Hi all - please use this thread to comment on the potential changes. As always please remember to be constructive and stay on topic.
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Hi all - please use this thread to comment on the potential changes. As always please remember to be constructive and stay on topic.
Correction:
Sage was already at 40% Sci Effectiveness - so drop should be to 30%
The Sage
Every 4 acres generates 1 book
+40% Science Effectivness
Access to Amnesia
Starts with 40000 science books
http://forums.utopia-game.com/showth...Age-62-Changes
Thanks, edited
Human elite nw, supposed to be unchanged? Dwarves at 6/3 had 5.5 nw.
Switching training speed bonus with using credits to train elites for Avian - That is probably going to make playing Avian even worse than it already is. Major problem this age was economy - if you can't draft soldiers neither of those bonuses will help and especially making elites weaker and more expensive will make it near impossible to keep up. I liked playing Avian but I feel like the +/- of the race makes it incredibly hard and make the race way weaker than other races
why would i run anything more than the bare minimum of attackers with these changes?
well i guess the people who ***** about FS setup will really hate this age.
How will the avian elite credits function? I guess you will be able to train specs with those credits as well.
Will there be a 1:1 credit ratio for both specs and elites? Or will it be something like 2:1 for elites and 1:1 for specs?
Avian looks like they might be good now!
Edit: Or not. I just saw they could train elites with credits and got excited. The birth rate penalty is still rough, but it's definitely not unplayable.
Nice changes, couple of points:
1. If UD gets -75% losses, making them even more sustainable in war. + Higher wages for elites (good for UD as they run mix elites/specs) Then other 2 pure attacking races need more bigger boost than they got. We will again get 80% UD. Plague 24/7 war and NB try's. So if it stay should lower plague effect, or make NB more potent at healing plague.
2. Avian too weak, 6/1 is again super easy to ambush. Anon all the time and get low gains, maybe good not to bloat. But i think avian should get bigger speed bonus to at least 30%. CS is nice though
3. Boost ork more if UD changes stay.
4. Like changes to arson/fort/sage Dorfs and Humans
5. And like Ekusas said giving avian CS give Faery CS. And they almost certainly don't need CS
Its 1:1 and you can no longer use credits to train specsQuote:
Originally Posted by Winuz
Giving Faeries CS - Makes Elfs totally nonviable and Faeries insanely strong :P Seriously hope that was an oversight in giving avians CS, wich i totally like as a way to discourage the tact pick. But still CS faeries? nonononono
I like the changes, perhaps Avian needs a small buff:
AviansQuote:
Avians
-25% Attack Time
+ 30% Sabotage Operation Damage
Can train Elites with Specialist Credits (New)
(Lost training speed bonus)
-20% Birth Rate
Cannot Use Stables
Spellbook: Fanaticism, Greater Protection, Clear Sight (new)
Elite: 6/1 (down from 6/2), 750gc (up from 650), 4.75NW (down from 5)
-30% Attack Time (from -25%)
+ 30% Sabotage Operation Damage
Can train Elites with Specialist Credits (New)
(Lost training speed bonus)
-20% Birth Rate
Cannot Use Stables
Spellbook: Fanaticism, Greater Protection, Clear Sight (new)
Elite: 6/0 (down from 6/2), 600gc (down from 650), 4.5NW (down from 5) --> elites don't die when you are attacked.
The rest is spot on, love all the changes Bishop. Heads up!
Oh, and thanks for taking my spec credit concerns into consideration, makes me feel proud ^^
shortlist:
avian - elite training credits are a huge downgrade, especially since it means they can't use spec credits for specs, which you would need a lot more often. somehow they became weaker relative to other attackers, not counting the benefit of CS.
dwarf - meh. 6/2 is not something they can work with and they took a general hit from the nerf bat. i wouldn't bother with them, not with...
elf - no changes from before but with attackers being absolutely pathetic at turtling and spec-reliant, their nightmare is so much better. due to turtle ability they are arguably better as core attacker than dwarf and way better than human.
faery - they got cs. the attacker threats to them are a little stronger (and the other options are weaker), so they have a lot more danger there. still expensive as hell elite. i like them.
halfling - wtf these guys are overkill. give them rogue personality and it's game over. they can even hit pretty good.
human - full-blown aids. the 6/4 elite was what made them work at all, without it they're just gimped versions of age 62 dwarf. even if you drop their elite nw to something reasonable like 5.5, it's still horrid.
orc - little beefier on the gains, the only attacker that can expect to counter t/m. avian might pull it off but they have to be super pumped. probably the only attacker most kingdoms should even spend their time with, unless they like plague.
undead - still crap and they will continue to be crap, but they're better than humans which are full-blown aids. bring decent ns and fb along and they're toast.
merchant - basically, pick merch if you want to be dwarf without the smelliness of being dwarf, and come with some nice bonuses along with it.
sage - basically only good for faeries, and maybe elves that want amnesia. but mostly faeries.
rogue - ridic good. halfer/rogue is obvious, but fae/rogue fills the t/m niche too, and elf/rogue is a pretty convincing a/t/m if they are in a setup that can make it really work. normally i wouldn't want rogue in ghettoland but with this change they're good there, too.
mystic - not as ridic good as it was, but it had to be nerfed.
warrior - meh. if people are doing it right, dwarf and human are relegated next age, and those are the races warrior really shines against. you don't really need the penta-tap against orcs and undeads, but the extra OME is hard to go wrong with.
tactician - (mostly) counterfeits avian. orc/tactician stomps most avians, and will probably be the go-to "easy" attacker this age.
cleric - the races it works with (dwarf and human) are nerfed so bad, so basically irrelevant. noobs will still pick it with avian. has reduced synergy with undead, not that there was a whole lot to begin with.
war hero - lol should i bother?
military science - if i'm reading this correctly, mil science is getting nerfed. this just puts the game even more in favor of t/m races, as attackers (already frail) don't get their primary science. bigger nerf to avian. i'm really liking orc.
arson changes - seems fine to me. the part where rogues were ridic good though? throw in "mandatory".
fortified changes - eh okay.
specialist credit decay - need to know more. i think it's a fair idea and something that slightly works against t/m.
elite wages - i oppose them on principle, because it's going to have the opposite effect of what is intended; i.e., the kingdom that can pump absurd elites is also likely to have money banked to pay wages long enough for their pump advantage to turn into econ advantage, so what happens is that kingdoms that are less-pumped get penalized for having elites w/o economy. please don't implement them. if it comes to that though, chalk one more advantage for t/m types.
all in all - first time in a few ages i've felt the race changes were a step back. mechanic changes besides the elite wages thing are all either positive or mainly neutral. making t/ms strong isn't necessarily a bad thing. i prefer to have attackers that balance off/def, creates more options than compulsory suiciding, but i can see how at the top that makes things more annoying. humans, avians, and dwarves need to be better, in order of which needs the most improvement to the least. undead is fine because it's a newbie race and plague is potentially decent. personalities are mostly fine (even though i say rogue is ridic good, they probably need to be good in order to work). halfling/rogue and fae/rogue are bananas.
wow..... Is this april fools day or what?!
If you guys really want to go with these changes you are killing the game...
You basically made everything suck (no thats not the same as balanced) and made attackers even more useless.
Ah well I guess the big guy upstairs decided utopia had a long enough run...
War Hero is still irrelevant. Give it a Dragon Slaying bonus and maybe even good KDs will run it.
i feel like having failed huge on this age, so they needed to buff them :( seriously, did we play that bad?Quote:
Originally Posted by noobium
I usually don't worry about the changes or the suggestions, but yours is the most sensible I've seen. I was thinking along the lines of a spell switch, but it would've required a cascade of changes. Good work Bukharistan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bukharistan
Bukharistan you only love the changes because it makes your favorite setup stronger compared to the rest of the races you see trough pathetic fool
@Bukharistan: As per your suggestion, do I ambush you with 1 soldier? lol
Get a grip.Quote:
Originally Posted by harryvdlaan
That or they have 6 defence when ambushed. Either way its insaneQuote:
Originally Posted by Avenger
"+ 100% land effect from Thieves Dens (new)"
How is that to be understood? double the effect of TD's?
This age we have a setup based on Hu/Dw/Ha/Fae. That includes all the races that get nerfed while every race we didn't pick gets a boost. We must be doing something right ;-)
Overall I like the changes.
Couple of points...
Avian is too hard to play to get the same output as other attackers.
Remove the birthrate penalty and they are good.
Halfling might need 1 small downward tweak.
Human, Dwarf and Elf are okay. They could be tweaked slightly up or down without major impact.
Orc kept its place as a glass cannon which is where they should be.
Undead is about right.
Merchant should get +10% income
War Hero should get - specs and Elites kill dragon at value +1
Sage should get - Protect 25% science from Learns.
But if you launched with the changes as they are it would not bother me.
Double the building %, not double the effect, I think?Quote:
Originally Posted by plumrse
It's just the bonus that rogues used to have.
My only real concern is how lower Elite defence values will affect the game. In general, I consider the need to be in/out with forces as an attacker as a BAD thing - the main page advertises that you don't need to be active to succeed, yet Elites with low defense point values forces precisely that kind of activity. A noob/not so active player should be able to have *some* kind of security if he isn't home the moment his forces return. I'm not, however, saying that high Elite defense values is a good thing (for balance issues already raised) - the question is how to enable people not to have perfect activity and still play attacker feasibly.
The only idea I've come up with so far that could make this work is if the land from an attack returned at the proper time, but the forces "didn't" until the player's next login - or at the very least are unassailable.
it means the effect of dens is calculated as if you had twice as many acres assigned to densQuote:
Originally Posted by plumrse
Okay thanks :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Landro
Overall: I believe attackers have been penalized a bit. But this was addressing 2 concerns. 1 - people claiming (rampantly) that there is too much offense and it's "ruining" the game. 2 - people claiming attackers need to have less defense on their elites because it was suicidal to wave into a Human/Dwarf KD. I think that this will encourage attackers to run a bit more dspecs than the usual, in turn - decreasing the crazy offense that many complain about. When looking at "A Survey of the World's Races" -- you can see that this age Avian are least played, then halflings/elves. Though I think people realized that elf wasn't all that bad because throughout the age then went from about 250 to 350 (were underrated at selection). Avian started off at about 225 and dropped to 180 (were overrated at selection). Dwarf dropped from about 750 to 550 (overrated at selection) but at least they are still up there. With that in mind, I'd say that the races that need most buffs: Avian and Halfling. Though I think the halfling needs were met, Avian is still sub-par.
By Race
Avian
I'm glad CS was added to them...but GP and Fanat should be looked at. GP should be +8% DME for 1/2 duration of MP (IMO). Fanat should also be +8%/-4% (from 5/3). I also don't think the BR penalty on Avian is necessary. The Elite training is decent, but the BR really really hurts them (from my 1 week experience playing Avian this age). The reason being similar to their training time before -- they have no soldiers to train because they have no peasants to draft. A fireball chain on an avian smashes them...and that's all that's really needed to keep an avian shut down. If anything they need resilience to FB (the sab bonus just doesn't cut it) -- I'd say +BR if anything related to BR at all...otherwise, there's jsut something missing for them to be good. Additionally, I think their attack time should be faster and tactician lower (-30/-15).
Dwarf - Perfect
Elf - Perfect
Faery - Perfect
Halfling - Mixed feelings. On one hand, I think they are a bit strong since I'm thinking I will definitely play them next age (never played halfling before but these changes make them extremely tempting). That said, I've never played them before because I thought there were better options. So they are probably on par with the other TM races, now. That said - if Elite Wages are going to be spiked, they would have some pretty massive wages...as would faeries.
Human - Perfect.
Orcs - I would say keep gains as they are but + kills.
Undead - The other race that I'm leaning towards. -75% o-loss is nuts. but I think necessary.
Personalities
Merchant - perfect (with the decaying credits, this makes them better in war, but not able to over-stock oow)
Sage - perfect
Rogue - for my own personal preferences, I'd switch -50% thief cost and +100% TDs bonuses of Halfling/Rogues. I wish I could give more compelling reasons than (I'd rather play faery/rogue or something along those lines)...
Mystic - Perfect
Warrior - Perfect
Tactician - (Mentioned above that avian -30, and tact -15 AT would be better IMO)
Cleric - perfect
War Hero - hmmm...I think it's ok for very specific strategies.
Mechanics
Mil Sci - probably for the better
Arson/GA - THANK YOU!!!
Summary: I think this age will have many geared towards the TM races. Though they might be caught by surprise if the wages are increased enough. If you're thinking of running full elite halfling/faery on 200% wages, think again - this might be too expensive to maintain - which is the thought that should be in everyone's heads. This in turn - is a decent buff to elves. They might be the only race that could run insanely high defense.
I don't like the defense change on attacker race elites because it basically forces you to anon/ws any sizeable hits to avoid ambush from even the ****tiest of targets.
They ought not to be nerfed all across the board like this(well Human/Dwarf/Avian anyway, and it's not like Avian needed a nerf...) in my opinion.
Also, I like Bukharistan's suggestion of Avian 6/0 Elite - I've suggested this before and it gels very well with my note on in/out forces - this would let Avians be able to wait for their competitors to strike before attacking, and be out and back before the opponent's forces are back, without risking losing Elites. Maybe the Ambush value could just be set to 4 for these Elites. However, overall a very nice setup.
Also on another note since someone else mentioned it - last age's -15% attack time for Tacticians was far more appropriate. All of Tactician's bonuses are some of the cleanest and powerful bonuses an attacker can have for offense, defense, and spying, and it's just TOO useful. Gah!
Fae was already a better mage than elf. Why give them cs and widen that gap even further?.
Yeah, I was being intuitive about the spec defense myself. I think most guys aren't looking at avian as played anyway; you navigate to dodge ambush. That might seem low tier but when you've traded hits with them you could project a wider more flexible strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gidoza
This would be nice if you could train specs too.Quote:
Avians
Can train Elites with Specialist Credits (New)
Also nice for avian BUT I worry this makes faery too strong. I am struggling to see any reason to play elf over faery this age.Quote:
Avians
Spellbook: Fanaticism, Greater Protection, Clear Sight (new)
Nice, hybrids are more of a possibility now.Quote:
The Rogue
-50% thief cost (new)
Instead of extra honor effects, maybe something like halved honour loss. That could be interesting.Quote:
The War Hero
+100% Honor Effects
Immune to Dragon effects
Immune to The Plague
Access to War Spoils
Starts with 400 elites
This is nice, hopefully this will result in not having to double fort stance to recover from a hard chain.Quote:
Fortified: Max duration decreased by 24 hours but effects on troop cost, speed and building rate increased, birth rate bonus added.
This is a massive variable. I really like the idea, but if we are looking at 5*,10* the maintenance costs, it will change everything massively. This is also a nerf to attackers, as economy destruction is already tough on them. Attackers have no way of sustaining their peasant count, so they are going to be sitting on 50% wages a lot more often than this age. If this was race specific I'd be a lot happier. Faery with huge maintenance costs for elites, Avians with very cheap.Quote:
Elite Wages: TBC, looking at increasing them in general.
smercjd I think you hit a very interesting point on the Elves with the Elite wage increase. Elves will already have superior defense with specs alone, and THEN their reduced defensive losses bonus will kick in if attacked, making them relatively even stronger on the defense than other T/M, which seems like overkill.Quote:
Originally Posted by smercjd
I am wondering - since Avian cannot use spec credits to train specs anymore, what if the Elf reduce defensive losses bonus was removed from Elf and moved to Avian? Then Avian would have defensive security again, and Elf's defenses would be more reasonable.
Yeah, if avians can't train specs with those credits, I think they deserve reduced defensive losses. It also helps when they leave their 1 defense leets at home for a little bit, it would make them slightly more viable. Along with the birth rate penalty being removed of course haha.
elf a/m > faery a/m.
and when your best attacker competition is orc, elf a/m is a hell of a lot more viable than it is against humans or dwarves. i'd probably rate elf as one of the best races next age despite the lack of buffs, but it depends on what you want to do with them. for thief/mage faery was better this age, but now thief/mage faery doesn't get mauled by AW too easily
Alright, first the most important things: the mechanics changes. Numbers can be changed easily, these tend to stay for a lot longer and... I love em!
I love the change to fortified, it should speed things up a little. I love the decay in spec credits, it gives an unfair econ advantage to the kd that won their latest war and can get into a new war with thousands of credits. These should be a temporary way to rebuild your province faster instead of get an advantage without a counter in the next war. Elite wages should be increased as opposed to increasing elite costs. The wages make it more beneficial to use specs more often, increasing the cost only slows everything down since everyone still want their leet armies.
The races:
Avian needed an econ/sustain boost and got it. Now they are like a faster lighter hitting version of orcs. It's an improvement. But I cant be positive on this because boo! for the more expensive leets
Dwarf looks good. They needed a nerf, got it and still look good.
Elf looks good. Were playable and are still playable.
Faery was nice last age and no change, so okay, except for the still overpriced leets
Halfling was underpowered last age, is still underpowered. My main concern with the halflings is the way to high NW for the leet.
Human looks okay, except the nw for the leet is way too high for 6/3. Dwarf had 6/3 last age for 5.5 nw, why is this 6/3 1.5 nw higher? It makes no sense.
Orcs looked okay, got a small buff, still look okay.
Undead were okay, maybe a little underpowered near eoa last age. The buff should make up for it. Good job on them.
In total, I'm positive about the races, except for human and halfling. The nw per leet is too high. Either the nw on these 2 races should be lowered imo or the nw on all 6 other races should be raised. Also, with more expensive wages for leets, the leet prices could come down again. Main reason the higher wages were suggested was to get the price down to speed up the age again. Please don't make this game into a boring waiting game.
On the persona's, small adjustments, nothing big, agreed on the buffs/nerfs, no further comments.
I don't think the changes are bad.
UD loss reduction forces you to chain them first so Im not sure it can be considered as a boost.
Will be fun to overpop UD next age.
I think the changes will stand or fall with the mechanic changes once it gets clear. There's not much use in screaming something is overpowered if it's not clear how the mechanic changes work.
Also these changes seem to be focussed on slowing down the mid age / late age and boosting the early age.
Just bring Genesis back so we can test changes again before you launch them :p
PS:
Faery with CS makes sense since AW was devastating this age. As pure halfler rogue 30 mod tpa was an easy number and it wrecked most Faery/Rogues easily. So I hope the mods won't listen to some people screaming random stuff here, too seriously.
I agree here. All elite armies are gonna be damn expensive. This will keep the Halfers in check.Quote:
Originally Posted by smercjd
Dragon Slaying bonus...that sounds very interesting and I think fits the motif of the War Hero. Please consider this idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andurilas