is it against the rules to blaintenly enter into a fake war because your to chicken **** to fight? a simple yes or no answer will suffice. It get better SoA are letting them feed on them. what happened to fair and honorable play?
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is it against the rules to blaintenly enter into a fake war because your to chicken **** to fight? a simple yes or no answer will suffice. It get better SoA are letting them feed on them. what happened to fair and honorable play?
Quote:
Originally Posted by brickwolfman
no.
I got a question about fw to ill borrow this thread. when you hit a kd and then enter fw and get retalled, is there a penalty on the opnonents honor gains or is it similar to land that the penalty increase to 24 hours?
I think all gains are diminished when hitting into a war. The game cannot determine what is real and what is fake.
Unfortunately fake wars are widely accepted in the community. If you were to analyze it according to the rules you might have a small, weak case in regards to these points in the Game Rules:
"Spirit of the Rules
Players attempting to manipulate rules and quirks of the game in ways obviously not intended may be subject to deletion. Because of their nature, these types of circumstances are considered on a case-by-case basis. Users should avoid actions they believe are against the spirit and intent of the game.
Fair & Honorable Play
The operators of the game aim to maintain the highest standards of ethics within the game. Any instance of inappropriate language, manipulation of bugs, or acts of deception/fraud can result in immediate removal from the game. We rely on our users to help us enforce these rules and provide an enjoyable gaming environment for users of all ages and backgrounds."
Its a pretty weak argument though. At the end of the day it would be interesting to ask the developers if they created the war system with the intention of allowing KDs to use it for that purpose and employ the hit & run tactics + hideouts that you see in the current game.
There were fake wars,Peace Blocking ,War Blocks and many tactics used to pump long before OMAC/JOLT.Sean&Brian ever heard about this game.Has nothing to do really with just the current game.Its part of the history of the game also.Whether everyone likes it or not.
When they make rebuilding after wars faster,Alot of kingdoms wont have to use Fake wars to keep what they just gained.They added the extra day this age trying to help in this atleast.
I would argue that far from being small and weak, infractions under either of those codes should in fact be amongst the most serious - much like bringing a professional sport into disrepute by generating a negative image of the sport amongst other players or the public at large.Quote:
Originally Posted by DDodge
UD hitting out of FW's or into other Wars produces such a negative impact on players affected by such abuses and can result in people quitting, restarting and spreading the negative image of that throughout the rest of the playerbase.
Again tho, people have hit into and out of wars since the game started.This isnt anything new ,Cant imagine some of the posts we would see here from years back when alliance wars raged almost every age with huge numbers involved.
Yes some undeads are doing this,but it isnt the end of the world.Deal with it.
so since people have been abusing the game without any consequences for a while lets just accept it and not try to make the game better in hopes of growing it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder TA
i like your logic :) u must be one of the cowards that fake war lol
Indeed they have, and I've been involved in an alliance war (TF/AoD, on the TF side) when I played seriously. However, there was a clear choice on my part to be involved in an alliance and all the conotations that involved; such as the possibility of alliance wars and intereference into wars / hostiles. I was well prepared for such possibilities and it never bothered me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder TA
I would say, by contrast, in this situation the people who get stung by it by and large have made no such committments and are simply 'normal' players looking for wars. Or in some cases even minding their own business and then being randomed by Ud's in FW.
If anything the "yes some undeads are doing this" hits the nail on the head, i.e. it's not considered a big enough (in terms of people committing the offence) issue to make it worth-while enforcing. Which is a poor reason for not choosing to enforce something, particularly given how negatively it impacts on the people affected. I suspect if half the server went Ud next age and sat in FW all age randoming other people the attitude might change.
FW are neccesary at higher levels of play. i use it to pump w/o fear of retales. do i let my undead hit oow, sometimes. depends if they need leets. its crappy gains but gains are still gains. being able to hit oow with no losses is a small bonus considering its a weaker attacker race to say orc or avian.
Actually no ,Cant say ive ever fake warred for you information.I just dont cry about everything like some seem to do,shoe fit ?Quote:
Originally Posted by aevin
At some point the Devs will deal with Undeads and make it not worthwhile.Until then stop blowing attacking into and out of war all crazy like its something new.Its went on since Beta.Most attack out of FWs the 1st 24 hours before gains are limited.Doesnt mean they cant be attacked in return also.
FW isnt the problem - its what happens once the FW starts that needs to be looked at. IE X runs to FW and hits out = should have huge huge negatives to make it less attractive.
That we call a farm war and if one team is letting an ally farm them then that should get reported and there is most likely some punishment in place.Quote:
Originally Posted by brickwolfman
FWs are looked down on by people who dont understand why they are needed but farming an ally/friendly kingdom is hated by all of utopia and should be delt with.
On the other hand you could just be making up crap - you need proof!
It is simple, kingdoms that use FW as a tactic are weak, and if my KD will ever use it, I'll quit. For me personally it is not done. Respect to those kd's that do not use it.
Good tactic? Bad tactic? Just because you disagree with something doesn't make it altogether wrong.
The reason it can be argued as wrong is because the intentions of the war system are for two KDs to engage in a 1v1 fight until a winner is determined. The war system, from day one, was not intended to be entered into with another KD when there's no intention of fighting.
Im not arguing that its wrong, just underlining the reasons behind the argument.
As i wasnt there when Mehul wrote the program,i wont try to determine his intentions ,nor reasons for doing things as he did.Altho for many years and despite many changes to the game he never obviously felt the need to restrict kds from attacking into or out of wars..As neither have any of the past or current Devs.
As Flutter said.just because you or i dont agree with something doesnt mean its wrong.Doesnt mean at some point it might not be changed either. But does mean in 11 + years they have seen no reason to change it sofar.
Who said that?Quote:
Originally Posted by DDodge
Edit: This is the closest thing I can find to the original intentions of warring...
Nothing about 1v1 fights or intent of fighting...Quote:
Originally Posted by Age 3 guide
Fake war is not allowed, but nor is it actioned. If this changes there will be an announcement.
How do you know this when you have only been playing since age 35?? Hitting in/out of war wasn't as usual as it is currently. Kingdoms dont respect each other anymore (with a few exceptions perhaps) and even small kingdoms abuse everything they can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder TA
Just look at E_Boko for example who even says he let his undeads hit from fakewar...
Fact is you can't automate a system that scans for fakewars simply because there are so many reasons to work around it.
If X hits need to be made you simply set that up with your FW partner. Problem solved.
FWs are not neccecary anymore. 72 hours should give enough time to get in decent shape. Sure there is exceptions for extremely destructive and long wars, but you cant make a rule depending on a select few %.Quote:
Originally Posted by E_Boko
1.) If you want to enforce "spirit of the game" rules or whatever, then you have to specifically lay down certain things. TBH, I find people making one hit per day in a war to be more of an issue than fake wars. Delete the inactive players so I don't have to waste my kingdom's time razing people out of the kingdom because they can only make one hit per 24 hours.
2.) Until Brian & Sean make a post about FWs I won't believe they are against the rules (Sorry Bishop, you have been known in the past to be wrong. Often. About major things.)
3.) About hitting into/out of fake wars: They are penalized just as you are. You want to retal, go ahead. They aren't making huge hits. Half the time it's only for elites anyway and they don't care about the acres.
4.) Hitting into/out of FWs has been around from the Dawn of Utopia, prot. It was actually fairly common at various points, although the rarity seemed to wax and wane.
5.) Vacation Mode is another issue just as common as FWs. Hiding in VM to protect yourself. Yet it is rarely "actioned" either.
6.) If wars were originally meant to be 1v1, how come you used to be able to have 5 at once or whatever? You used to be able to declare 2 and have 3 more declared on you (Or vice versa).
7.) What Dodge meant about "small, weak case" was that looking at the rules there was a "small, weak case" for arguing that they were against the spirit of the rules and/or against fair gameplay. He didn't mean that infractions against the spirit of the rules or against fair gameplay had a "small, weak case" for being disciplined. The rules do not state that it is a violation, it has been a very widespread practice for 50+ ages, and multiple owners/dev teams have not seen any reason to change the way it works. That would indicate that they don't care if people use the war system for "fake" wars.
8.) Nice jumping to conclusions, aevin, about someone you know nothing about.
9.) Fuzzy, so the -75% gains and such are not huge penalties? Enlighten me then.
Fake war is against the rules but is specifically not actioned - I'm not interested in peoples opinions about this, it is fact.
If you know of someone abusing VM please report them.
godly!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
Never said i had been playing only since 35 .Thats a kd Date.
As most know ive been here since almost the beginning..It was actually probably used more in the teens and twenties than it is now.During the big alliance wars it was common for multiple kds to PK someone tied down in a war.Hell even Scott 250 remembers that.Old Hall,AA,RAT used to do it all the time.Seems alot have forgot how the game used to be or werent here for it.
I'm fine with ud's hitting me from oow, as long as they are fine with being razed in return.
The very simple solution is to take action when it happens...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
Suspend the 25 provinces for 48 hours. Simple, effective.
1.) Again, until Brian or Sean posts and says it is against the rules, I do not see it as being against the rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
2.) To followup with point 1, if it IS against the rules, it needs to be actioned, instead of the dev staff acting like cuckolds (Knowing everyone is cheating on you and not doing anything about it.) I would say any case that can be proven to be a FW would result in the monarchs being deleted. That should put the fear of devs into people when a few high-profile names get deleted. And if nothing else make people actually work for their FWs.
Brian and Sean are the devs, but guess who the game admin is? Bishop. Nobody really cares what you think is or isn't against the rules Che.
As for DDodge, not everyone should get suspended, but I think the monarchs and any provinces used to trigger the fake war should be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DHaran
they should just be pushed out of fw imo, and all provs set to peasants for being such dishonorable people! :O
48 hour suspension is a frickin *huge* punishment, that kind of thing will kill kds super quick.
And if Brian & Sean say "FWs are not against the rules" or "We don't really care if people use them" then all that "admin" power does very little good regarding FWs. All I'm saying is they need to pick a stance on FWs and then back up that stance with action. If you are going to say something is against the rules, then grow a pair and start enforcing it, or else don't say it's against the rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by DHaran
If I went out and shot someone, it is against the law. If the justice system did nothing to me, why would I stop shooting people? It doesn't make any sense to make rules you are unwilling to enforce. "Fear our non-binding resolutions!"
If they ARE breaking the rules, we don't really care about that. They need a punishment that will deter those actions. If all that happens is they get pushed out of a FW (After taking advantage of the FW for however long they were in it before the action was taken) there is no discouragement. Run into FW for 12-24 hours and get pushed out again after you've had a chance to get troops home and everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Snowstorm
If kingdoms are concerned with dying off due to this change, don't break the rules.
this post is spam (but it has been fried and is quite tasty)
... (stupid post limit to do a pm)
Che do you even understand why it hasn't been acted on? First and foremost, the NEED for FWing has to be fixed. Extending EOWCF was step 1.
What is step 2 in your mind?
Fake Wars are Laaaaaaaaaammmmmeeee
Everyone who jaywalks should get 15 years in prison. herp derp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Che Guevara
why you want to kill kds off?
after you push two or 3 kds out of fw, the practice will utterly stop anyways, why you want to kill 2-3 kds and lose players from the game?
Think JSS's proposal to just boot KDs out of FW should be be good. I'm quite sure people will think twice before triggering FW knowing a few kingdoms have been kicked out already.
Wow, you have no concept of anything, do you, John? People who jaywalk and get a ticket for it pay a fine. A two-day suspension is not 15 years in prison. If I had said to delete everyone in the kingdom who FW'd, that would be different. Pushing people out of a FW does nothing, unless it happens within the first hour. Obviously you don't know anything, or you wouldn't keep posting on here.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Snowstorm
I never said to kill kingdoms off, if you recall, the suspending accounts was not my suggestion, and I don't agree with it. However, I do think the leadership needs to be held accountable for breaking rules as a kingdom. Delete the leaders and the practice will utterly stop. They can come right back in, no worries, they just have to start over again. It means they fear for their province when they break the rules, the same as everyone else who breaks the rules. It is not a kingdom-crippling thing, but it very much hurts a kingdom's goals if they lose a province late in the age.
Anyway, jaywalking is a bad analogy, because it doesn't really hurt anyone, and is only illegal in big cities for the most part. Going into a FW and using it as protection does hurt people, so it's more of a case of assault or armed robbery.
Tell me what the point of getting kicked out of FW is? They still get SOME benefit from the FW for however long it takes someone to look into the FW and then they kicked kicked out of FW with no penalties. Yes, it's not as beneficial as a full length FW, but there are no penalties to it. If anything, you would see MORE FWs among the lower level kingdoms that don't want to spend 48+ hours to get out of a situation so they manage to get a FW (Believe me, anyone can get a FW easy enough it isn't like it's only the top-kd's domain.) After 12 hours they get kicked out of FW, with their meter reset and in better shape than when they entered.
hell yeahQuote:
Originally Posted by Lead Pipe
1: You're in a for a nasty surprise if you think my statments are just idle chat. FW is against the games rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Che Guevara
2: Time to learn your uto history. There is a moratorium on actioning fw, just like there was with accounts traded several years back.
Roisin also said it wouldn't be actioned and this statement will be honored until the current devs decide to action fw - ideally the reason for fw should be eliminated first, but it wouldn't take much to stop it. None of this (support stuff) is currently scalable though.Quote:
Originally Posted by DHaran