Hi guys,
Given Human / Sage is the most popular race / pers combo in Age 77, could someone be nice to provide some tips on builds, strats, and other general tips? Thanks!
Printable View
Hi guys,
Given Human / Sage is the most popular race / pers combo in Age 77, could someone be nice to provide some tips on builds, strats, and other general tips? Thanks!
Human sage is a do-it-all. The best tip to give is u can build your prov in any direction based on what your goals are.
For example if u want to run an econ focused human pump pop science, alchemy, be and channeling science then pump wpa and use high wt/homes/banks in war to fund dragons/aid.
Or u could go offensive beast and max pop/me/be asap and run like 1 tpa 1 wpa high stables/tg/rax/gs and an insane leet/acre count and just break anything you want.
Personally i'd aim for tanky attacker ignoring everything till i could get my mtpa & mwpa safe from enemy kds. If u can get in a spot where your "safe" from ops your +econ and econ immunity can really help your kd as well as acting either as an unbrekable hitter or as a brick wall the enemy struggles to bring down.
I am laughing at all the human sages....
Why you ask? cause they have the weakest wpa of all races, and theres no way as an attacker you will be able to fit everything you need into your build. Universities are now a must more so than wt's due to the fact amnesia in a mass attack can and will reset your science to the start of the age.
Elf sage on the other hand is quite a monster...building wise allows for less towers, and food quickly before even mid age appears. Decent mage defense if not the best.
oh in case everyone missed it the undead is now 30% casualties not just offense.
Uh - I feel like I just walked into an alternate universe. This strikes me as vines'esk-ly baffled logic.
Short form of human sage strat (cause very tired right now) is simple. Remember to not build elites. Everything else will be pretty simple attacker standard strat, the only surpassing thing is going spec.
Vine's was one of the few people here who ever tried to think for himself, he was a man among men compared to most of the lot around here.
respect.
[QUOTE=Ethan;15466503]Uh - I feel like I just walked into an alternate universe. This strikes me as vines'esk-ly baffled logic.
And how is it baffled logic?
a. humans do have the weakest wpa -15% total may not seem like much at the start of the age but it has a dire affect late age, when a non elf sage can devatate your sciences.(look at the race and personalities picked so far.)
b.) universities i a building that protects against amnesia now, the only thing in the game that can and WILL hurt science progression throughout the age if you war even one war.
c.) only a pure rogue player(not many pure rogues will be around by late age due to abduct being gone increasing the overall chance of a/t/m's) will by pass a sage in terms of tpa, albeit maybe not orc.
d.) By late age if you get amnesia'd in a war by core of non human sages, your dead in the water for the rest of the war and even rest of the age due to being behind the curve. Your tpa and most certainly wpa, as a human, will suffer greatly.
-15% wpa is a con that can not be reversed by any pro. PERIOD.
I dont have alot of experience casting or having amnesia cast on me in my 15 years playing.... its just odd that we need a building to counter a spell only a single personality has. Curious to see how potent it actually is in war.
Wonder how many casts it will take to reduce professor's even a single rank even IF you are max science... and if that would even be any better than just casting tornado's.
From my experience of playing sage and doing amnesia, it barely hurts someone unless one does like 30-40 casts in a row. Then only you see the significant difference. Now in war, that many casts and runes can be put to better use by a sage.
I agree with Ethan in that i don't think the logic about amnesia follows. It is the only thing that can hurt science now. But that doesn't make it any stronger than it was previously. Personally I think it is effectively weaker (assuming no formula changes to the spell) because on average people have more science.
I'd like to state that +30% effectivity to science is nothing after reaching the cap and breaking it, and science holds nw, it will allow for max science early, but it will only equate to the same thing as what happens for mystic on wpa, you reach the target then what? no mystic even though they have the production would go for 15 raw wpa since they would have insufficient room for thieves, military and peasants then. Any non mystic might pump wizzards slower, but they will have the capacity to reach more or less the same wpa in the end, and if there was no AW or massacre, and wpa was not dependent on size the mystic.
This is what happens to Sage, you reach the cap and then when others hit the cap your sage is not going to do you any good say for a minimal boost, and you will end up on way to high nw if going over the cap which will happen unless you constantly reset all scientists, this gives you a window of what 2-3 weeks of superior boost to science, others will reach max science too, mystics will go for magic science first, rogues for thievery science and so on, so even though you can get it all faster your wpa boost will still not beat mages, your tpa boost will not beat thieves, and your military boost will not beat attackers.
One thing to remember, especially as sage if you get chained do not hesitate for a second but reset all your scientists so that the chain will be inefficient from there on, keep your professors and you will most likely be chained so low on land that you will get PK'ed.
That beeing said humans does have the second most offensive elite and a boost to ecconomy that others have not, rather than building on other aspects I'd say go for the ecconomy effect and max alchemy first to boost a strong ecconomy even more, at +30% alchemy your income gets to be 169% of a normal province without alchemy science and add banks and it will be more than twice as good. This can be done without sage as well, and since Humans also get quick feet I'm going with paladin over sage to spread this and because PI is better than IA and they got other cool spells as well. As far as I recall self spells on others are less affected by WPA meaning this is a potential way to get arround the -15% wpa by only doing self spells and support.
Sage +30% effectiveness applies beyond the cap right? I don't really follow what you are saying for sage.
What you are saying makes sense for the human +sci generation, but I don't think it makes sense for sage + effectivness. Even if everyone hits the soft cap, sage still has 30% more science effect (effectiveness).
Are you suggesting that the cap for alchemy then is +39% vs others +30% ? must admit it has been many years since I last tinkered with sage, but two ages ago running warrior with boost to military science it did not feel as if my soft cap was +20% higher but more that I got +20% more effectivity with the same science curve meaning the same cap applies and the additonal effects over the cap is diminished.
But the +30% goes beyond the soft cap.. In fact you dont really lose any effectiveness on scientists until around 45 per cat. then its curve not a deadend. Add to the fact that going double novice and swapping every few days takes care of the NW problem. Human Sage can be played very well... but most wont.
You can add scientists after the soft cap of 30 and the first few give almost full benefit at professor, and they continue to give some benefit the more you add albeit less the higher you go. So if you put 50 professors in housing, you will have more housing science than someone with prof at the softcap.
Just like the nightmare spell if done correctly amnesia can and will hurt. Thing is i don't think i ever seen another kingdom use a core of sage attackers, around 6-7 of them to be exact, even then it was better science effectiveness. So you might need an additional sage to pull it off now.(was even a better combo when elfs had nightmares). When amneia first rolled out or the age after...been a while it was effective....very effective. It allowed the non sage attackers to cast tornados with ease and the two rogues in the kingdo to decimate the chain targets even more easily after that.
Only seen it done properly once. Like i said that was also back when elfs had nightmares. And like many strats it hinges on one or two things, go against a super active kingdom it may or may not work.
well realized that I keept mixing up QF and WS so no QF to kd mates.
On topic we will see once age starts my guess is 30 professors for sage would give 34-35% boost in Alchemy, I also found that arround 110 professors gave barely over twice the cap for Military ME two ages back on +20% to ME science, so guessing sage would still need arround 80-90 to dubble as cap was maxed at 35 or 38 then and now it is 30, after twice the cap it hardly goes up at all, actually it hardly does so a good time before you reach twice the cap. Only worth it with reset as it is still 400gc/professor, only then you need twice that number for dubble effect, and really who would want to spend up to an hour a day simply resetting scientists?
Like NM, Amnesia can't be MV'd.
Sage core can use Amnesia to stagnate enemy science, just as I've learned to use NM as a suppression tool. Let's take the BeastBlood campaign as an example, or any b2b that involves age winning ramifications. Not only does Amnesia reset science it also grants honor like any other spell. If you're moving in science and honor simultaneously and your enemy can only move in honor...
These are campaign issues, but I've used Amnesia effectively in and out of war. In war I used Amnesia to bombard an enemy halfling rogue who at desperation massacred me, but I countered to even the wpa. Out of war I've used it against kingdoms going UF to hostile, and in all cases except the war mentioned above, the aggressor stopped within ticks of seeing the results.
At that time I was running an undead sage in the first age of scientists and abductions. I never attack unproved so I never stacked science as easily as I could. I was so effective I felt I was the meanest flower in the garden. The potential was immensely higher than the server had anticipated. This wasn't me being a genius, I just like to experiment with builds that have little to no participation from the player base. I was happily surprised.
Hey smercjd, nice seeing you. Amnesia is part of the story here.
The prevailing wisdom of past ages was to abduct vs sages despite defenses because they still offered high scientist yield. This, more prominant in the wild tier. Now we have humans with cuddly bonuses and no abductions.
Without abductions the server core across all kingdoms must use alternative measures to babysit their armies.
Let's say it: everybody knows they have to have army out, but have to stay in kingdom size range - ergo quality per acre known as abduction. Plunder is situational and often lacking in resources to advocate its use.
Top kingdoms would tell you trad march has always been the best choice, and I agree. Still, most kingdoms are apprehensive about casual whoring. Instead of dragging them screaming to age 77 they should consider the human sage regarding the "why?". Quality per acre. Science is the great equalizer and humans will have the highest quality in an age where land will be moved in the highest quantity for some time. And you can't abduct them.
PS the human disadvantage of higher rune cost is no longer there; they only have to overcome the science deficit in channeling.
I see. Yes I agree on that. I think "In fact you dont really lose any effectiveness on scientists until around 45 per cat." isn't accurate though. The first one above the cap is more beneficial than any previous ones. After that, each one does lose effectivness, albeit it is gradual on a curve as you said.
We don't need to guess though. Because (a) the hard/soft cap existed with sage last age so why would it be different in principle now and (b) the test server is open with the new age code and Poopsie has tested it. I cannot confirm first hand, of course, it is a very simple thing to test putting enough profs in alchemy to hit soft cap and seeing a 39% benefit rather than something else.
you're not geting devesated by an enemy saage as a human. -15% wpa isnt going to be enough to easily land spells on a human sage by an enemy sage if both run similar science mixes and raw wpa. The only effect -wpa has on a human if they aim tanky like most sages will is that enemy t/ms with super high wpa will have a slightly easier time landing MS.
4 raw wpa human with 130% books over science cap has a mod of 3.115 to their wpa. Gives a total mod of 4*3.115*0.85=10.5825 mod wpa. Mystics can land on that and elf heretics may have a some success with fb but in general your not landing spells on that till u get to 20 mod wpa, which is VERY unlikely for non human sages to reach..even an elf sage would only reach 16.8 mod if they are on 4 wpa.
it can be if u just mash books into channeling science. its not nw effienct but if ii were a human sage core and i knew i was going to war a elf kd in a week i'd consider puting 50 books into channeling...i have the spare books over the elf and it should counter my pently enough to make casting hard.
u wont be behind rest of the age. it takes 7 days to recoup science at most, and most poeple aren't casting enough amensia to take u from all prof to all novice. More than likely a hard core amnesia run is only going to set u back 4 days in science
Alternatively Universities leaving the game seems meh, perhaps universities were simply not taken out of the game because this age was just the first change to science and having to re-add them next age if more changes happen seems stupid.
sage is a flat bonus of 30% to whatever number u'd normally get. It does in fact take the cap from an effective 30% to a 39% cap.
As for effectiveness going over the cap...As u said the first science above the cap is the most beneficial, and each one beyond that has a curve to be less effective. However that doesnt mean ANY science is actually good for you. Each professor has 411 NW next age. If the benefit given by that professor gives is less than their impact on your nw you would say that they losses effectiveness.
i.e. lets say 1 prof gives u a 10% ME bonus but carries a 100k nw with it. If im 100 acres i could grow to 110 acres and run the same mod tpa/wpa and peasent count i had at 100 acres along with 10% additional military for a lot less than 100k nw.
Some people have run numbers and they estimate that the above happens at about 45 science per category (i dont really agree with those calcs from my own experience but thats the claim.)
Bishop once mater of factly told me that magic/thief effectiveness is not equal to TPA/WPA and is actually worse, i know all the intel sites like to use it like they are equal but in my experience what bishop said runs true.Quote:
you're not geting devesated by an enemy saage as a human. -15% wpa isnt going to be enough to easily land spells on a human sage by an enemy sage if both run similar science mixes and raw wpa. The only effect -wpa has on a human if they aim tanky like most sages will is that enemy t/ms with super high wpa will have a slightly easier time landing MS.
4 raw wpa human with 130% books over science cap has a mod of 3.115 to their wpa. Gives a total mod of 4*3.115*0.85=10.5825 mod wpa. Mystics can land on that and elf heretics may have a some success with fb but in general your not landing spells on that till u get to 20 mod wpa, which is VERY unlikely for non human sages to reach..even an elf sage would only reach 16.8 mod if they are on 4 wpa.
Paladin casting scientific insight on human sage should be cool.
I'm glad we don't have devs who might call it science grab bag.
Well sounds more convincing than the argument Popsie said so on discord, still I'll maintain that to much nw from science is bad and even at flat rate +30% with everyone potentially reaching max it is not going to give you an edge against people who is dedicated to one role if you are not dedicating yourself to one role but trying to play as everything.
If you are confident in running sage that is for you, I know I am going to aim for something else to match my playing style, and that it probably will be more fun for me than going sage. I might even skip on human if it gets to be to mainstream since I'm a big fan of orc and avian, but still in the process of deciding my approach, I'll probably know when I see the kingdom I land in.
Manipulating your nw via sci will be a thing, but only a few kds need worry about that methinks :P I feel people are falling in the sage mindset too easy (see that hu/sage crowd in survey of the world).
Get out of the strategy forum avenger.go play in the tavern or something.
I've never let the coolest build be mine, if only for competitive reasons. It's nice to see human appreciation again.
Not sure if I'm playing because the province I made to see the charts in 76, I'd forgotten about 4 hours later..
Maybe Pillz is right and I should build a bench warmers kingdom. If I can ramp up my motivation I'll start later in the age. If i can't ramp up my motivation I'll just whine.
I agree that most see this panacea and jump in with both feet with little regard for impact on their actual game play or kingdom strategy.
Still playing with the idea of Human Sage, but no elites and science dancing the cats for grins to keep nw low makes an intriguing play.
Mod Hat on:
@ganga hes making a valid point...either say why hes wrong or at least say its a bad idea to adjust science to get the thread talking about something pertinent to topic at hand...humans/sage/science. This post isnt helpfull even just offtopic to be friendly/funny. See avengersfor an offtopic post that is at least implying a criticism your comment
@ avenger try not to take the bait if he goes off again
Now for my real post; dont like double posting :(
whatever you herd you must have misunderstood or he misunderstood what u were asking. -wpa effectiveness for human is effectivelya flat mod to mWPA. The way spells and ops are work is of the form (substituent a T for thieve stuff)
{(defender mWPA) /(Attacker mWPA)} * random factor = X.
if (X< spell difficulty cast spell*racial mods ) then cast spell
else fail.
in the above 2 i added in the italicized part based on what davidc said on discord. the only practical difference is that the mods effect self spell success rate in addition to offensive/defensive success rates
obviously mystic aura, cs get factored in but they dont alter the general way things are done or anything i posted besides arguing if the relative mods are/arent enough for casting. If your going to argue effectivess and the form of how success rates are calculated your opinion to the strategy forum is only damaging to those reading it. Theres nothing magical about the formula or any hidden knowledge to be gained information to be gained that u cant just figure out using a small random factor and intell gathered from your own prov and the enemies.
I actually agree with to much nw being bad, its hard to define the exact number though because how much is 20% extra BE worth to in nw. no one as far as i know has gone in done a real calculation of the effective nw of every science bonus to a prov since there are so many other variables at hand. BUT if u build two proves full out aiming for the same military mwpa and mtpa something tells me the sage is only while both provs are sill under science caps. Afterword i suspect simply being bigger is better than having science (as long as u arent acre caped like top kd fights)
Idk, bishop was saying thats just not how its coded, they are not coded as the same thing. he was insistent and he said he knew how the code was coded. Are you positive they are coded as the exact same? 1 wpa and 100% magic effectiveness is the EXACT same as 2 wpa no science?
So science NW calcs are really weird these days because you have to pick a size, since they are flat NW. (I think?) And all the values are changed too.
I can speak to the old science though, when pop was .67% per bpa^.5 and each bpa was just a bit over .01 NW. In that case, I know pop sci for a prov could top out as high as 10,000 bpa, and BE and the like hit a few thousand as well. Even the worst sci, food, wanted over 100 bpa, and attackers wanted a few hundred bpa in magic/thievery.
What's notable about that is on genesis I think I once got my military (gains) sci up to 500 bpa. After a whole age, I got 1/20th the total target. The actual cap for sci was so stupidly, stupendously, high that it was functionally infinite.
With the whole system totally changed, this doesn't tell us too much about the current game. But it leads me to bet that the "cap" on sci due to NW considerations is still probably a whole lot higher than expected, because it is just so strong. ME sci in particular is "NW free" military, other than the sci NW itself - which is a crushingly better ratio than any other source of offense.
I've can't understand the fascination with human however. I play a lot of spec offense races - if I'm playing one again I'm going for dwarf for BE and free build, much better bonuses than human brings. (Or if faery had some better spells still, faery attacker is great fun - I play that a lot, hence the spec offense.) I love science always... but the whole race to just get +25% better sci (and much less once at caps) just isn't a sale I can make. Sage itself is significantly stronger than the human advantage, and it isn't even a race.
Sorry I'm a big newb, some of your discussions are confusing to me and I would like to understand:-
1) Why do some people suggest no elites? I though elites make you strong, does that mean running just off and def spec?
2) Science switching to reduce networth - how often do you need to switch around? Do you switch all or just a percentage? How do you maintain the bonuses from science if we keep resetting?
3) What is a typical build for human sage? In war/out of war? Do you keep labs?
Sorry if my questions are stupid, I am a newbie and just want to learn more
I think alot of people confused +25% science SPAWN rate with +25% science effectiveness(humans DO NOT HAVE THIS), see it alot in theses forums. And this thread.
Edit and all that means, and i could be wrong which i am sure someone will correct me and i will learn something new, is that a humans base % on scientist generation starts at 25% instead of 0%, still a slight chance that you will have to wait til it gets to 100% to get a scientist.
I think the scientist spawn rate works a bit like this. Every tick you gain % scientist. When it hits 100% you gain a new scientist and everything above 100% is put into the next. This % per tick rate is a flat rate with the base I think is somewhere around 9-10% per tick. Humans simply have this flat rate * 1.25.