Potential changes thread can be found here. Please remember to comment constructively and bear in mind that numbers are easily tweaked, core concept feedback is more what we need.
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Potential changes thread can be found here. Please remember to comment constructively and bear in mind that numbers are easily tweaked, core concept feedback is more what we need.
- 20% battle gains on humans. Is that same effect as guard stations, otherwise its spaced like its a penalty but doesn't make sense to have minus gains pen on an attacking race
Avian - prolly too strong
Dwarf - Is what is it.
Elf - meh
Faery - strong
Halfling - I think +50% TPA is a little much
Humans - -20% Gains is too much.
Orc - is what it is
Undead - is what it is
Merchant - meh. Even with ToG
Sage - is what it is
Rogue - is what it is
Mystic - is what it is
Warrior - meh, wouldn't pick it for anything really
Tact - Continues to devalue Avian
Cleric - still what I'd pick
War Hero - Still incredibly useless
The changes appear to have toned down a lot of things except for OME.
Human +20% and Warrior +20%...that's a LOT of OME @_@
Human elites are basically 7.2/3 with just their racial OME boost. This is fine IMO, kinda fun!
Overall I really like the changes. I'd like to see "new" things at some point, but I'd say this is a much more balanced age than the previous age. Faery looks mega fun with the +1mana/stealth. Halflings...weird but cool. Might actually see some halfling clerics?? :p Will be back for a more comprehensive review, but I think the changes are pretty good.
Avian - Very Strong
Dwarf - About as always
Elf - Boring but about right.
Faery - Improved over last age. Strong.
Halfling - Can be an attacking race now. Strong
Humans - Penalty is too much -10% gains would be better.
Orc - Science hit is too strong -15%?
Undead - Strong.
Merchant - very Meh... Add +5% income or something.
Sage - Strong choice
Rogue - as always
Mystic - as always
Warrior - Not inspiring.
Tact - Go to attacking personality
Cleric - Strong Choice
War Hero - You guys have got to add something to make this remotely a reasonable choice. Make their dragon attacks do X2 the damage to the dragon or something.
Making ToG no longer racial is awesome. Still would like to see CS go to personality only.
Avian looks playable. Ambush immunity changes dynamics.
Faery looks much better especially without ToG. But I am sad to see the stealth/mana bonuses gone from other races.
Elf needs something more. Invisibility is a gesture in the right direction but it's still out-pizzazzed. At a minimum give it the defensive casualty bonus back, but I'd prefer to see something else.
Halfling strong but with defensive challenge like the good old days. Maybe consider TW or GP or something along those lines, even if it means nerfing the TPA bonus or making the elite 400gc or something.
Human is weird again now. Not sure what to think about it.
Mystic gets plus mana even out of war now?
With the OME generosity this age, it might be worth considering more generously distributing defensive boons like GP.
Avian is strong, but keep in mind that not all plp will make use of attacking times. As plp usually shy away from it. So avian can be a bit stronger than usual. Opposite from Hummies or UD if they are too strong.
I like changes, much better than this age. With OP Humans and Faeries.
Halfers need a def tweak. What would giving them +1 def spec do to the dynamics?
Suggestions:
Avian:
remove attack time bonus (Great in theory but would take really that 0.01% niche to utilize that bonus to the fullest)
reintroduce Fog: Set it as +1 extra hour, and viewable with SoTs, Msg like, "A dense fog covers the area"
Give Fog to Avian, Dwarves, Elves
Avian is immune to Fog.
Dwarves:
Reduce elite NW. At least match Human Elites.
Give Fog
Elves:
Reduce elite NW.
Give Fog
Reintroduce defensive military losses bonus
Swap Invis with Mage's Fury. (I realize you may want to make Elves and Halfers more t/ms but they just can't match up with a faery t/m with the current tweaks.) Let them go hybirds instead.
Faeries:
Strong - I think it is fine
Halflings: Swap Mage's Fury with Invis
Orcs: Reduce science penalty to -15% and drop elite NW down.
UD: Okay as is.
Quick Question.. is ToG now a spell only for Mechants?
I noticed the lost of ToG.
Don't know why people think Avian is too strong, it's still not viable over other attacking options.
It's disappointing that the strongest personality (sage) once again doesn't get nerfed.
Also, the elf/fae changes don't quite work. Fae is still a better mystic option. You trade 10% WPA (because fae gets MF vs the elf 30% racial) for FOK, CS, +1 mana/tick, +1 stealth/tick, +20% spell damage, +20% thievery damage, and +20% spell duration.
Out of all the tweaks, Elves are looking rather weak now and I agree that they need something more than Invisibility.
Realistically, giving them Amnesia back would make them more playable as a t/m.
Avian can finally compete with the other attackers.
Dwarf is fine
Elf is meh, its nice it has the wpa bonus again but they are still lacking something. As mentioned earlier having defensive losses would better.
Faery is pretty strong. Now they don't have tog but they probably better off in this tradeoff, maybe bump up the leets to 700 and tweak extra damage to 15% as they get extra ops from +1 man/stealth
Halfer is interesting again I like it
Human was OP this age and I think this is a interesting trade off. The -20% is fair considering the bonuses they get.
Orc finally took a nerf.. sad to see but they were pretty strong for awhile. The leets are expensive drop to 700.
UD is fine
Merchant is fine now that its the only way you can get ToG
Sage is fine
Rouge is fine
Mystic is fine, but please make them immune to self exploding spells
Warrior is okay, the loss of a general is pretty huge but the OME does somewhat make up for it
Tact is fine
Cleric is fine
War hero is meh give them faster training time
I disagree. I believe most people that you are referring to are Utopia fanatics (which is a small subset) that can use this bonus. (That would include me as well. )
Someone who isn't that devoted to the game can still reap good benefits from an Avian with Fog compared to us elites that can really reap the bonus of -30% Attack Time.
It's either increased attack time or use use -1 attack time to counter it or MV.
Suggestion for WH.
Give it -50% Wages.
I personally like this age's Elves. Just want a better spellbook (while keeping mages fury).
The thing is regardless of prior ages or this ages changes if you dont know how to play a non-caster Elf you really dont know how to play an elf regardless of changes, just the bonuses is a handicap.
Why does Halflings get mages fury?
The biggest change, no more tog on a race, I like it. Makes merchant more viable and faeries less strong.
T/m races:
I like nerf on faeries... keeps them manageable for the non-faeries and losing tog is pretty big for them. Essentially turns them into the elf from last age which was nice but not overpowered. The nw on the faery leets may be a bit too much now though.
The nerf on elf may be a bit much. 30 wpa and +1 def spec as only bonusses and a leet with too much nw? Not a great pick atm. Did you forget to put a -33% defensive losses bonus in there or something?
Halfling looks better now, I think when compared to faeries both will be useful. Better nw elites when compared to other elites and +50% tpa bonus is what I asked for to get them on par with the elves and faeries, I think they look playable now. I also like the switch between elf and halfling for mages fury and invisibility.
From the t/m races I think faery and halfling are balanced now and elf could use a bit of love. Also seems the attackers got a bit better compared to the t/m's.
Attacker races:
Avian look great with that +1 general. It's quite a big bonus for kingdoms that know what to do with it.
Dwarf needs some loving. I think the nw on the leet is way too much for this race to be good.
Human looks awesome. Low nw leet for the biggest offense in war, ouch. Even with the -gains, it's awesome like this, the amount of offense you can get on them more than makes up for it.
Orc sci nerf looks big, but they did need it. The 10% from this age made it a bit too strong imo. It looks balanced now.
Undead looks balanced. The same as last age with more affordable elite. With avian and human this strong I doubt they'll see much play.
Persona's
I can be really short about this... it looks balanced, except for rogue and war hero.
I think double td on rogue and the crime efficiency and the AW/prop and +1 stealth is a bit much. I'd drop the crime efficiency to 50% or drop the double td efficiency.
I think war-hero just has a lot of cool bonusses that dont work together well and dont have a real use in any organised kingdom. Besides the bonusses that look cool but dont do that much, I'd put something else on them, like +15% combat gains.
I just want to emphasize that the defensive loss bonus on Elf would not really bring it up to where it needs to be, but would come a little closer. Give them QF and/or rune production bonus and/or +1 mana in war and/or more offensive spells or something.
Elves: There is no way with these changes elves will be taken as T/M over halfers and faeries. Give them back mana recovery and Mages Fury.
Mages Fury + Mana Recovery
Or
Mages Fury + Combat loss bonus
What is the point of invisibility?
Humans: Combined with Warrior that's +40% OME... You can't be serious
Halfer + Rogue = Too much of a bonus to thievery.
Human negative gains bonus will really hurt when hitting into oponents with high or CS. Then anything other in war than max gains could be cruical. So not so good at chaining if big hummie.
Might drop OME to 15% though on Human.
P.S. Warrior + human is 44% bonus not 40%.
Compare orc with human:
orc - 7/1 elite, +30% gains, free draft (econ bonus), +25% kills; -20% sci eff
human - 7.2/3 elite, 5 off offspec [note: this factors for their ome bonus], .33 bpa/tick free (econ bonus), fok, QF, -20% gains.
Now look at a human trading hits with an orc.
Let's say a 14% base gain hit, both provs on 3k acres.
Orc gains 546a before GS.
Human gains 336a before GS.
Essentially, because of the gains difference, you're looking at orcs gaining 62.5% more per hit than humans. Whether that's in a chain or not, that's a massive difference. And the offense the two have is functionally the same if they're all elite. Human would have slightly more. Human can turtle better, but you're not turtling if you're running suicide offense.
Neither has great econ in war. Human would be better defensively because of it's sci bonus, but orc can train up faster because free draft is fantastic for the emer/pat drafting in pump.
You have to lookat other aspect. That any decent attacker can 2-3x Ork with army home and then 3-4 once army out. While it's 1 hit on human, later 2 hits. Now with def bonus away situation is better. Ork is great, but it's "One hit Wonder" race. You make nice hit and etc, then you got down super easy.
I see invisibility as a compromise of losing the T/M combo they have this age and semi makes sense being it is an Elf thematically. (though Halflings should get it too)
I personally want to keep the dmg/duration bonuses that the Elves got this age.
If you didn't play an Elf this age, please don't say they were under powered. They were more than able to do what they need to do... in a way they are more powered or maybe even overpowered than they were last age. But it requires a different play style that everyone is so use to.
Just Faeries this age is very hard to crack in every way (attacks due to 5def elites, thief due to that % bonus and magic due to that % bonus)
Elf was good against attackers. Once war drags and it's TM war. Elf and halfer was food for faeries.
IDK why everyone is saying Avian is strong, all i see are some very landfat provs. Perhaps instead of the big br bonus give them a big population bonus to make up for crappy elites and no stables. Also Humans having -20% gains is weird maybe give it to Avian at like -10%(landgrabs only) to slow down landfatness in wars. The warrior lost its extra general but why? Avian's should give that extra general back, keep in mind a big population boost to make up for it should be implemented. Take away +20% ome from humans and just make warrior +30% in wars.
War Hero still needs to be changed to something like +150% honor gains and -50% honor losses.
a T/M war the Elves have one more benefit than the Faries... being a good land bank with their DSpecs. Plus Elves should really be training up thieves to keep their thief ratio in balance in addition to their dspecs.
Elves main weakness is a FB chain, which faeries have the upper hand in breaking through... but it requires 2 mages to punch through enough to make a difference.
The faeries WPA bonus is semi-negated with the Magic Shield spell + Natures blessing and due to their large selection of spells which includes self spells. They don't have enough mana to do enough damage to an Elves pop unless they neglect their other duties.
In my experiences Elves tends to be avoided in ops being they are a pain to deal with and late war it is usually too late to op an Elf for much damage to make a difference. Elves have to be taken out at the beginning of the war when everyone is still in network range, and TPA/WPA is still good enough to take an Elf down.
Human "battle gains" are the same -gains that halfers had last age?
Overall:most of the options seems somewhat lackluster w/out any extra mechanics changes. The "big" things i see are
Humans cant tank anymore w/out going sage (defensive losses+cleric basically meant they could sit leets in for no risk) but as i dont like sage based kds if u aren't whoring so its like meh.
Cleric taking ANOTHER hit to losses doesn't really deter it as the preferred choice for core attackers....this is becuase
--Warrior is countered by fighting in hostile (Enhanced Conquest range is a 100% worthless bonus since attack times/gains STILL scale with nw outside of war). And while "needing to chain" the enemy may be important if u can pull the war to 4+ days your remaining mod off is greater on the cleric than the warrior assuming both started with the same number of leets (this effects chained targets, which if your plan is long wars really does matter because you've chained all the scary mod off, and should be able to NS down/shell any of the SUPER fat attackers that STARTED off small with high hospitals like this even mattered)
--While Tact is worthless since orc already has CS and simply "attacking faster" means nothing if you dont have the offensive sustain (while non orc tacts STILL wont attack fast enough to counter the +per hit gains an orc gets).
All this does it make pure t/m's a tad more important since offensive sustain drops a bit faster.
Otherwise i think between
And
most of my thoughts are spoken about. I will note though that
@Avain (and the contradicting statements) I think in the ghetto an avain will seem strong as they just smash smash, move acres over and FEEL overwhelming because everyone knows more acres=win right (/me rolls his eyes). However against any organized kd avains just dont have the numbers to compete at all given they also lead to burn out. You want them viable, remove +50% Birth Rate, Ambush Immunity, have them donate their spell-book to undeads for access to town watch and THEN make them immune to fireballs/kidnap. THAT makes them hard to deal with and worth the crappy military #'s/sustain.
Any decent attacker can 3-4 tap a human with leets out. If your human is eating 1 hit fully army in, then turtling w/leets and geting 2 taped while he only managed to 3 tap an orc your failing in your roll as an attacker. Thing is
Since humans have a 8+/x army you want to compare it to orc for ability to run as a core. Sure you could compare it to dwarf but dwarf has the flexibility that +BE/free builds give while humans lost the flexibility ToG gave. (note avain is a speed atttacker, there's zero reason to examine it outside the "can i use it instead of orc" roll.)
RedPanda I play Elf often (this age and last, too) and I don't love it this age or with the changes. I agree that people are mistakenly viewing it as a simple "magic version of halfling" role instead of what it's built for, but I don't think it can thrive even in the role it's intended to fulfill.
Certainly some fun options with this setup for running an all elf kingdom, though.