Offense and Defense questions!

Hey all ... help a Witch out a bit please :)

I've searched the wiki on recommended OPA and DPA numbers and WOW is that seriously out of date. A search here didn't yield me much recent info.

Last age played was 2011-2012 ages and I have no idea what general numbers for DPA, OPA should be now. I'm going attacker this next age and prefer a decent offense over defense but not suicider. I slum it in the ghettos so if you could give me something general, I can tweak it for my situation whatever that may end up being.

I appreciate all your knowledge and help!

Have between 1:1 and 2:1 off:def ratio of troops.

1000-2000 elites, for every 1000 defensive specialists, for most races.

Is the short version. Long version depends on a bunch of factors.

I'm a great fan of 5:3 ratio for offenses/defenses, sometimes going more 5:2 if the kingdom I'm in want high off, occasionally circumstances made me run 5:4, but more an exception than a rule.

Generally speaking the 5:3 ratio is good for allowing you to hit high off guys more times than they can hit you, if for instance they can 2x you then you can likely 3x them back or even 4x. Sometimes this ratio allows for you to not be chosen as a chain target in war, as you hold a bit to much def to allow dubbles but to little def to allow the opponents to hit you with their entire army, so they would have odd leftover off.

Thanks you guys ... that gives me a starting point and I can adjust as needed. Appreciate all the help!

I usually have my attackers run 7-8 dspa, then the rest of my military goes into offense. (usually 13+ epa/ospa)

so as a Faery attacker, that would be around 5 EPA for the same level of defense.

But since you are going solo, and not worried about war, you might want to run closer to 7-8 epa, then toss the rest into offense. Should give you respectable numbers.

DSPA = Defense Specs Per Acre
OSPA = Offense Specs Per Acre
EPA = Elites Per Acre

So say you are at 1200 acres you are saying you should have,
9.6k dspecs and 15.6k elites? For a pure attacker, how are you able to sustain your provs econ if you run 2.5-3rtpa and 2rwpa? Seems like you wouldnt have a good ppa, no? Or are you running homes and if so what %.

Also what %draft are you running? I dont even know whats tye norm anymore. I run 65%draft. Theres no way i would be able to pull those numbers and have a BE over 70%.

20% homes and 15% pop science will leave you around 6 ppa, with 20% in tools, you'll have around 90% BE, much stronger econ than most attackers.


I'm an a/m, so I have 9 dspa, 10 Epa, 6 wpa, 3 tpa, and around 6 ppa right now. My honor gives me a decent pop bonus, so that helps my numbers. Elf Mystic

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Originally Posted by LuckySports

20% homes and 15% pop science will leave you around 6 ppa, with 20% in tools, you'll have around 90% BE, much stronger econ than most attackers.


I'm an a/m, so I have 9 dspa, 10 Epa, 6 wpa, 3 tpa, and around 6 ppa right now. My honor gives me a decent pop bonus, so that helps my numbers. Elf Mystic

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How do you manage war without a semblance of tpa? You're relying 100% on WT to keep your alive. And even if untouched, you can't do any ops whatsoever. Even at 35% WT, you'd be AWed to **** with 2 mediocre rogues. After that, you have no econ, no wiz, no thief, and you're just a mediocre core, without core buildings.

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Originally Posted by Bananamancer2000

How do you manage war without a semblance of tpa? You're relying 100% on WT to keep your alive. And even if untouched, you can't do any ops whatsoever. Even at 35% WT, you'd be AWed to **** with 2 mediocre rogues. After that, you have no econ, no wiz, no thief, and you're just a mediocre core, without core buildings.

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Easy, avoid warring kingdoms with lots of rogues. If they only have a few, you can take them out at the start.

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Originally Posted by Bananamancer2000

How do you manage war without a semblance of tpa? You're relying 100% on WT to keep your alive. And even if untouched, you can't do any ops whatsoever. Even at 35% WT, you'd be AWed to **** with 2 mediocre rogues. After that, you have no econ, no wiz, no thief, and you're just a mediocre core, without core buildings.

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First off, only heretics can hope to compete with a rogue for mTPA, so wasting my time trying to be an a/t/m would be stupid. So to deal with rouges there are a few things you can do.


1. Kill the rogues first
2. High Guilds

With the 200% bonus to guilds for mystics, I can replace 1 WPA a day using 60% of my land, and I only need 1 rwpa with my mods to reliably keep MS up on attackers. 3 rwpa will keep it up on rogues with good success. The only reason I run 6 rwpa is for heretics, and to give me room to grow.

Another kingdom tried that earlier in the age. Managed to take me down to a bit over 2 rwpa, I still ended the war over 4 rwpa and never slowed my MS casting.

@the op, you run off and def based on what your kd needs. The exact mix will be dependent on your kds theme but typically ends up with 15-18 epa if a t/m and anything from 1:1 to 3:2 ratio of leets to dspecs if an attacker....whatever actually off/def will end up based on race/personality but typically falls in that training range.

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Originally Posted by Bananamancer2000

How do you manage war without a semblance of tpa? You're relying 100% on WT to keep your alive. And even if untouched, you can't do any ops whatsoever. Even at 35% WT, you'd be AWed to **** with 2 mediocre rogues. After that, you have no econ, no wiz, no thief, and you're just a mediocre core, without core buildings.

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As for that elf mystic the only way rogues doing AW means anything is if they can turn that AW into stoping ops(fb/ms) or econ on the prov. However given hes built as a A/M, wt, carefull hitting+good builds/kd aid and he should be fine for what he does....early hard MS, late easy ms+econ. Its takes A LOT more than 2 mediocre rogues to AW enough that you can fb down an elf mystic into bad econ.

I personally have run a a/m all age with ~1.5 tpa and havent had any issues, mind u im a feary tact so i get CS.

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Originally Posted by Persain

@the op, you run off and def based on what your kd needs. The exact mix will be dependent on your kds theme but typically ends up with 15-18 epa if a t/m and anything from 1:1 to 3:2 ratio of leets to dspecs if an attacker....whatever actually off/def will end up based on race/personality but typically falls in that training range.



As for that elf mystic the only way rogues doing AW means anything is if they can turn that AW into stoping ops(fb/ms) or econ on the prov. However given hes built as a A/M, wt, carefull hitting+good builds/kd aid and he should be fine for what he does....early hard MS, late easy ms+econ. Its takes A LOT more than 2 mediocre rogues to AW enough that you can fb down an elf mystic into bad econ.

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Doesn't take much to make that elf mystic have a hard time MSing. At that point you can land props that take whole TPA if you're (mediocre) rogues aren't ****e. Then they become a kidnap farm, free prop. You can do the route where you aw into FB/LL range but sometimes half doing 2 ppl IS worth more than finishing one.

At 3 TPA, he's sacrificing any offensive ops and huge vulnerability to theft, aw, Ga, kidnap, prop, regular arson, for like 10-15% military? I just don't know.

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Originally Posted by Bananamancer2000

Doesn't take much to make that elf mystic have a hard time MSing. At that point you can land props that take whole TPA if you're (mediocre) rogues aren't ****e. Then they become a kidnap farm, free prop. You can do the route where you aw into FB/LL range but sometimes half doing 2 ppl IS worth more than finishing one.

At 3 TPA, he's sacrificing any offensive ops and huge vulnerability to theft, aw, Ga, kidnap, prop, regular arson, for like 10-15% military? I just don't know.

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An Elf Mystic with decent magic science can get MS off on attackers with 1 WPA, good luck stopping MS, and fireballs are even easier. The amount of effort it would take to get that wpa down there is astronomical, my attackers would be very happy to hear the other kingdom was making the effort. Even with coordinated GA+AW, assuming they manage to get their stealth high enough to do that.

I could have 5 TPA and would still be just as vulnerable to a rogue, I don't think you understand how much I would need to do, to match a rogue's tpa enough to stop AW. They aren't as ridiculous as last age, but it's still going to take a lot of resources from other areas. And attackers win wars.

Also, 20% WT stops a lot, so to have any hopes of bringing me down, they would have to coordinate, and manage to avoid getting hit with ET.

In the five wars we've fought this age, only one of them had much success with lowering my WPA, and that was only because I did not have a chance to convert my WT in before war. That was also before I swapped to Hybrid, so I HAD 5 TPA, 20% TD, and crime science.

Never stopped me from casting MS though.

Huh ... I thought 3TPA raw with WT was about right for an attacking province. Not going to stop everything but it use to serve me well enough. But I suck at hybrids so I go all out attacker and that might be why.

@Persain - Yes, thanks. When I posted the question I was slumming it. Found a fun KD so will be running what they do, of course. Thanks for the input.

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Originally Posted by LuckySports

An Elf Mystic with decent magic science can get MS off on attackers with 1 WPA, good luck stopping MS, and fireballs are even easier. The amount of effort it would take to get that wpa down there is astronomical, my attackers would be very happy to hear the other kingdom was making the effort. Even with coordinated GA+AW, assuming they manage to get their stealth high enough to do that.

I could have 5 TPA and would still be just as vulnerable to a rogue, I don't think you understand how much I would need to do, to match a rogue's tpa enough to stop AW. They aren't as ridiculous as last age, but it's still going to take a lot of resources from other areas. And attackers win wars.

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This, becuase

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Originally Posted by Bananamancer2000

Doesn't take much to make that elf mystic have a hard time MSing. At that point you can land props that take whole TPA if you're (mediocre) rogues aren't ****e. Then they become a kidnap farm, free prop. You can do the route where you aw into FB/LL range but sometimes half doing 2 ppl IS worth more than finishing one.

At 3 TPA, he's sacrificing any offensive ops and huge vulnerability to theft, aw, Ga, kidnap, prop, regular arson, for like 10-15% military? I just don't know.

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Your basic argument is its better to be a T/M than a A/m. For a t/m 5 raw tpa some TD say 10% and 20% wt will likely "slow down" a rogue and as the rogue fails due to auto catch and what not. 5 raw tpa may even be "enough" tpa to actually protect you (mystic 1-2 will likely "Fall" but mystic 3-4+ will be defensive enough and all mystics can offensively op)


However for a A/M even 2 tpa isn't really sacrificing anything. Because their goal is to take and hold econ while msing->fbing. the difference between say 2 tpa and 5 tpa isnt "enough" to do ANY offensive opp once u grow 20-30% and fail away 1 raw tpa because u cant run max TD.

For your typical A/m your looking at 36 hours into war on (2/1.3)=1.5 raw tpa+30% wt
Vrs
((5-1)/1.3)=3 raw tpa and no TD.

That 3 raw tpa isnt going to be enough to do ANY offensive ops since u have no TD. And even if u have TD its not going to be doing a ton of damage. Couple that with the fact that if u wanted to be running TD the whole time you likely had to avoid stables/tg/hospitals/rax to fit it into your build and your looking at trading a little late war NS and early war ops for what would likely translate into 50%+ more effective military (raw military+military oriented build) not the 10-15% you were guessing.

WTs and CS are much more effective than defensive tpa. That's why F/T is so viable, and why CS is so powerful. 20% WT and CS = 50% autofail already, and given that you're unlikely to be able to MV CS off a mystic, you're in pretty good hands. You can't truly stop a determined rogue, but you can make them bleed every step of the way...

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Originally Posted by s0830887

WTs and CS are much more effective than defensive tpa. That's why F/T is so viable, and why CS is so powerful. 20% WT and CS = 50% autofail already, and given that you're unlikely to be able to MV CS off a mystic, you're in pretty good hands. You can't truly stop a determined rogue, but you can make them bleed every step of the way...

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This is true as well, I wanted to get one of our Faeries to run tact this age, but no one was willing, and I was the only one rolling mystic at first.

I really want to see someone play a tact, then run 10 thieves and have CS and 20% WT up all the time.

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Originally Posted by RedPanda

I really want to see someone play a tact, then run 10 thieves and have CS and 20% WT up all the time.

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Get infiltrated once, MV +raze/GA. All the lowest tpa people NS him without fails :D

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Originally Posted by Bananamancer2000

Get infiltrated once, MV +raze/GA. All the lowest tpa people NS him without fails :D

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Yeah, we utilized similar strategies on Tacts this age.. When they were a NS target, we would hit them in waves, starting with MV to drop CS. CS is great against less coordinated thieves, or if you are online to replace it right away.. :D

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Originally Posted by Bananamancer2000

Get infiltrated once, MV +raze/GA. All the lowest tpa people NS him without fails :D

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Well I only play Elf, so it is a proper move for me. But now do you mention it it is risky for those races without the WPA bonus.