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Is Ruby always an obvious first dragon choice or would you sent another one please explain why. The kingdom we gonna war with looks like this : Dark Elves:6 Elves: 14 and Gnomes: 5 we think there are 21 Attackers among them , my mates want to sent the Gold one first hoping to... well I can't understand their way of thinking I've always sent Ruby first and it never failed as strategy so far , could you help me out.
The fact that you always used the same dragon, and been succesful does not guarantee any succes in the future.
It is important to know the cost of a dragon in order to decide what to send.
If you really take a look at the "diffrence" between the dragons, it isn't that high.
What's intresting is that all dragons cost 20 % of the drafted soldiers, and another 10 % in income.
That's where the big cost is really.
Now the other benefits of the dragon are more specialized to suit your strategy.
If your kd mate wants to use Gold dragon, then you should target overall population to lower the BE.
That way you maximize the effect. That's the easiest thing to do.
You send a ruby if you want to take advantage of the lower military efficency. Easier to break the enemy, while they have hard time breaking you.
In your situation not knowing your kd, I would picked ruby if choose between gold and ruby.
Otherwise I would pick sapphire, with good amount of WTS.
Depends on your enemy kingdom, most of the time Ruby is your best choice with the -8% ME that makes your enemy send more troops in offense and you need to send less to break, meaning you'll keep more defense at home and they will have a lot less defense at home, any kingdom worth their salt will kill a ruby dragon off very quickly as they will lose less % troops killing it off rather than having it on them.
On the other hand if the kingdom your facing has you well outmatched in the t/m departments it might be better to send a sapphire dragon to up their failures strong t/m based kingdoms (hybrids) can do a lot of damage with their t/m ops and having them autofail 20% of them will both lessen their damage and up their t/m losses.
I have never seen a Gold dragon effectively used you'd have to drop their provinces into the low 60% BE range to really use that dragon effectively, usually kingdoms at war have enough barren acres to keep decent BE. Even with heavy peasant control ops. Gold Dragon may work but you better have some really well defined Peasant control plans maybe even a few waves of massacres to start.
The emerald dragon is quite nice especially if you know you can outgrow your opponent if you make them gain 10% less per attack and you can out grow them you can get part of your kingdom "untouchable" and that will allow you to win long term. Key is you have to be able to have some of your provinces be able to outgrow the enemy substantially.
we typically use the ruby dragon.. the -8% military eff. is very powerful, and if the opposing kd isn't co-ordinated, it gives us a huge advantage off the start. either way, they loose a good number of troops..
heres and example..say we stick the ruby on them, then we get in a good wave of attacks with it on them, then they kill it, it really works to our advantage twice. so that's really why we go with it
ive seen it used effectively on occasion, normally dwarves (115-120% BE) Vs a kd with low BE (mid 80's) you can drop them down to high 60's BE and really cripple them...Quote:
Originally Posted by uzziah
so its best used when you have a high BE advantage over your opponent and want to further increase that lead
Emerald: 10% Higher military losses in combat and 10% lower attack gainsQuote:
we think there are 21 Attackers among them
honestly that's what should have been within the choises. but if you had looked at their stats on pimp you could tell quite a few things.
-8% ME... when their overall total ME % is around 120-135% .. personally i dont find much solace in the fact that they ONLY get 8% loss of that.... its kinda sad to waist the gold on a ruby....
perhaps an emerald would have been best suited.. yes many here say saphire, but again he also said possibility of 21 attackers/hybrids. and im not sure about you but a hybrid t/m attacker never really did have high abilities in all 3... just too spread thin and let me tell you... this kd, isnt so great on the t/m dept
then looking at half their BE's and Populations... quite a few of their attackers have 70% BE, some pre-hostile had no homes, about 6-8k pesants, and workers needed for "max" efficiency roughly 28-34k.
in other words no barren lands.
it was fairly obvious that our first move would be something of a gold dragon... also considering our stratagies as well... perhaps had you decided to browse the forums a wee bit more... you would know our t/ms are or should be working off of that.
once that was finished and dragon killed off, perhaps an emerald or a ruby would be sent, so that after our attackers picked off the land, their BE would rise, and their province would slowly stabalize.. or that would be the supposed "battle plan"
I like ruby dragons because they are an offensive dragon, while the other dragons are defensive.
I like sapphire and emerald, because they're underrated, and people rarely feel the need to get rid of them.
Ruby is kinda universal, just like tactical marines. It works against everyone, but isn't optimal against anyone.
emerald for troop killing, longer the other KD leaves it the more bang for your buck.
sapphire for heavy t/m KDs but id pick a gold over this.
gold, a good dragon if left a while and use with pezzie killing tactics. usually more than one sent for better effect. poor chained elfs... affects t/ms too so its pretty good choice for longer wars.
ruby, general dragon to give you the edge if you get it out first for your wave, standard ware for any ghetto but still good in the right hands when they consider the other choices.
I only ever use emerald or ruby. I used sapphire once and way to many of the spells came through to make dragon effective Emerald is great if you in most acres war witch is what a lot of kingdoms determine war by. Side effect if war is not short then enemy has more looses and can't keep up with you as long as they are not elf.
Like people have said ruby is always effective and that's why people use it. Other dragons are good but much better when used with combo's
For example gold plus population control.
Ruby if your chaining those Elves, Emerald if your chaining those Gnomes.
They will likely kill the dragon after your first wave so it depends who your taking out first really, then use the other dragon afterwards.
Ruby is pretty lame in my opinion, emerald isnt that strong either.
Gold lowers the effectiveness of TG, forts,hospitals,TD, and everything else....giving it the benefits of ALL dragons, if not quite as much.
imo for most kingdoms, ruby should always be the choice taken. until ur kd is at a high level u r not likely to take more advantage of other dragons than ruby
but if u really want to know how those dragons are generally used, heres a very general guideline that i follow:
if u r planning a long hostile, emerald is the best dragon as troop losses are more heavy pre-war, plus u have gangbang protection so u dont have to worry about getting chained down to double tap range. and since u r exchanging single taps, +10% enemy loss and -10% enemy gain really helps wear ur opponent down
sapphire dragon is a good "early war" dragon if u r against a hybrid-heavy kingdom, as hybrids are most effective in the first day of war (and if u play correctly, they are ONLY good at first day of war). and if u throw in a sapphire u can evade this critical period. however sapphire dragon is definitely not a permanent solution, and u need to be very careful not to rely on it completely for t/m protection. its a difficult dragon to use.
ruby dragon is good in all cases, especially as early war dragon. i think its pretty straight forward how to use it.
gold dragon can also be useful in many situations. personally i prefer to use it late war when enemy's economy is crushed, that way u hurt their ability to make a come-back more than other dragons. however once again its very difficult to say for certain when to use it, because in a lot of late war situations ruby may be a better choice. also gold dragon's effect is more long term, as oppose to ruby dragon (sometimes in late war as soon as a ruby is sent its GG). i personally dont recommend non top kds to use it.
Once half their land is in progress at all times, gold dragons becomes a bit worthless.
We lost a war due to a gold dragon on us, because we took a 24 hour massacre wave on half our provinces and refrained from killing the second gold dragon sent, even though our Ruby got killed.
It was more the lack of killing it that lost the war than the dragon type itself, but the BE drop definitely hurt my hospitals and WT!
Each Dragon has different uses.
If you're facing Orcs, Dwarves or Humans, an Emerald is a great opening dragon. Cuts gains, kills more elites. Only send it if you can get it off before their first wave though - later on, their armies will be reduced, so it's not as good. Don't use it for Gnomes, DEs or Elves though - they all retrain troops easily or lose troops slower, so the benefit is limited.
Gold is a great dragon to send if they can't slay it. You'll reduce the effectiveness of all of their buildings significantly, which means they'll be slower at attacking, worse at defending and train troops slower than you. It's especially effective against Gnomes, as a Gnome kd casting TW will lose tons of peasants and have a very difficult time keeping up. If you can get a few fireballs on every province, it's effect is dramatically increased. Finally, if they're running a bank province, this will really hurt his ability to feed his kingdom.
Ruby is the most misused dragon in the game. People regularly assume it should be the first dragon in a war and that's just not the right move. If a Ruby does not get you extra hits or open up larger provinces for hits, it's not doing much to help you that any other dragon wouldn't. Send it early only if they're turtled and you want to send less to break, they're low defense and you want to open them up for doubles or they have large provinces just out of reach. The best time for a Ruby is as the second dragon in a war. If they've already slain a dragon, they probably won't have the troops to kill another and their defenses will already be low, so you can open them up for double-taps or bring some of their big provinces into range. Use it as a crushing finishing blow, not an opener.
Sapphire only has one real use - to make sure they don't kill your dragon. The income and draft losses from a dragon are nice, and a good kingdom or kingdom with a bank will probably slay a dragon early. If you can send this one early, they'll either slay it and be open to a second dragon that they can't slay easily or keep it and lose the income and soldiers for the duration of the war.
@TheRock:
the first dragon usually dies within minutes or a few hours of it being sent, so it really doesnt matter which one it is. ruby is an excellent choice if u can get the 2nd dragon out quickly after the 1st is dead
and i also disagree with ur definition on sapphire dragon. if ur enemy dont slay it then u cant really send the 2nd dragon out. and if u r gonna send ur 2nd dragon on top of the first, then it will cost ur enemy a lot more economically to actually slay one than to keep a sapphire on for half a day
waheed -
It absolutely matters. Sending a Gold lowers their rax, hosps, TGs, Forts and GS for the opening waves, hurts their econ and drops their ability to recover and get ready for the next wave. Ruby's effect on the first wave is minimal unless it opens up larger provs for a many of your kingdoms.
Like you said, that first dragon is killed quickly. If you send a Ruby, you send out less, they send out more, but if you aren't getting to hit bigger provs, you don't really gain anything - they just send more and you send less. If it's dead before the second wave, you don't get to hit anything more or better. In other words, that Ruby doesn't really keep you safe or get you more acres.
With Emerald, you cut their gains by 10% and they lose more troops. This increases your gains significantly over them and hurts their ability to attack for the second wave. A Gold slows them down significantly - cutting 20% BE hurts TGs and Forts, which is similar to a Ruby's effect (much smaller, but it does something), in addition to hurting them for another wave.
Unless a Ruby gives you the opportunity to take significantly more acres (10%), Emerald is much better for your first wave. If the dragon is killed instantly, it doesn't matter which kind it is, but if it's there for even a few hours, a Gold can be devastating and an Emerald can give you a significant advantage.
Using a Sapphire is tricky, but if done right it's a great move. When facing an opponent with a bank, any dragon you'll send will probably be killed quickly. This makes your dragon pretty much useless - it's going to get killed for nothing. A Gold, Emerald or Ruby is just bait to get smacked. A Sapphire, on the other hand, is a tricky story. Will their bank waste specs to kill it? If he does, you don't lose anything more than if you'd sent another type. If he doesn't, you'll cut their incomes and draft significantly over the course of the war.
The only time this is useful is if you're facing a prov you can't possibly break and want to get a dragon up. Facing a Human bank with a ton of d-specs isn't really something you can deal with, but putting a Sapphire up gives him a tough choice - kill it to help his kd or leave it and hurt everyone's econs and draft? Tough call.
As for a second dragon, if you're facing a kd with a bank and can get a second dragon up in 12 hours, don't send a Sapphire, send something they have to slay :P
u have good points on gold dragon damaging economy and lowering the effect of rax/GS/WT. but personally from previous experiences, a lot of first dragons are killed in the first hour (some cases within minutes), so i dont think it will make a big difference regardless of dragon type for the first one
imo the real benefit of keeping a ruby dragon on ur opponent is that u put more threat on their unbreakables, and also make it more difficult to create new unbreakables.
anyway u have some good points and u r probably right, but imo it will make a little difference in the outcome of war whether if it was a ruby or emerald that ur enemy kept for the first 3~4 hours before slaying. early war dragons are pretty much to burn enemy's troops anyway, and u wont really get to feel their effect until later in war
as for fighting enemies with banks, GREAT care is needed! for example if my kd's max offense is 100k, i will rather keep my money and fight my enemy with a 600k defense bank and 80k peasants, rather than one with 300k defense and 130k peasants (i pulled those ## out of my ass but u guys get the point :p)
It makes a very big difference ;)
I know a lot of dragons are killed very early, so it's important to maximize your benefit while you can. If you're sure it's going to be killed fast, Emerald is the way to go - Ruby won't really give you much opening wave beyond a couple of bigger hits, while Emerald cuts their gains by 10%. If you can get them to keep that for their first wave, that dragon just bought you 10% more acres than them, all else being equal.
Gold is great if they're going to struggle to slay. It's a very difficult decision - you'll never be able to train troops and keep up with your opponents with it there, but you'll fall behind badly if you keep it. If I got a Ruby and sent a Gold, I'd be very confident that I was in better position than my opponent if we both kept it.
For banks, if they can slay and stay UB, sending a dragon to be killed is a waste. Ruby, Emerald and Gold will get taken out instantly, so why bother? Sapphire really makes it a tough choice - either slay and waste troops on a crappy dragon and risk receiving another one, or keep it and lose troops and income. It's a really nasty move ;)
In our war just finished their King demanded dragons. Some nOOb in our KD sent our ruby dragon (which I feel is the best) before the war started. Then I told their King how nOOb I was sending it early 5 minutes later he sends his ruby then 2 hours later declared war. They had big guys so killed our half strengther quickly as we did theirs. By that point we had crushed their economy so could send another. One day later we sent a gold dragon.
It seems that that combination (ruby then gold) seemed to work quite well.
I've heard this argument before, and I find it completely illogical. It only makes sense if you assume that the enemy has a harder time making the best decision on whether or not to slay the dragon if you send a Sapphire. Which may of course be the case, but it's risky to rely on the enemy's stupidity in your planning.Quote:
Sapphire only has one real use - to make sure they don't kill your dragon
As for Gold vs Ruby, let's ignore all economy buildings for sake of argument and only consider forts, TG, barracks, hospitals, GS, WT and TD. It's easier to compare the effects on these buildings with a ruby, so leaving the others out for now. Writing the effects of a gold dragon, assuming 100% BE and the noted building amounts:
10% forts - 1.8% defense drop
20% TG - 3.6% offense drop
10% barracks - 1.8% drop in attack time reduction
10% hospitals - 3.6% drop in reduction of casualties
15% GS - 2.7% drop in loss reduction
etc
If we ignore economy buildings, there is no difference in short and long term usefulness between the two dragons. Another factor is how many buildings unaffected by BE the target runs. If he's high on homes, stables and libraries then you get less for your gold dragon.
I find your counter-argument completely stupid.Quote:
I've heard this argument before, and I find it completely illogical. It only makes sense if you assume that the enemy has a harder time making the best decision on whether or not to slay the dragon if you send a Sapphire. Which may of course be the case, but it's risky to rely on the enemy's stupidity in your planning.
We'll agree that all dead dragons provide the same benefit - dead troops used to kill it. Ruby, Gold and Emerald all give very strong incentives to slay them, while Sapphire does not. Sapphire requires your opponent to make a difficult decision: either they weaken their big province to kill a dragon or they leave it.
As you've clearly missed, slaying a dragon is a cost vs benefit analysis. Since cost is always fixed, which is to say that the price of slaying the dragon is constant, decreasing benefit actually works in your favor here. By decreasing benefit, you actually provide a disincentive to slay it, as they receive less benefit from the dragon being dead for the same cost. That's not relying on stupidity, that's relying on forcing your opponent to make a very difficult decision. They can slay the dragon and open themselves up, risking not being able to slay future dragons, or they can keep it and take the draft and income penalties.
There's no relying on stupidity there - that's relying on your opponent being smart enough to recognize that slaying a Sapphire may not be in their best interests by providing less incentive to slay.
actually Catwalk's argument is not stupid. altho personally i wouldnt try to actually calculate #s. to me, it goes something like this:
ruby = threaten unbreakables, make it harder to pump more unbreakables, possibly more double taps. make it easier to pump our own unbreakables and protect our unbreakables better
sapphire: shut down heavy thief ops like NS or prop (due to fail rate + thief loss. however it will not shut down light thief ops like robbing)
gold: damages economy severely (the difference between ruby and gold is that gold will wear out all 25 provs slowly, whereas ruby pose immediate threat on big provs or those close to double tap range, but for mid-range provs it has very small effect)
emerald: make enemy's chaining less painful, and make them loose troop faster
then from there i compare with situation and decide which one is most appropriet.
TheRock you are assuming that it is easy to send dragons. in most cases its not. dragons cost approximately as much to fund as to slay (i didnt calculate the exact difference and i dont want to. the main point is it cost A LOT to fund and A LOT to slay). i usually go by the definition of 1 dragon = 2 unbreakable, as in i can either send 1 dragon or pump 2 provs to unbreakable.
so in ur case, if the kingdom slay the sapphire, they dont get a "free" ruby dragon on them, they will get a ruby dragon at the cost of millions of gc of the other kingdom, and sometimes its a bad decision to send a dragon if the economy cannot hold, or some unbreakable provs will help them more
also, cost is not always fixed. its fixed in a sense that it will "cost the same amount of gc", but the effect is not always the same. for example if kingdom A is overdrafted and runs no banks, and kingdom B is merchant + 15% bank + 9 ppa, a dragon might be 10mil gc for both kingdoms, but the actual cost for the two kingdoms are very different. similar argument can be made for slaying
the exception is if u send a sapphire PLUS have enough reserve cash to fund a 2nd dragon to 1gc, in which case ur enemy should CONSIDER whether they should keep or slay the dragon regardless of type
Long term effects rely on the enemy allowing dragons to live, so IMO short term effects are much more important.
Send a gold, their def. drops 1.8%, you hit, they kill dragon, they hit & op
Send a emerald, their def. is unchanged, you hit, they kill dragon, they hit & op
Send a saphire, their def. is unchanged, you hit, they kill dragon, they hit & op
Send a ruby, their def. drops 8%, you hit, they kill dragon, they hit & op
Ruby is the best :)
If its not in their best interests to slay it, then it wasn't in your best interests to fund it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRock
The cost to fund and kill a dragon are about equal in most cases.
waheed -
In most cases, you'd be correct. That's why in most cases, Sapphire is useless :P You aren't sending a Sapphire unless you have a very specific need.
The only time to send a Sapphire is when your opponent can easily slay it but you can't slay one they send - they have a bank, you don't. If this is the case, any dragon you send can be killed by your opponent safely by their bank province. You've now got a tough decision. You can see if you can get a second dragon up, which will be hard because their bank will safely pay for theirs but your guys will have a hard time doing so while training and building, or you can let them send dragons while you slay and open your provinces up or keep the dragon and let them have the advantage.
This is the only time I'd send a Sapphire. A Ruby, Gold or Emerald will get instantly killed by the opponent's bank, but a Sapphire will probably not. For them, it's the best dragon to have and they know you won't be sending a second on top of the first, so it's a very tough decision whether or not to slay.
Yes, in almost any other case, Ruby, Gold or Emerald is better. Thank you. Clearly we're talking about a special case where your opponent can safely kill any dragon sent by you but you can't do that in return.
"the exception is if u send a sapphire PLUS have enough reserve cash to fund a 2nd dragon to 1gc, in which case ur enemy should CONSIDER whether they should keep or slay the dragon regardless of type"
Your opponent never knows how much you've spent on a dragon :P
Ishandra -
Most cases are not all. If a bank province can slay it safely and you can't, the cost to send is much greater than the cost to slay, relative to the kingdom's military strength.
If they arent using that GC to slay dragons, they are using it to pump their attackers to unbreakable, or to help chained provs explore, etc etc.
The GC has to go somewhere. A bank can only slay so many dragons before your top range can break it, unless its starting around 5 times the NW of every other province.
if u r warring a good opponent, they will know whether or not you have funded the 2nd dragon to 1gc, and they will know how fast ur 2nd dragon will come, through proper intels and observation of buildings/drafts/reserve cash
on the other hand if ur opponent is not capable of doing that then u probably dont need to worry that much
I can't put it better myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishandra
lol the best dragon is when u send it, ur enemy tries to slay it and fails