alliances, FW's, raze kills and other stuff

in an attempt to save CW's thread am moving this here

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Hmmm, I agree that with pointing (very basicly) the points which I would like to be changed, I "enlarge" this topic...

But it is quite difficult to state whether one thinks if nothing, something or a lot of things have to be changed without any hint about what basicly.

And since I and Greenie are talking off topic already, I will answer his questions about my earlier post.

Q1 What's wrong with fake Wars? - Give another reason to disband Absalom and Hall.
A. The problem with fake wars is that they aren't wars... They are fake.
As a matter of fact they are used to get advantages, like additionnal outside protection, etc. You know that as well, or maybe even better than I do.
But if you want another reason, here we go...
Earlier this age I got on my province:
- An intell gathering of Trinity (shadowlight revealed),
- Within the hour an incoming trad march of Equilibrium (which I retalled),
- An intell agthering from Sanctuary (shadowlight revealed),
- Just before my retalling armies returned, a Trad March from Trinity,
- An intell gathering of Equilibrium during my next login.
Unlike other alliances, Absalom and Hall are offensive alliances. They play this game with teams of 150 players. While the rest plays with potentially 25.
That's why I want those Absalom and Hall kd's disbanded.

Q2. Why make raze-kill more difficult
A. Because it is way to easy now. It ain't even a challenge. And it limits wars this age to basicly raze attacking the others into or under the ground. Wars (real wars) never were so boring as now.

Q3. Difficult to assess if things are working properly, without having players ingame.
A. It ain't difficult at all. Firstly, there are enough bug-reports which explain the ongoing probs in Beta game. Moreover Genesis is starting before WoL as well.
So in a nutshell: Start WoL only if all bugs are taken care off, on Beta and Genesis AND when one has a solution on how moving the entire kd's to the new server.

BTW. I think Q3 is prettty "on topic". It isn't because someone with another point of view shows up, that one is suddenly "off topic".

Cheers,

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still dont see why we should ban FW's
for at least 72 hours, im stuck in limbo where i cant get science, lose honor, cant grow, but am protected from out side hits...

as for the ABS activity, shadowlight only gets the FIRST op after you cast it... and it sounds like you're a big prov in a smaller kd, which instantly means more interest from bigger kd's

Raze wars well, i can tell you that it made my kd's life much more interesting, who got to kill the other provs, trying to stat alive etc, we've had great fun, even started up counters for who has been killed/has killed the most =)

You can't stop alliances from forming, but they shouldn't be encouraged. Basically, as long as they play by the rules, ignore them.

Razing for acres is bad, because it makes growth in war impossible, and turns them into slugfests about who can destroy the other side first. It's such an effective weapon, you don't need to use any others.
Also, NO ONE likes catching up to 2 months' worth of science, or getting their 4 raw WPA back.

Fakewars are part of the current system, and until we get a better system, they'll always be there - whether you like them or not.
I think they're a waste of time, and very boring, but that's me. Most will say they're a necessary evil.

razes make war work

Razes should be allowed.

If you don't like them, only war kingdoms who will agree to your ghetto-ass war terms.

weaken razes in war by 2/3, Disallowing it is dumb, so is making it too strong. When Im winning wars while being smaller after war than before it, Its too strong.

Trying to eliminate alliances would hurt the game and be impossible anyhow. Trying to disband just one Type of alliance wont work either, keep dreaming.

Raze is bad, and makes wars even more rare than they already are.

I don't have trouble getting war. raze just makes it harder to grow in wars, if they just weaken it, the problems with it weaken too.

stop sucking so hard and you wont have a problem with raze.

I don't see how 'not sucking' somehow makes it more fun for 40% of a kingdom to play catch-up with the remaining 60%'s science and wizards, nor do I see how 'not sucking' would make wars profitable when the end-all, be-all attack is one that completely destroys any prospect of growth.

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Originally Posted by VT2

Also, NO ONE likes catching up to 2 months' worth of science, or getting their 4 raw WPA back.

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Not true. One of players was rk'd earlier in the age, and he is back up to our size with 6 raw WPA and decent sci. It is all about the strength of the player and planning :)

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Originally posted by Greenie:
still dont see why we should ban FW's
for at least 72 hours, im stuck in limbo where i cant get science, lose honor, cant grow, but am protected from out side hits...

as for the ABS activity, shadowlight only gets the FIRST op after you cast it... and it sounds like you're a big prov in a smaller kd, which instantly means more interest from bigger kd's

Raze wars well, i can tell you that it made my kd's life much more interesting, who got to kill the other provs, trying to stat alive etc, we've had great fun, even started up counters for who has been killed/has killed the most =)

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I see your point on FW, although you are not completly correct. I don't see why one can not get Sci during a FW...

After our second war, I became a big province in a smaller kd indeed.
I have no problem with being hit by Abs or someone else. (If one doesn't like to get hit, he should play another game).
Where I blame Abs is the fact they act as a super-kd of 150 provs. Being intelled, trad marched, intelled, trad marched by different provinces of the same kd is no prob to me. Where it becomes unfair is being intelled by f.e. someone of Dragons, followed within minutes by an attack by Equilibrium-lad, a new intell (SoM) from Rage, and then an attack from Sanctuary guy, etc etc...
The whole sequal happened in only 16-18 hours, and as such was most probably coordinated.

We have different point of views on the raze issue. I don't want raze attacks banned, or going only after builds like before. But they should be softened (f.e. make them NW-related like trad, massacre, plunder or any other thievery and magic operation).
You see it as a challenge and fun trying to survive, and I agree that is a challenge and fun for experienced players. But on the other hand it isn't a challenge to PK-raze somebody. When the oponent has you on top of targetlist, there ain't anything you can do about it. Especially if they can double, triple or quadriple raze you after a while... It's then morely a matter of generals, than miltary strength.



@ Pillz
Your quotes:

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stop sucking so hard and you wont have a problem with raze.

Razes should be allowed.
If you don't like them, only war kingdoms who will agree to your ghetto-ass war terms.

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Very good arguments, dude. I am really impressed.
Recommend you tough to make sure you know who you talk to, before calling them a "ghetto ass".
No further comment.

@ Realest:

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razes make war work

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What you mean? Wars in those 41 ages before didn't work?

"Very good arguments, dude. I am really impressed.
Recommend you tough to make sure you know who you talk to, before calling them a "ghetto ass"."

I am talking to Syele of ZEN and VT2 of ghettoland... I don't see your point.

And I really don't see why I must provide arguments to counter their cryings about raze being evil. "boo hoo, i got raze killed, i lost my science". My kingdom had 14-15 provs killed in 5 days a couple ages ago, we've had plenty of provinces raze killed in war before it was initially removed aswell.

We arent crying, are we? So why should twiddle dee and twiddle dumbass start crying? if they are getting provinces killed and dont like it, they can always withdraw from their war =) theyve obviously lost at that point. they are just crying because they can not play the game.

@ Pillz,

You impress me again... And I still miss your arguments why raze-PK should stay so easy to achieve...

As for the "crying" of "****head", "twiddle dee" and "twiddle dumbass".
Untill further notice they are part of the Utopian community as much as you are. That's why they have the right to post here.

FYI. Untill you come up with something decent, you don't have to await further replies from my side to your proza.
I hope you understand.

Okay, how about you go search AR, Utimes and the rest of Jolt for my well structured posts on the issue and come back to me then.

This issue of raze killing and razing has not stopped once since it was removed by Mehul, and after 2+ years of this "bring it back, take it away" crap I'm starting to get tired of repeating myself.

Raze killing is NOT easy to achieve in a ghetto enviroment unless the kingdom you're warring has already lost the war completely.

Raze killing does NOT put the dead provinces at a great disadvantage. Boohoo they lost some science and wizards - It is not the end of the world.

Raze does not prevent you from growing in war. While it is correct that raze destroys acres, if there is an actual winner to a war they will almost certainly come out with positive acreage.

Before Mehul removed raze, it was used FAR more heavily in wars - After warring so long without it, most kingdoms will still perfer to use traditional marches. If a province is raze killable it means it was pretty much ruined in the first place.

After a certain amount of hits, raze destroys only 15 acres. If you are telling me it is "too easily to pk provinces" with 15 acre hits, you're either warring completely inept opponents or are completely inept yourself. It is certainly not HARD to kill a province, but unless the majority of your kingdom can multi-tap them during the war, the chained province won't get raze killed. And if they ARE mutli-tapable, why shouldn't they be killed?

Come back with your own post defending your stance and maybe you'll recieve something worthwhile from me, however if your last two posts are any indication of your capability to communicate, I don't expect very much.

It's like how the top in Smash brothers doesn't let you play with items, only lets you use three characters, and only ever selects final destination as their map.

They're not elite - they're tourneyfags.

It's in their best interest to make sure they maintain all the 'I win'-buttons. Once they're stripped of those, they fail to impress even casual players, despite their massive abuse of bugs, which is really little more than outright cheating.

Yes, obviously you can compare raze killing to cheating.

You say you're having fun razing people to death. You say we're not 'skilled' enough to rebuild after we're razed to death, and lose several months of hard work. You say we're incapable of understanding the 'true' way the game's meant to be played, which is with raze in war.

All those go against what ordinary people consider 'fun,' and makes you into a tourneyfag. You're simply not going to let the game dictate the rules, and won't give up until you can dictate the rules for the game - the fun and entertainment of the majority be damned.

You want raze, because it's 'the one true way.' You want final destination, no items, Fox only, two stocks, or a five minute timer.

After reading this, you'll commence with the same old, tired, and silly nonsense.
"You're not skilled enough for this level of play." "You're too n00b to understand the greatness." "I'm better than you."

I don't want to play Razetopia. I don't want to play Super smash Foxbrothers - Final destination. It's really simple, but you're never going to accept this, and are forever doomed to fall back on 'well, you're not on my level, and you're totally incapable of grasping the full level of my skills.'

If you had an ounce of your claimed leet skills, you should be perfectly capable of winning over me without raze, and with a random character, items active, stock match, on a random stage. That's real skill - playing netdecks and 'I win'-buttons is not skill.

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Originally Posted by Pillz

I am talking to Syele of ZEN and VT2 of ghettoland... I don't see your point.

And I really don't see why I must provide arguments to counter their cryings about raze being evil. "boo hoo, i got raze killed, i lost my science". My kingdom had 14-15 provs killed in 5 days a couple ages ago, we've had plenty of provinces raze killed in war before it was initially removed aswell.

We arent crying, are we? So why should twiddle dee and twiddle dumbass start crying? if they are getting provinces killed and dont like it, they can always withdraw from their war =) theyve obviously lost at that point. they are just crying because they can not play the game.

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Where did I cry that raze is evil? I said weaken it a little not take it out. The wars I was in this age that were raze fest we won one and lost one. BOTH wars the winning KD had less acres than they started with. both wars have several people raze killed on both sides of the war.. even the winners.

I do not complain if my Provs get killed I teach them to fight back, and to not whine about it. But this is a suggestion board and I suggested weakening raze a bit. Why that makes me some parrot of VT2 saying to remove it that its bad and makes wars hard to get is beyond me since I disagree with all those points. Raze is not bad, its a perfectly good attack that is slightly overpowered atm. It does not make war more rare. I have very little trouble getting wars and I war on a schedule.

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After a certain amount of hits, raze destroys only 15 acres. If you are telling me it is "too easily to pk provinces" with 15 acre hits, you're either warring completely inept opponents or are completely inept yourself. It is certainly not HARD to kill a province, but unless the majority of your kingdom can multi-tap them during the war, the chained province won't get raze killed. And if they ARE mutli-tapable, why shouldn't they be killed?

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Its not that hard to make a Prov multitappable if you have any teamwork at all. By the time a prov is ready to be razed in a plan to kill them most of my KD if not all can quad tap them, 60 acres from each prov can take them down fast. Especially in "ghettos" where the average player is less than 1k before the war even started.

It's not that simple, I'm afraid.
Even a weakened raze would still be the end-all attack, because it completely ignores the usual problems of having to draft excess units, lessening your TPA and WPA, needing to build up your land, and screwing over your build.

He's saying you're a parrot, because he's a tourneyfag. Anyone who doesn't agree with them's not 'skilled' enough to understand the awesome truth.

Syele: +1 .

And about raze making wars "work". My kd fought 3 wars this age.
1st one: 11 RL days. It ended when they were 64% our size. It was a "raze fest" but lasted way so long because they were stuborn.
2nd one: 84 hours. Mostly Trad Marches, and some massacres from us at the end. The guys surrended because we outnumbered them in attack momentum.
3rd one: A "raze fest" that lasted for ... 16 days... It ended when they were 83 % our size and strength.

In a nutshell. The two raze wars lasted the longest...

Before somebody comes up with we fighting noobs. Those three oponent kd's end the age with a 4-3 or 3-2 warbalance ;)

Hmmm personally I'm fine with raze as it is. Weaken raze by 2/3 will be nearly as good as eliminating it. (Since it will not be worth anything to raze)

Another idea would be to bring back raze buildings instead of land.That would let you keep your acres and at the same time there would be people using it rather than "eliminating" it.

I hated raze buildings instead of land because it was too weak. Maybe 2/3 is too much. but the point is that raze should be equal to or less useful than Trad. IF its the most powerful way to war, then war will have no variety = boring.

There should never be only one good way to do anything in Utopia. That is what balance is about. We need raze to be allowed and PK in war to be possible. But we also need it not to make other options too weak in comparison to be bothered with.

"There should never be only one good way to do anything in Utopia." That's why being able to raze acres in war is bad, because it's a gamebreaker - like Akuma in Street fighter 2.

We don't 'need' the ability to kill people. Isn't it enough to make it so they can't damage you at all, yet won't have to spend half the age catching up to their buddies?

The reason why raze is more powerful is because it gives the person who does the raze no incoming acres.

Scenario 1:
Person does Trad gains 50 acres +50
Person who gets hit loses 50 acres -50
(Lets not take pool gains into consideration)
The difference between the 2 provinces will be 100 acres.

Scenario 2:
Person who does raze gets no incoming acres,but razed 80 acres off the opponent. +0
Person who gets razed loses 80 acres -80
Difference = 80 acres

That is not "too strong" imo. :)

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Originally Posted by VT2

"There should never be only one good way to do anything in Utopia." That's why being able to raze acres in war is bad, because it's a gamebreaker - like Akuma in Street fighter 2.

We don't 'need' the ability to kill people. Isn't it enough to make it so they can't damage you at all, yet won't have to spend half the age catching up to their buddies?

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Its not a game breaker. Look at the comments about reducing it by 2/3. Champ says it makes it useless, though you could still kill people. You say it will still destroy the game. You both cant be right. Its not useless if you can still take 15-30 with it and kill them. Its not a game breaker to lose 15-30 acres. If I had to double the time it took to raze kill a prov, Id prob rarely do it.

and if it takes literally half the age to catch up to buddies then they aren't getting enough help from their buddies. Utopia was always meant to be a team game, help out your poor buddies. VT2 you lead a KD, teach them to rebuild better.

The main problem is that while Trad, Massacre and other attacks are NW- related, raze isn't.
A 300 K NW prov Quadripling a 80 k NW prov razes 10% of the acres away at every hit.

I saw a "brave" 240 K oponent T/M's triple-tapping a 28 k lad of mine and destroying 25% of his remaining acres. Fun you say? Nope, just silly imho...

If I got razed to a reset a month into the game, I'd have a lot of science that needed to be rebuilt, in a very short amount of time, and a lot of raw WPA that would need to be fixed.

Those things are NOT something you can 'get more skilled at' doing, because they both take a long, long time - especially now that learns are weaker.

Back when you invested in science, this was less of a concern, and you could fit more wars in each age.
That's no longer an otion.

'Teach them better!' is not an option. If you want good science, you have to invest lots of time into it, and there's very little you can do to change this.

And yeah, that's rather silly, Mirage, but according to people like Catwalk and Pillz, it's extremely good, fun, and balanced that their fatties can 4x anyone at least twice a day, no matter who they are, for massive damage.

If I want to invest lots of time in Sci then Im not gonna war every week. IF I wanna war every week Im not gonna be sitting around pumping Sci much.

VT2 where in the game rules does it say that VT2 has to have good Science AND lots of wars or else the game is broken? You cant pick a strat you like and demand the game change to make it work for you. you instead should be looking at what the game has provided and make your strat work with it. The ones who do that the best will be the best at what they want to do. If you wanna be the warring KD with the most sciences good luck to you but dont complain the game is broken cause of it. The other warring KDs have the same science disadvantages as you do, we all play the same server.

I suggested weakening raze cause atm it allows PKing to happen too easily. PKing itself is not bad, just having it too easy to do is bad. How its gone about to make it harder is not my intent to demonstrate. Maybe just making it more NW based or maybe leaving it the same but dropping the min out of it. Some numbers would have to be looked at to see what would be best to make it balanced with other attack types. I dont have time to figure all that atm.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

@ Realest:


What you mean? Wars in those 41 ages before didn't work?

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I started playing in age 34 and razes were destroying acres. Then in some a36-38 they changed it to destroy land, and now it's back to old. From what ppl told me razes were always destroying acres except in those few ages...

Raze wasn't always available in war to begin with, and has seen the most changes out of all attacks in the game - except missionary, which started out weak, got better, ended up completely outclassed by massacre, then removed completely.

If you don't have science, you're going to be at a disadvantage. It's like not running elites.
If you have more science than your opponent, you have an advantage. It's an eternal arms race.

I don't know anyone who thinks it's fun to build a province for a month or more, then seeing it all vanish in less than a day.

the only time when RK'ing is easy, is when you actually focus on RK'ing people....

we have been in 4 wars so far, and there is nothing funnier than seeing people do 2 razes for 23 and 21 acres, and that's all the hits they make in that one round of hits...

raze is over-used, that is the problem... we have had people who tried to raze us to out-raze us, you know what happened? we ended up gaining acres from them =)

once age is over, i might post some summaries of what happens when you have nubs using raze way to much

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Originally Posted by Mirage

@ Realest:


What you mean? Wars in those 41 ages before didn't work?

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correct, wars in the building-based raze era was a max gain and dash endeavour, which is not what warring should be.

While we are removing raze I think we are missing the bigger issue. Traditional march is OVERPOWERED!!! I have seen wars where people do NOTHING but traditional marches! Have you seen a war with only razes? Something definitely needs to be done.

I don't like losing 10-15% of my land because some internet-tough-guy like VT2 is too cool to cast paradice or explore. Then his buddies attack me more and call it "chaining"?! Rebuilding is hard work and I feel like it is ruining my experience and a that of a lot of newer players. Utopia is a game for peace damn it.

Lets start with this. I will talk about plunders another day..

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Originally Posted by Bored

I fear that if you remove raze, wars would become a traditional-march fest. I think its bad for one attack to be this overpowering. I mean most wars are already mainly traditional-marches so that tells you how good it is..

Can we consider removing traditional march instead? I don't like losing 10-15% of my land because some internet-tough-guy like VT2 is too cool to cast paradice or explore. Then his buddies attack me more and call it "chaining"?! Utopia is a game for peace damn it.

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I see where you're coming from, but if you remove trad march, people will just conquest, it would overpower war heroes since that would be the personality of choice to conquest better.

You are right, there is a flaw.

Our next conquest shall be to remove conquest.

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Originally Posted by VT2

Razing for acres is bad, because it makes growth in war impossible, and turns them into slugfests about who can destroy the other side first.

Raze is bad, and makes wars even more rare than they already are.

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i understand what you're trying to say VT2, but not all wars do this. it's fair to punish everyone for someting a few kingdoms do?

our strategy in wars is to chain provinces down with TMs and raze when TM gains is less than 70 acres. this allows us to have incoming acres and not be totally screwed. If the other kingdom only razes, without incoming acres, it's a lot easier to screw up their provinces with overpop and low economy.

By only razing each other, the kingdoms just have poor strategies, imo. Maybe instead of taking raze destroying acres, those kingdoms should look into alternate strategies?

I speak from a kingdom that's been in 6 wars this age, has lost most of them, and still is in top 40. If it's so destructive, how do we stay in top 40? surely there are more than 40 kingdoms that haven't been in wars that'd be able to be on top of us, if razing is so destructive it ruins the game?

//edit

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Originally Posted by syele

but the point is that raze should be equal to or less useful than Trad.

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if raze is equal to amount of acres trad takes, there is no point in using it. if you had to choose between taking 100 acres or destroying 100 acres, why would you choose destroy them? doesn't that just weaken your own province?
the point for raze destroying 9-10% land regardless would be for when TM takes less than 50 acres, you can still raze for 60, and when TM takes 4, you can raze for 15-20.

Making raze do the same amount of TM, razing a province below 200 acres would only do 5-10 acres of damage. To me it seems silly to keep raze as an op at that point, unless you want to use it as the new anonymous, where they won't be able to ambush the acres back. then again, anonymous you still gain acres, so when you lose 500a and have 250a incoming, is a lot more helpful than having 0a incoming. .-.

in my opinion at least. maybe some people like to just lose acres and not be able to attack due to overpop unless they release more troops since they didn't have acres incoming...

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Originally Posted by Pillz

Raze killing is NOT easy to achieve in a ghetto enviroment unless the kingdom you're warring has already lost the war completely.

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Try telling that to a highly active province that was taken down to 50 acres and then 2 provinces in a row began quad tap razes without looking at his acres first. This was in a bottom 400 kingdom (Can't get much more ghetto than that) and pk was by accident. I watched it happen.


Only the hyperactive kingdoms/players really enjoy a total rebuild. Can we not come up with some other way? Is Raze the way it is the only option that we can come up with?

**Edit** Forgot to mention it was the loosing kingdom that committed the PK.

VT2 doesn't know how to use raze, which is why he never gains in wars. It's quite amusing how he thinks nobody can gain in war anymore.

I can gain just fine in wars, but when my opponent is taking out an average 8% of my kingdom's total potential offensive power each and every day, it's no longer about gaining land, but about dismantling him faster than he's dismantling me, or just staying away from war in the first place.

See the problem yet?

Isn't the whole point of a war to dismantle your opponents faster than they can dismantle you?

Wars were completely and utterly boring when raze was changed to destroying buildings instead of destroying land.

If you can dismantle your opponent properly you should be gaining lots of land in these wars even if both sides are using raze.