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For your kd (and I'm assuming your kd is not a whoring kd) to try whoring for an age?
Keep in mind a couple things:
1. Doesn't mean you can't war. You're more than welcomed to war.
2. You don't need to have the goal of crowning, just see how high you can finish.
So...what would it take?
remove magic from game - that much would take
The bulk of the server doing the same so that when we look for a war (6 to 8 per age) we have more then 1 or 2 options, and those options have not been hoarding gc and science on some ridiculous draft % for weeks due to cfs.
For the last 2-3 weeks of an age, my former kingdom liked to whore, see how far we could get. Was generally a lot of fun, even in kd setups not made for whoring. With the current races and persona's, I quit playing since everything I like to play is just not good enough or will take way to long to build up. So for me to start trying to whore (ie play again), either make leets not ridiculously expensive or have an alternative way of getting them for every race.
For most of the server, the only way to rise on charts is to fight wars and win, but that will only go so far.
A button that serves as a way to say "nevermind" - insta land drop that keeps your exact per/acre numbers for everything but just changes your acres, to be used once per age (lol)
Not really serious, but I think the biggest worry with whoring is realizing half way through the age you have no shot at coming in the top 3, and are stuck in no man's land in terms of options for warring.
I'm sure a way to auto land drop isn't an option, but doing it through giving acres has other problems of giving up honor, inflating sci/wpa ect to make find wars very hard, as a few kds that have went for whoring and "failed" have experienced.
For me, and I assume the rest of my KD though I can't actually speak for them, it's simply a case of what interests us. Personally I like the game from a solely war based setup.
That being said, I have wondered what it is like to try and whore for an age, though I don't think that would be a popular suggestion so haven't bothered raising it. So to answer your question, the 24 other members of our KD agreeing to a whoring age, with a real plan/setup and a reasonable chance to accomplish some form of goal.
the most annoying thing about trying to grow isn't winning, it's the obnoxious FSU kingdoms met along the way.
To me it's a matter of perception. Plenty of war kingdoms are knocking on the door, they just need to have faith in their players to run persona/race that can compete up top. I sited a few last age that at least had race figured out. Cowing is really where your troubles start in that you have an acre farm sticking out.
First, make sure you're dangerous to farm and get prepared in freeze. Freeze prep, eowcf are the two biggest failures I see in a lot of potential explorer kingdoms. Palem is right; you will find war. Those most likely from the girth kingdoms. This is why you need provinces that can perform outside nw range and get bang for your buck in hostile.
People need to get over the victim complex and embrace the challenge. If you're looking for war crown, then yes look elsewhere. But, if you're one of the many that seek a full Utopian experience why not engage top kingdoms? See how they work. See what you can trim to get efficient.
Zauper and Crazy Pete were nice enough to post exploring how-2 in Strategy. Think about it in stages: learn to be dangerous. Diplomacy through power equals one-hand-washes-the-other. Harness your savvy in knowing how to be dangerous through simple diplo and then you can start to look at cowing. Never forget rule #1 ~ be dangerous ~
The problem is that smaller less experienced kingdoms will just get farmed by the bigger more experienced kds, and this is discouraging. However, nowadays with so few kds and such good memories, the bigger kds take more risk feeding on little guys and abusing their advantage. The really smart small kds are the ones who fireball and fools gold the bigger kds cows who give relations, but those kds are few and far between. On the flip side, the bigger kds act more reasonably now, usually only taking 1 wave or select hits for a CF that lasts a good chunk of weeks.
I would encourage smaller kds to grow and try to compete for land, but we need to see a shift in the top kds attitude towards smaller guys to do it. But that's hard, because a kd like BB might be nice and offer a cf for a kd to grow and compete, but then another kd like Pyros will swoop and take as much as they can. So it becomes a race to rape little kds asap.
I don't know the solution to the problem, but this seems to be the main hurdle.
I think the key component that most kingdoms miss out on is not having a whatsapp channel filled with aehtak selfies.
Just to clarify, are you also asking what would it take for ghettos to use their explore pool? I guess devs can include KD rank in explore formula. If your KD is less than 40-50 in KD land rank then your explore cost should decrease drastically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
What would it take? I imagine the removal of the existing professional whoring kingdoms from the game. ;)
Honestly, who else has a chance? Even if a kingdom were to try whoring, they'd be at a disadvantage in skill and know-how right off the bat, not to mention connections for ceasefires, then simply become farms for the larger kingdoms that got bigger sooner. More land for the top kingdoms across the board. Heck, why not just call it chart-shaping? That's a popular buzz-term nowadays. :)
They need to bring back genesis server to mix everyone up so the more experienced can teach the less experienced.
I agree with ABA.
For those that have never experienced whoring, you should join a whoring kingdom for at least 1 age. It will make you x5 he player you are going back to waring and ghetto play. This is a BoH promise.
On Genesis people were too busy experimenting and goofing around, I honestly think there are very few highly experienced players anymore that would want to spend the time teaching while on a Genesis-style server.
Even though I'm not in a ghetto (no Elit!) here's my viewpoint:
What I get from some of the previous comments are the following issues:
1. we try to explore up but we get farmed;
2. we have difficulties getting cfs;
3. we are afraid of top kds so we won't even try;
4. we don't like to play for 5th-10th place;
5. we don't want to do major chart shaping (see 1.);
As mentioned before, when you have a dedicated kingdom of 25 players, there's always options to compete in the top charts. But it takes careful preparations at EoA and freeze time. Warring kingdoms trying to whore could always go for advice to more experienced players on IRC. I'm quite sure some of the most knowledgable players would be willing to give you some pointers. All you need to do is ask.
So let's address the issues above then.
Issue #1 relates to the comments about all the crazy and boring CFs the top kingdoms have. The only reason why those CFs are there is because none of the top kingdoms is going to let another kingdom put up a cow without a CF. Simply put: we'll not allow you to create a tool that can destroy us and have zero time to prepare. So those top kingdom CFs are mutually beneficial; both kingdoms will have nothing to fear and can explore up. For the How-2, please look at the threads created by Zauper and Crazy Pete in Strategy section.
Issue #2 can be a real pain. Without CFs, you'll have a very hard time. Even though the top kingdoms can drive a hard bargain, you should be able to settle things. Communication is key; talk to the right people on IRC and always remember: the top kingdoms NEED the CFs to be safe.
Issue #3 is simple: grow a pair of balls
Issue #4 can be an age-killer. For PyroManiaCs age 61 was over around YR4. There was very slim chance to win a crown and it required BB/AMA to majorly screw up. You need to stay focussed on just improving yourself and your kingdom. We practiced homespump a few times last age, simply because we had never done it before. We now have the concept down and comfortably use it when we get the chance.
Issue #5 is the farmout option. This is most likely to happen when kingdoms decide they have nothing left to play for and then just roll over and farm out to whoever comes first. Thing is: the kingdoms that want the acres still have to take them....they may have something to offer in return but if they try to take them by force, always remember that you have nothing left to play for and they need it for the #1/2/3 spot. It only takes a few hits on a cow to negate WEEKS of preparation. Just look at what Remote did 2 ages ago.
Those were my 2 cents.
P.S. Someone said something about landdrops costing you honor etc...then you made a ****ty deal. The harsh lesson you needed to learn is that you need to come to PyroManiaCs instead of BB/AMA/CR and we'll anon all our hits so you won't lose a single point of honor.
to me Palem, I think shorter ages is the big thing. With long ages, is you screw up, you can't try again for some time. shorter ages would probably do more for this.
hmmm. It just never appealed to me in the slightest.
I'm poor so maybe I'd try it if I got paid for it. haha.
Seriously though, I always liked that utopia has multiple ways to success. Is there some shortage of whoring KDs?
What it would take for most KD's is a change in additude and some knowledge.
The change in additude is basicly what Faegan listed as point 3. And ofcourse stop with the victim complex.
Knowledge on the different strategies needed to keep yourself from becomming a farm on higher size can be found quite easy.
Homespump:
Explained it to CJ even though they are 1 of our key opponents.
Putting up cows:
See the strategy boards.
How to get CF's:
Explained it to I think 10+ KD's so far this age. Atleast 20 KD's 2 ages ago when we whored. Same KD's CR was hitting for acres. Bad strategy perhaps for CR since I limit our safe targets group, but I rather see more then less competition.
Any other questions? Make an effort. Go on irc, ask around.
Offense is the best defense. If you have provinces that can threaten others at oop you will be left alone and can force CFS. So many times we still see provinces on low off, high def and explored acres.
Whoring is just like warring, but it is all age.
Also comes down to the language players want to hear. You can imagine, in some war kingdoms the pursuit of exploration might be a tough sell. I never get this madness. You can see some war kingdoms getting accidentally big by winning. It's because of this winning I ride war kingdoms about setup.
They don't need a war build to win. They're good enough to switch out personality and races to war with alternative builds with growth potential. By the same token, any player could look at BB last age and the 16 orcs and realize they're standing in their own way.
The argument you can't find war means you can't find war to win. Again, fair argument. But, if you want exploring war just be a diplomacy vegetable. Fear of failure is a terrible thing in a game. I think some brilliant people are in top kingdoms. I think a lot of players sell themselves short.
Did you know that every numerically based strategy I see in Strategy forum is lost on me? I honestly can only perceive the generalities. That's how I play. Now if I can't see the numbers I don't get why the people that can are afraid to explore.
Infinate explore pool and decrease exploring costs. Tops kds will still win by a big margin but smaller kds will get the chance to have provinces above 3k-4k acres. That way they'll see how economy and pumping works at that sizes and then you can start implementing barriers again.
If you were asking me to design a game system whereby warkds / non current top kds could be competitive in the hunt for the land crown, palem, i'd look for the following:
1) Make attacking 1x/day competitive with attacking 2-3x/day. (raise base attackspeed; change +/- hours to not be bad; add a building that buffs gains)
2) Remove DBE. It's not logical for noobs, and synergizes well with item 1.
3) Remove mills; remove or rework arms, schools, libs
4) Potentially remove the explore pool(?); though the above probably works.
5) Remove the stupid uncapped science and science draft system. Cap the bonus and make it purchasable.
If you combine that with forcing some sort of diplo/mentality shift on the top kds (pre-agreed deal between them and others, potentially agreeing that it can be enforceable by bishop?) to remove duration CFs, arranged wars, etc from the game -- so that there are three states:
not currently attacking that kingdom, currently attacking that kingdom, and NAP'd with that kingdom. (enforced by the game, unbreakable).
These changes combine to do a few things --
1) They make sustained activity less important for being competitive. This is generally a good thing for the game, since it makes it more viable as a browser/FB-like game, and doesn't require people to hit at awkward times consistently.
2) They remove the consistent advantage for starting larger (and the disadvantage for warring). If you have more acres, you can get more science points than anyone else (and in the current system, can afford to have more peasants/acre than anyone else since you just need to be safe vs ghettos), and those science points translate into strength. This makes the game more dyanmic
3) It removes the diplo cluster**** that makes entering the top difficult.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauper
I support this
Oh, the other thing I forgot to mention is shifting the game back to land-based gains.
Though honestly, if you're successful with the diplo shift piece (i.e. you can't make any term CFs), it would be less important because there would be much much much less room to manipulate nw to make hits.
One of the problems with land-based gains before was having superpumped provs with very high science. I think capping science and instituting land-based gains would go hand-in-hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauper
The removal of the honor and war win charts.
The removal of honor from the game
The removal of the #/# war wins/wars from the kd page.
Probably goodz is right.
When I explained I was doing my own homepump in a kingdom last age there was zero interest. I know you tops give advice, but I like to explode something to see how it works. It exploded.
Actually a lot of this is generational to my way of thinking. People know how to comply but few know how to key off teamwork in an instinctive way. You watch a basketball game and see a blind pass behind the back that turns into an easy layup. In this game you'd simply have a lot of broken noses.
It's not that guys/gals are dim, they just haven't exposed themselves to faith in one another. As in the basketball analogy, I'm watching to bail you out. It's basically caring about the whole with a bias to do what orders say to do.
This game appeals to numerical control. It attracts a disproportionate number of people who need the numbers to jibe and they gravitate to known safety. It's everywhere you look. Wars decided before they're fought, and part of the reason is all have perscibed to the same known quantities. It's why war kingdoms can't breech. The best numerically driven kingdoms always beat those that aren't aware of a formula they never bothered to investigate. And they won't because it's an unknown quantity. It's clear to me which kingdoms have creative thought and they are the most dangerous. Yes they do numbers, but they approach from both weapons above the game and creative bias to what works.
plus a guy makes a no look pass and you praise him, but how about the guy who is right where he is supposed to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by StratOcastle
Buff eowcf. Remove explore penalty from eowcf.
With 24 hour protection and 5k acres at start, if you don't get ahead early you will be warring forever to leap frog people. This is a fun mechanic, but only works if there is a way to overcome the fact that after your first win(even if you win big) you might have half your total potential acres in a pool that you can't even use.
So I've started ages with a couple of these war kingdoms that had the smarts and activity to attempt a cow and it didn't happen. As was said here by maximouse, tops won't let you build a monstrosity that endangers their well being. I see this as stage one: try. See what comes your way. It's not the end of the world. See how it's done and what you could've done.
You could also try looking for them. Tops are best at finding you, but you have to try tracking to learn tracking.
In RL I learned how to track by looking for the signs.
In RL I learned to use my blockers in football by seeing them simply as obstacles that the opposing team had to circumvent; successful block or not. It's that split second that counts. Speed is leverage, but only insomuch as you perceive.
There was a gunfighter who was obviously alive to offer this advice. When asked how he was so good despite his comparably slow draw he said: " I aim quickly " (paraphrase). The moral here is to act on evidence now and not expect a second chance with a flurry of misspent lead.
Here in Utopia when I break up my uniques into relay taps it allows me to adjust to the myriad of situation that fluctuate in war. Max, chain, ambush the guy with pricey elites. If I predict wave times I can jump the wave and press key provinces.
Organization for neatness sake is a waste and inefficient. Find the efficiency in your actions beyond knowing what numbers you need to run. When chained last age I found myself in a turtling situation and mutated into a mini-bank because ours was rendered incapable. Just attacking like some robot would've been a losing proposition. Believe in your ability to adapt and you'll find yourself in a winnable war.
So I just kind of skimmed through here. But honestly, I just don't see the appeal of building a whoring kd. I have fun warring 5+ times an age. I honestly just do not see the fun in logging in, exploring, maybe looking for a big hit every now and then, and logging off. War is full of action (most of the time). War is fun. I don't know why all the super kingdoms think warring is for losers haha (or at least, that's what Godly has led me to believe).
If I had to choose a favorite kingdom to cheer for and buy personalized jerseys for, it might have to be Pew Pew because they war all the time. They still have two links up on the throne page, for goodness sake! Haha.
I rather hit for 500-600 acres 3 times an age, compared to making 50-100 acres hits an entire age.. just saying :P
it's an addiction!
Maybe one day I'll try to join one of these whoring kd's for at least an age, see what all the rage is about. I just feel like I'd be terribly bored, and frustrated when someone else hits me for 600+ acres haha. It just seems like it's still something I need to try out one day I guess, even if I don't want to.
I'd like to see a tally of all the 9 box provinces on the server to get an idea of the potential explorer players. Yknow, the boxes on the recruit page. I'm in vac mode myself, but still clock in to attempt to keep my options open.
If it's perceived the only way to do things is how you see distribution in other kingdoms, whore or war, I'm just trying to say you can make your own way. Warseekers certainly got pretty far non-cow. I'm not even saying do it like that. Do it your way, have faith in your players ability to fight with economy based builds and only draw advice that applies. I can certainly see a scenario where tops simply want more available acres from naive explorers. Yeah, I thought of that to. That's why I preach about bringing the danger.
Do you know how to dismantle a dwarf core? Do you know how to deal with that and tear down a cow? Might as well look it over just for kicks. When a dangerous kingdom gets hit by a number of ' random ' kingdoms do you track them? You should.
Warring is fun, I won't deny that. I think exploring is sold short because it encompasses even more of the game. If we could track the players that may be interested it'd go a long way. Some simply enjoy the culture they know. I have the advantage of seeing many kingdom cultures and know there are individuals strewn all over the game that would be ideal if they simply embraced the challenge as a joy in gaming.
i thought cowing was supposed to be dead?
it is good in a few ways. The intra kd competition for growth in a relative bubble when outside of war is fun. Warring 2-4 times an age against great competition is better then warring 6x where only 1-2 wars is against good competition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anatak1989
I have fun doing both but ultimately if you have time whoring is more fun imo. I am very much hoping to be able to play again soon :)
Cowing is dead :(
Not everyone explores. The pool gets used every few days on one/two provinces. Look at CR for example. The t5 got there by exploring but the rest have been hitting troops in/out all age.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anatak1989
Skills.