Fix randoming.

People who start new or defect should go to a RANDOM KD with an opening, not how it is now.

Problems with current KD placement of new players/defectees:
People can more easily create farm KDs using it.
New players have no chance to land in an established KD.
Established KDs rarely, if ever get a new player.
New players have nothing to draw on when they land in the game, no resources at all unless an odd experienced player refused great offers of top KDs and randoms instead. This is much worse than just the invite system issues.

The problem is how the game creates new kds.

kds with low provinces get filled up first - some do go to already established kds but priority goes to kds that need more players.

Exactly and that is a problem.

KD has one prov. The next 20 new players go to that one KD. You now have a KD of all new players.
A KD disbands, NO ONE is left there... next 20 new players go there... I wanna play with friends and not use invites? no problem... Tell them to all join at once we will be in the empty KD together with whatever new players are joining. Just takes a bit of timing.
Someone wants a farm KD? no prob, make accounts all at once, most will land together with noobs who dunno WTH is going on. Highly abusable.

Its not uncommon either. I tested it out. And I'm looking around me and entire new KDs are having protection together... now in year 2.

right, but what else do you expect? Force other players to leave their kds? You cant have all new players joining established kds.

Where did I say force people to leave their KD? o.O

~if every prov leaves a KD, it should be removed from the list of KDs to fill.
~Palem keeps mentioning the game is creating new KDs incorrectly, fix that too.
~if a KD has less than a certain # force merge it with another KD, it could even be a low number like 2 or 3 even
~ dont let the game make a new KD when its not waranted

new kds open up as the amount of players grow (which it tends to do as age progresses) - i dont see any suggestions on how to get experienced players into these kds. New kds are full of new players because they are the people that join random kds. You need to suggest an alternative method to what we have now. Forced merging mid age is usually something people do not want,and is avoided by having smallers kds fill up faster.

The problem was discovered in the 'Kd Size' thread. The game is creating too many kds.

As it stands, the game only needs ~259 kds (6469 provs at 25 provs per kd). There's currently 298 kds. This number is only going to rise as the age goes on. This ends up with a few kds at or nearly full and a ton of kds that are left with <20 provs that are much worse off.

I can suggest a better method.

First of all, as Palem said, create less new kingdoms. For instance, right now the game shouldn't be creating new kingdoms at all - Make it very conservative on kingdom creation. As an example the rule could be: If less than a given unitary (not percent) amount of kingdoms has empty slots (10? 20?) create a new one.

Then just place the players randomly without giving any priority. The priority won't be needed at all since there will be very few kingdoms with slots open at any time so they will all have a high chance of getting players.

I think this system would work pretty well but, if you really think it's needed, you could do priorities with a few minor tweaks. For instance, the probability that a kingdom, which has been in the slots open group (the kingdoms that can receive players), gets a player could slowly raise the longer the kingdom remains in that group (note that the number of open slots doesn't matter). This is an example of a priority system that would be an improvement on the current one in my humble opinion.

If the game allocates provinces to kd at less than 20:1 obviously there is a problem there that needs to be addressed...

Bishop: OP isn't neccessarily saying X is a solution. She's merely pointing out that a problem exists (which one does). Rather than criticzing a lack of a solution, wouldn't it be more productive to acknowledge that a problem does exist and then work from there?

I don't see where Bishop denies there's a problem. I'm sure if he had a solution, he would have proposed it.

If there are less new KDs created, then new players will land in the empty slots that are already available. A new KD should only appear if there is risk very quickly of not having any openings available. It should not happen constantly.

Since the game itself is not quickly growing, It is weird/wrong for 25 new KDs to have arrived just this week, while old KDs are struggling to fill all their spots still.

Right now New KDs are created WAY too soon. My suggestion is to fix that.

If there are 258 KDs needed to hold the players we have now, then with 298 KDs available there are PLENTY of spots for new players to land in. If I wanted to, I could have asked 10 people to sign up right when I did, getting them all in before we were too large a KD. IF I had had the luck to be the first in the KD I could have gotten even more in. Who needs invites then? If you get bad luck and land last, just delete and retry. This is too abusable.

I know there are new signups but you'd need around 1000 just to fill the KDs we have now, no new KDs are needeed right now at all.

Up to 378 Kds now. We'd need 9450 players to fill them all.
we have 6948 players in the game.

SO you really expect 2502 new accounts in the next couple days?

Solution: Stop creating so many KDs.

The conservative method sounds good, however it can also lead to adding additional stress onto KDs that cannot maintain 25 players. Since KD creation is more conservative then many of the farms/intel multi's would also end up in those KDs, putting a big onus on weaker (altho established) KDs to constantly kill these farms/multi's off. This could lead to more of those KDs members leaving and thus ultimately leading to another KD disbanding which is the last thing we want.

Yep a friend created a new account today, he ended up in his own kingdom. I'm sure that is a great time for new players who have no idea what to do. There are a lot of kingdoms with less than 25 provs around, they should be filled first.

Well see the same problem with KD size in my own kingdom. When I joined my KD it was with 21 players (so not even full) and now we are with 16 left. So 9 spaces left and they are building new KD's with 16 provinces too? Well then there must be another way to get new players fill up spaces in existing KD's first!

They problem is that there are many players jumping from kingdom to kingdom hoping to land in a good one by luck. This problem would be less severe if people tried to organize the kingdom they landed in. I realize this is hard but that's how many organized kingdoms started.

Another solution I've suggested before is to give kingdoms a refund for invitation codes if a player they invited leaves the kingdom (regardless of the reason) within 6 months (or any other reasonable period of time) after being invited. This would benefit kingdoms trying to grow out of the ghettos without allowing cheaters to create shell kingdoms.

Just want it to be said that here is another person that thinks this is a real problem. A solution would prove beneficial for 2 main reasons.

1 - Ghettos would have a larger number of players making it much easier for them to learn from each others mistakes, thus hopefully leading to less of a gap between ghetto and SKD in the long run. Due to the fact that they would be in full KDs having more fun and thus more likely to stick to the game.

2 - Players, such as myself and Syele would be less likely to give up on the game. I myself have been sitting pretty on 17-19 players pretty much since week two. It's hell. If our lives were made just that little bit easier we would be creating a KD that inspires more people to play. Creating communities such as alliances that encourage people to learn and be a part of the game. Fortunately for utopia there are people like me who have no intention of giving up on the game. Ever.

There is now 428 Kds this is ridiculous - there is currently 7086 players . meaning 284 full kds . I like the suggestion earlier of randoming new provinces or defections into existing kds , i think the problem is that you have the mark /parameter set to low for existing kds , i think this is set at 15 provinces ( before invites and randoms stop being placed in them and start new kds ), you need to up this to like 20-22 even the full 25 provinces per kd . This way new players joining have a better chance of landing in a kd that is already established . ( The majority of kds this age are between 15 and 20 provinces ( and alot of these are just newbie kds ) , where as if you set your parameter higher , we will have alot more good size kds out there . Alot more Fun and u will keep more people interested .

yea KD creation is getting out of control, something needs to be done asap about this situation!! Hell we need players atm to :P

we should all swallow our pride and really get ppl we know irl to play utopia, bribe them with jelly snakes =D (no i will not supply the jelly snakes)

New KDs

Now in Utopia we have 2 leagues of KDs:
1st 20-25 provinces
2nd - 15-20 provinces
And for today we have a strange new 3rd league:
3rd - <10 provinces
They are ugly: most of them are green.

Please, don't create a new KD until all KD have less then 15 provinces.

One thing about this issue that still bothers me; is that regardless of what number of provs is set as the limit in KD's before new KDs start to develop; there is still the likelihood that a new KD will be made and be filled with only nubs and as such the KD will never develop because they are not aware of the community support that is available both here and on IRC. Then, due to that lack of development, the players will tire of being in the bottom of the playerbase continuously getting farmed upon.

What if, and I literally thought of this just now so please don't troll me if its completely stupid, because I am still running on hype of a new idea, New KDs were only created by defectors and people that created a new province would always land in an already established KD.
What I mean by this is currently each time you defect your province is reduced/damaged in most/all aspects by a certain %. Keep that for the first defection of the age, but add as a penality for the 2nd and third defections something along the lines of "As you have defected once before you have gained a certain notoriety. Because of this you have no choice but to stake out a position in this world on your own."
- edit Perhaps give it as a choice on the second defection but then make no other option for the third.

As i type this I am really growing to like this idea... simply because it vastly increases the likelihood that any new person creating a province will land in a KD that has experienced players in it. Also it gives existing players a legitimized way to start a new KD from scratch [rather than the current method of getting all your friends to create at the same time and land in the small KD, thus negating the need for invitations, ofcourse you would have to also, still, change the mechanic that each new province lands in the smallest KD or the same problem would still occur].

If there is a concern that too many people will do this and there will be defectors creating a large number of single prov KD's all at once [I am sure this can be predicted by simply looking at the number of 2nd and 3rd tier defections that occur per age, something I assume the admins can contrive] then rather than make each defector create a whole new KD simply make them join only KDs with less than 5 [or any number contrived by calculating a factor the from number of 2nd and 3rd tier defections per age/week/w/e] players and in the case that one doesn't exist then they create a new KD.

As per my post on the 18th Nov its a week later , we have now got 453 kds ( 428 last week ) and the number of provinces has gone from 7086 provinces to 7072 . I cant see how losing 14 provinces in a week can create 25 new kds . This is 1 of your main problems with keeping new players to the game , if when they join they end up starting in a kd with half a dozen other newbies .

You need to random the new provinces into existing kds and build there numbers up above 20 . I have friends kds who would love to have 5 - 10 newbies land in there kd , so they could maybe get a few players that stick around . ( i know they will have to kill inactives but im sure they would be willing to kill 10 inactives to get 2-3 stayers )

Ive recruited twice this age from freshly formed newbie kds , and found 1/2 the people i talk to are returning players from 5+ years ago , nearly all have said that being put in a kd full of nothing isnt worth them even returning to the game .

I am just gonna say bump. And pray that there are actually people who have power reading this thread, because.. omg it just seems so obvious to me and yet all I hear are poor little utopians trying to make a difference and getting no where....

Please don't turn me into a troll like VT2... let me and and all the other players help. Let us please help....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Debauchery

As per my post on the 18th Nov its a week later , we have now got 453 kds ( 428 last week ) and the number of provinces has gone from 7086 provinces to 7072 . I cant see how losing 14 provinces in a week can create 25 new kds . This is 1 of your main problems with keeping new players to the game , if when they join they end up starting in a kd with half a dozen other newbies .

You need to random the new provinces into existing kds and build there numbers up above 20 . I have friends kds who would love to have 5 - 10 newbies land in there kd , so they could maybe get a few players that stick around . ( i know they will have to kill inactives but im sure they would be willing to kill 10 inactives to get 2-3 stayers )

Ive recruited twice this age from freshly formed newbie kds , and found 1/2 the people i talk to are returning players from 5+ years ago , nearly all have said that being put in a kd full of nothing isnt worth them even returning to the game .

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I'll bump too. Agree totally.

Yeah bump too! Good that it's pointed out in the age 49 changes too! This urgently need to be fixed

New update 1st December - 482 Kds - 7096 provinces ( change + 29 Kds + 24 provinces ) ( Total change + 54 Kds + 10 provinces )

25th November - 453 kds - 7072 provinces ( change + 25 Kds - 14 provinces )

18th November - 428 kds - 7086 provinces

As you can see in 2 weeks we have gained 54 kingdoms and only gained 10 players - so thats an average just under 0.5 players per kd . Please help me figure this out .

I think you can easily put more effective parameters on what KD people join.

1) At end of age auto merge any KD's that can.
2) start of next age fill KD's starting with KD's at 15 provinces. Any smaller KD's should have been merged.
3) at any point if a KD drops below 10 players stop sending it people. They can play out the age as a group of 10 if they want and then get merged next age...
4) only put a province in a new KD aka start a small kd if every single slot is full (I have not noticed all top kds to be full at anypoint so i dont know why you would create more kds)

What is problem with a method like this?

yes this is insane. i would like to build a kingdom but it just impossible recruit if you only have 4-5 players. ive got a couple of players who have returned to the game and are very experienced BUT we are going to pull the plug at EOA because of the lack of any future. who wants to play in a 5 person ghetto??? You claim to be punishing the top level cheaters by creating mini ghetto farms. me thinks you are punishing everyone who is not in a top kingdom.

it always takes ages to convince bishop that a problem exists :P

its not really important to convince me, i don't make decision on the game. I do like to clarify things though.

here's your fix in mysql:

kds = whatever kingdoms table you use.
kds.count = number of provinces in each kd... im not sure how you have it set up... maybe you would have to join province table with kd table. Depends on your setup.

$sql="SELECT * FROM kds WHERE kds.count<20";
$row=mysql_fetch_assoc(mysql_query($sql));
if($row>0){
create new kingdoms
}else{
don't create new kingdoms
}


It's that easy. Just don't create new kds if there is even one kingdom out there with less then 20 provinces. If you already have code like that in place then up the number from 20 to 25. And just fill kds up to 25 before making new ones.

I know this doesn't really mean much seeing as age has finished , but i still want to point out the stupidity of it .

New Update 6th December - 512 Kds - 7105 provinces ( change + 30 Kds + 9 provinces ) ( Total change + 84 Kds + 19 provinces )

1st December - 482 Kds - 7096 provinces ( change + 29 Kds + 24 provinces ) ( Total change + 54 Kds + 10 provinces )

25th November - 453 kds - 7072 provinces ( change + 25 Kds - 14 provinces )

18th November - 428 kds - 7086 provinces

LOL we have gained 84 kingdoms and only gained 19 players - so thats an average just under 0.25 players per new kd .
You have to be joking .

This really needs to be rectified , so all kds are having above 20 provinces in them - like the good old days when you were still lucky to get new players and defects even if you had 22 people . I haven't seen this in along time .

bump

Net Worth Rank 512 of 512

when we got it the first time there was slightly above 300 kds afaik :x

I don't care about any other change that happens during this new age besides this one! I went through the kingdoms, hitting "Random" every time, and well over half of the kingdoms had less than 20 prov's, most of them having less than 15 prov's.

The rate at which the game is growing isn't as fast as the program seems to think it is! Now, I'm have absolutely no idea how programing works, so I obviously can't offer any advice on how to fix this, but I do know that it HAS to be fixed before we worry about what races we tweak!

In early rounds I actually enjoyed building up ghetos to decent kingdoms then turning them over to someone else, move on random and build up another gheto. Took a few years off, then after a few rounds to get the feel of the changes decided to give that a go again. After ending landing in a number of kingdoms that had used up all their invites and had no active players just a few randoms that showed up and apparently decided they didnt like what they saw as they wouldnt respond to ingame forum or in game messages and diseapeared w/in a few days, or occasionally got a few other experienced players who randomed in and agreed to stick around to try and build a kingdom then got discouraged after a few weeks when we either got no provinces in, or more provinces that didnt like what they landed in and either deleted, stayed inactive or moved on without a word in most cases. Finally gave it up as a lost cause and took an invite to an established kingdom. Unless they fix the way they handle the random kingdom generation dout I would care to have another go at it. I agree with others who have suggested that as is the odds of keeping new players who might happen to give utopia a try is pretty slim as they are not likely to learn the game in gheto hell, and unlikely to stick around long.