scenario
Your bank is dwarf (or any other race but faery, i leave that out because of the 5 def) the rest of your kd is anything you like but orcs.
My bank is halfer or faery and have a core of orcs in kd.
Your spies in my irc channel tell you that i decided to hit you. If you are dwarf you can hit fort and with builders boon you have 11 hours to switch buildings.
If i need to switch buildings and have gold saved i can do it in 8-9 hours.
Also if my orcs are at 60% DR in 11 hours just by casting pat the can push their DR to 68%
If they run 65% they can push to 72%
Thats 7% of the pop of each province. If i add agression the solds are 2/0 or 3/0 for halfer and if ican add mercs that is 2.2/0 and 3.2/0
Especially in the halfer case that has 10% bonus and with even some minor science (3-4%) i can overpopulate up to 15% more and be able to attack. Thats almost 33 ppa which is huge for bank.
My question is do you see a way to counter that or how much bigger should you be in order to be safe (my questimate is 30% land or more) do you agree with that.
Using a 10,000 acre bank with 10% pop science and 10% halfer bonus, I get its maxpop as being 302k. 15% over that is 45,375 soldiers it can take without overpop. times 3*1.15*1.076*1.09 = 195k offense, or about 18 more OPA, not the 33 OPA you quote. Halfer is about 18 OPA short compared with dwarf naturally, so all this does is essentially make the 2 races even for one round of hits, and losing all of your peasants to the point where you likely cannot afford wages. In addition, when you get retalled, you've just really overpopulated yourself and cost you a lot of thieves and elites. If you can be either nightstriked or nightmared, the enemy can kill the soldiers as well.
The counter would be to also just overpopulate your bank to start off with better units.
However, the idea does have some potential if you can make it unbreakable somehow.
What would be the best way to take out a big unbreakable halfling? 1700 acres vs our top at 1000 acres, full elite army, medium wpa/tpa?
If its only 1 halfling on 1700a there should be no problems.
Some more factors i just like to point out.
Fireball it down to keep it without econ and greed+storms on top of that MS.
Can spread your generals to bounce it down and eventually even conquest it down.
Make sure PF and well BG is active when you do. Emerald on top of that and use core attackers with other mods to increase the casualties for the halfling.
It can be a problem if they got 2-3 halflings like that and take a lot of extra time. But 1 halfling alone should not be all that hard if you explore all the alternatives you have to bring him down.
Sry if i post in this thread that belongs to you Flogger. I just wanted to pick out the obvious.
By all means MS+NM+Torn it also so it becomes in range before you able to break him.
Overpop works much better if they have tons of pessies but i would not want to leave a 1700a halfling on lots of pessies to make it even harder to bring it down. Id do both torns+FB.
Furthermore the base gain for conquest is decent in war and will put the damage where it belongs to take him down slowly but safely.
The only thing i see as a problem is if its a 1 vs 1 fight, but thats very unlikely and then the halfling will win. =P
Over and out
flogger
The 33 was pop per acre not opa. The whole point of that example was that orc free draft is completely broken, maybe i focused too much on halfers.
The defense banks need is relative to the next province that can threaten them. So if a bank is safe with 40% DR for example the second in size would be with 50% (to compansate size differense). Now if second province can push to 80+% DR within a matter of hours and not even having a specific built it changes balances completely. Same thing applies for fast thief pumps.
The 2 races that can benefit most from that are halfers (huge advantages) and faeries secondary.
free draft could certainly be taken advantage of by a well organized kingdom. However the enemy has the option of playing a peasant control game on orcs.
Hey,so I got a question too.
War situation ,enemy kd has a feary/cleric UB ,low drafted,funding dragons etc...Our t/ms are chained and way off range,do you see bounces/conquests a viable way to bring him down ?
taking down orc/merchant kingdom?
Sent an Emerald Dragon put up usual ops (drought,greed,riots and ms). They killed it within 2 hours. Sent a gold killed it within 2 hours. Running 23-28% gs.
Tried deep chain. Gains were limited to 16 acres, 22 acres, 34 acres, while their gains were 60-70-80 acres.
on magic ops like fireball, NW difference does not play a huge role. NW difference plays a much larger role in thievery and really hard magic ops like MV/MS. Fireballing someone 3-4x larger than you is quite easy, and if they are chaining your thief mages without following them up with massacres, your thief mages should have quite the large WPA advantage.
The key to chaining is determining whether you have the networth range to finish it, and what you are looking to accomplish. If the province has 400 acres incoming, chaining it to 200 acres does you little good, UNLESS your goal would be to take all of its defense.
To take all of its defense, you have to make sure that you are chaining shortly after they hit, if they have a lot of land incoming, chaining someone who returns soon is basically just a completely wasted wave. Orc merchant isn't cleric, so should lose alot of troops to hits. Assuming you can organize your kingdom to be hyper active and the target you are chaining isn't hyper active, I would chain it right after it sends out, take all of its defense away, and keep enough spare armies for when his armies return, and then 20x bottomfeed him with spare armies when all he has left is 7/1 troops turtled.
A pro strat would be making sure to rob his gold 10 seconds before the tick his armies return, that way he can't pay wages and even if he is online, he cannot send out and you can commence with 20x'ing him turtled to kill off his offense.
Chaining early in the age when everyone has .5 WPA is completely different than chaining later in the age when everyone has 3 WPA and 3 TPA to overpopulate military.
Its hard to come up with general chaining guidelines without knowing at what point in the age it is, and knowing what sort of WPA (which you can't release) your enemy has. Chaining someone with 3 WPA is much more effective than chaining someone with .5, and that's mostly the difference between early age and late age, so you have a different war strategy early (you care more about econ) than late (when no one has econ)
i have really appreciated this thread by its numbers..... but its really not viable facing a top warring kd... u have already stated that every strat has a counter.. and i agree 100%. your setups and ideas have been very number limited based not execution... your numbers u stat dont mean anything if a x factor is being thrown into it...