I really enjoy the read.
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I really enjoy the read.
I had decided I didn't feel like doing my version this Age, but who knows- maybe I will get bored this weekend! At least it would be less races
We can do
~ What Feels Like a Badass ~ ranking
My first submission will be one I don't believe in, but has that mechanical guru feel:
elf war hero of spec-o-rama.
* I'd keep going but my break is short.
war hero probably brings in a new dimension to this, probaby the best for a quick start, but you would need elf or faery to continiously make use of the conversions, possible dwarf would work too, but anything that is not going with off specs + elites for their ideal composition would be worse of as age progresses, +1 to off specs only works if they are more powerfull than elites or you might as well go elites insted.
My guess is orc/undead will be in top 3 for combinations with dwarf getting chosen the least.
I see fae, halfer and dwarf benefiting the most... elf least of the 4
oh yes halfing would work too, it still gives you a t/m race to play attackr with and thus some less usefull benifits.
Dwarf and Humans probably will get overrepresented in the top kingdoms for their ecconomy aspects.
I have to guess that they did something that was not by mistake and I'm going to use it. I just wonder why they would do that?
And it is not what you guys think and it is not elf I am talking about.
Maybe it would make sense to compare generic warrior and generic war hero assuming +20% ME due to science and 200% payrate both using 10k off specs and getting +15% from TG's.
Warrior would get 10000 x 6 x 1.20 x 1.10 x 1.072 x 1.15 = 97638 off points
War Hero would get 10000 x 7 x 1.20 x 1.072 x 1.15 = 103555 off points so slightly better if full off specs, ritual honor and fanactism of course would bring this higher.
Not at all that great diffrence, and since it is the only senario the war hero would win their bonus is not that impressive although their conversion is still great with specs.
I was thinking about it from a whoring aspect in low nw fandango.
Without abductions we may see many kingdoms resort to trad march randoms resulting in fat farms. I'm sure most kingdoms will learn to slough off the acres rather than actively whore. This might wake up some sleeping giants since abduction counter reprisals are no longer a threat to quality per acre.
from a nw perspective halfing/undead with untrained soldiers on horses might be most cost efficient army, but it would be shredded the moment relations comes into play, and it is more of a cool start strategy than anything you can deploy most of the age.
if i redo a tad of it from my own stuff trying to match the spirit of the previous stuff i get
https://i.paste.pics/e5fb2201cda2b81...7c4d9c2765.png
Corrected verisoion thanks to ethan
https://i.paste.pics/1deb76eb3cfcaee...33265aa790.png
i know ethan balanced ratio of off/def, did a whole bunch of stuff like war hero inclusion and what not to try to balance it all i didnt.
Similarllly i know Rattleheads stuff was pretty complex so i didnt even try to match his level of accuracy
All did was build the 7 races at 400k nw semi normalize their def and scale to 2tpa/wpa on everyone.
I "did" adjust for feary/halfer leets+offspecs because who would use dspecs and attack with leets on those 2 races lol.
And orc gets ambushed for free and no one will ambush fae 6 ospec yet all the faeries will turtle.
Trying my best to convince my current kingdom to let me attack as a faerie and they just won't budge, insisting I MUST turtle.
P.S Possibly looking for ANOTHER kd before this age starts.
Was just updating them now when I spotted this. Hopefully I've gotten all the right updates in. 'Tis quite late for me, so I'm off to bed without too much commentary on it, other than noting that there ought to be a lot of spec based attachers this age. (Not sure there will be, but there ought to be.)
Rankings________OPA_____DPA___NW/A___MPNW_____%Max
Dwarf____________137.9____59.1___256.3____0.768____81.34%
Human___________142.1____60.9___261.3____0.777____82.24%
Elf_______________146______62.6___268______0.778____82.40%
Avian____________150.5____64.5___242.2____0.888____93.99%
Faery____________135.1____57.9___216______0.894____94.61%
No Race__________122.4____52.5___195.6____0.894____94.62%
Orc______________154.3____66.1___245.8____0.897____94.98%
Halfling___________140.8____60.3___222______0.906____95.89%
Dwarf no Elite_____125______53.6___195.8____0.912____96.52%
Avian no Elite______125.8____53.9___195.7____0.918____97.16%
Human no Elite____128.5____55.1___198.1____0.927____98.09%
Elf no Elite________131.5____56.4___201.3____0.934____98.83%
Halfer no Elite_____134.2____57.5___202.9____0.945___100.00%
So in general, this is looking pretty similar to Persain's version, which is encouraging to me. Biggest difference is Avian - I think it is because I don't simulate a full build, but instead use only some set buildings (10% homes, 20% TGs), and so I don't pick up on the no horses penalty, because no one has them in mine.
Other differences is that I can put in GP, fanat, and BL, as well as TW. That, plus using 3 mTPA and 2.5 mWPA instead of the raw, causes a few switches. I stuck 115% Sci effect in for human... which might be a bit strong, since the spot for that works like sage in my calc - as an actually effect multiplier instead of just more.
Halfer is showing quite strong for me, even the version with elites (which would be the comparable version) - while TW and TPA mod effect it a little, that still doesn't explain the big difference. I'm wondering if Persain didn't account (intentionally or not) for the pop bonus on halfer.
Thanks Persain and Ethan.
Your hafling is coming out far better than mine too (although my process is different -I've tried to adjust to get as close as i can without re-doing everything, but even then it is not fully nw-based). I have orc and avian ahead, then fae/hafling closely follwed by human/elf, and then dwarf behind (but i dont include dwarf BE bonus in that).
The only reason it looks like a bad idea is that faery attacker is noticeable. In other words, the enemy thinks you're suiciding etc. Once everyone gets acclimated to a faery attacker the wow factor subsides. I was very fond of faery cleric but had success with faery sage as well.
I dont know what you mean about suicide.... fae runs 1:1 and it beats orc on 11:6 AND 11:12 after you account for ambushes. Orcs only bonus is it's supposed to gain land on you... it doesn't AND fae gets bonus stealth which is great for attackers.
ethan i do my stuff differently thus the different results. Below should address both
Avain is garbage because i have innately built in stables enough to cover all offensive units. Since im running 2 tpa 2 wpa 5 ppa, 48 raw dpa, some homes, and max science i have people running 14-17.5 offensive units. The numbers i gave were for LATE age max sceince and whatnot ;) so when u factor in stables theres a huge bonus there.
That is i choose some conditions for my post above, but my method has a ton of variables u can play with on the fly to see relative power and either a fixed land or a fixed nw to get the general sense of a prov
https://i.paste.pics/39286f113d9be75...65341b5638.png
As for halfer, both halfer and feary i had to adjust as i dont normally do those.
I dont personally dont care who u are i dont run an offspec only army unless those offspecs have +mods to them because you can't survive when chained using offspecs. Typically you dont carry enough nw in offspecs to be able to topfeed post chain nor will u cary enough raw offense since a prov thats 100% offense on 6 points carries sooo much less than a prov that has 8 point offspecs.
To that end though i @#$#@ up halfer and used 7 for offense instead of the 8 i should of with horses. i went back and adjusted it and halfer is the second best, so i much more closely match your results. (i dont put in tw and since my tpa is lower it makes sense my halfer would be worse)
Once your chained your less than 1% of the war effort, and regardless you guys run your chained provinces wrong as well. A fae can just keep his elites quad tap the other guys that have been chained and are on land defense and be full defense and only be able to be hit once.
Not sure I understand this comment entirely, but chained is not out.
If you are built right, and respond right to your chaining., you can shift to Rogue work, maybe some light Mage work, and as this is a team game, there should be an opposing province or two that should be in your military wheelhouse.
Faery is not harder to chain than anyone else.
I dont understand.... those arethings the chained faery will do better than other attackers... and also things you should be doing anyways.Quote:
If you are built right, and respond right to your chaining., you can shift to Rogue work, maybe some light Mage work, and as this is a team game, there should be an opposing province or two that should be in your military wheelhouse.
I've played orc attacker in probably 75% of my ages, and I op 70-90% success with my T/M... there is always work with ops needing done. If nothing else you rob greed and drought.
When you chain an attacker which a feary running heavy offspecs its not magically going to become a good t/m from being a good attacker. Build a typical feary attacker...lets say 7 epa, 3 wpa 2 tpa 5 ppa 11.75 offspecs/acre. its similar to my orc but a bit more def focused. if u go much below that offspec your not much of an attacker anway so lets say thats a decent prov. Then u get chained So like 2000->250 acres.
Before we move on lets make a few assumptions:
1. the orc and feary have similar incoming acres (unlikley but whatever), once they get land int they are what 600 acres?
2. u got chained with just some army away time and thus desertions your likely to have lost about 1/3 of your def and 1/4 your tpa
3. you were already low peasents and after hits end up at 2000 peasents.
So you end up on
600*25*1.15*1.15=19837 population space.
2,000 peasents,
6,000 wizzards
3,000 theives
8,000 leets
23,500 offspecs
IF I were an an orc all u keep is offense. and u end up with 19837-8000= 11,837 leet or about 140k offense. My nw is ~180-200k nw depending on science. Enough nw to topfeed into a 400k prov as needed and enough offense to finish chains/do a lucky topfeed mass if they are gaining peeasents
If im a feary your saying what keep all leets and theives and just a few offspecs?
i.e.
2000 peasents
6000 wizzards
3000 theives
8000 leets
800 offspecs?
I hit 0 def guys using my offspecs and end up with 64k def? and 155k-170k nw. i have enough tpa to NS...oh wait i just got singled by the 3 enemy orcs also chained in nw and spare off hit by 3 more orcs during their main chains and i drop to 375 acres. my leets and theives desert my def drops and more and more people hit me with spare offense till i lose most of my tpa/leets and now i have no offense.
Alternatively i keep all my offspecs and now im running 100k offense and 115-130k nw. my nw is much lower as is my offense and i dont even get a bonus to gains..not usefull.
that senario solely depends on how brutally you get chained, was warring 4 times with Bocan War hero and got chained 3 times, each time I ended up bouncing back as they did not chain from to high acreage and as they went on chaining my kd fellors afterwards when def got to high, nw to low and acres to few. I bounced back and got unbreakable twice, admitted with very few off specs left after that. In 4 wars we had 4 or 5 provinces get killed since they ended on land def and was hit full on by t/m's from there. War hero with incomming defensive elites won't end up so badly.
Admittedly it was the lower end of the 100-120 ranking most of the time, but I do believe it would work against most kd's up to the arround rank 30-50.
Persian... that's alot of numbers but alot of nonsense.
I dont know how you think 11.75:7 is the ratio to play fairy..... that's just wrong, its 1:1. But your orc tops feeds 1, maybe 2 waves and the fairy will eventually push him below itself. Quad tapping you while you 1x MAYBE 2x if they run your military numbers above your NW. (gaining 0 honor btw to make those hits)
Your numbers just make zero sense, if we are both full elite the faery has 8 defense to your 11 offense. not 64k to your 140k... i just don't know how your getting your numbers.
Do a simple infiltrate on your orc, see you have 0 theives and now i only need .5tpa .5wpa to op players like you with 100%.
You bring in that you have 4 orcs single tapping this fairy... so by that logic there are 4 chained fairys quad tapping those orcs to their single taps.
By your logic, the "strategy moderator", you should go into war 100% elite 0 defense because it lets you top feed over your NW. That is what your telling us. Its the same thing. and if thats what your doing it makes sense to run full defense because you need very little offense to 4x.
You seem the think the faery on full defense will be the one loosing land... and that's just not how that works.
@madchess we've run bocan war hero two ages in a row. sometimes one of em can come back but if the enemy knows what they are doing its pretty easy to keep someone down when they use offspecs
if your running a low-ish tpa and wpa feary because u fancy yourself a feary attacker thats about the right ratio. higher def just makes u even more worthless if u dont have decent tpa/wpa to back it up(given that u cant cast self spells on others anymore). If u are runnning more like 4/4 and still think of yourself as a feary attacker your more of a a/t/m and your still wrong about how a chained fearies effectiveness..
i personally ran feary tact in the past 2 ages. i ran 15 epa 3 wpa 1.5 tpa 3 ppa 6 offspec/acre. i was chained mutiple times. In every case if i tried what your suggestion i would just die. Sure i got my tpa boosted to 4+ so i could op/ns and whatnot. But against any half comptent kd u only keep yourself afloat with incoming acres and ll so long (read i didnt release a single leet in a bit becuase i could manage my incomign well enough). But against compotent kds the hitting brings u into overpop and all your tpa/epa goes away even if u dont release it.
edit...
As for your suggestion that the orc will drop in 1-2 waves while the feary # wins. the answer is simply no. your suggestion would work in a maybe a 1-3 man kd. But anytime u drop a feary once its triing to recover by hiting 0 def for land all u have to do is hit it 5-6 more times with its army out. if they were stupid enough to keep a high raw tpa the 10+ hours its army is out is MORE than enough to push it into minimal spare off hitting. Then since it kept no offense u can massacre it 3-4 times and forget about it ever existing.
Look man ill keep it simple:
6k military
Faery 1:1
24000 24000
Faery 11.75:7
30000 18000
Orc IDK what dumb **** you run probably 2:1
44000 12000
1:1 faery double taps and can't be double tapped back your fairy on the other hand CAN be.
Your provinces go down 2x as fast, but as a benifit you do some extra minimal dmg to chain targets. before your double tapping 1:1 your dumb ratio is being trippled.
If you were running 15 EPA as fairy and still being chained, you can't ask for the war to go any more in your favor. If you were loosing those wars your doing something wrong. Who the **** are you warring that chains high defence low offence provinces as a priority.
To hit that fairy 5-6 times means you could hit one of your orcs 20-24 times... YOUR NOT MAKING SENSE.Quote:
edit...
As for your suggestion that the orc will drop in 1-2 waves while the feary # wins. the answer is simply no. your suggestion would work in a maybe a 1-3 man kd. But anytime u drop a feary once its triing to recover by hiting 0 def for land all u have to do is hit it 5-6 more times with its army out. if they were stupid enough to keep a high raw tpa the 10+ hours its army is out is MORE than enough to push it into minimal spare off hitting. Then since it kept no offense u can massacre it 3-4 times and forget about it ever existing.
What army out? they are hitting you with 200 defence points they dont need to send anything to do that. there is no ARMY OUT in this scenario.
again Ganga its stupid to think in 1v1. that feary gets chained into the ground and then is useless. the orc gets chained and then still hits
if your talking 6k military pre chain its still stupid to think like oh look i can double you. Becuase its fights are fought against kds not solo provs. That feary cant magically double while the orc only singles someone. That orc is going to single that feary then hit someone smaller they can hit with another 20k.
When you talk about viablity as an attacker u have to talk about how they surive post chain. That means assuming you are taking to ~1/10th your starting size then see how effective your prov becomes. If your not talking in those terms your talking about some type of hybrid.
i mean you can just as easily balance an orc to double that feary w/out geting tripled
faery 3k offspec 3kleet 24k-24k
orc 4400 leets 1600 dspec 48.4k-- 9.6k.
oh look its back to 2v2 with both provs on equal tpa/wpa.
when the feary has all its generals out and other orcs in your kd can hit it 5-6 times.
sure u can hit my orc 20-24 times. but it can keep enough incoming acres running almost pure leet that those hits dont do anything. an orc with no tpa, no dspecs and all leets out on an attack could be taken to 1 acres and it doesnt matter. what matters is its size once the land comes in.
faery has 4.8k offense left to ambush you with 2x.... and you have 0 offence left to ambush your still trading singles for doubles. please just stop.
Ganga AGAIN your treating it like a 1v1.
If i have 25 people attack your feary x1. And you have 25 people attack my orc what happens?
Your orc becomes quad tappable much much faster than my faery.... please just stop. We've now chained 2.5 orcs by the time you chained that fairy is what happens.
Ok you have 2.5 orcs full elite and land defence....
48000 defence on faeries
6600 offence on your orcs
These 2 provinces are same NW the fairy quad taps the orcs and has say 44000 defense home to defend. For the same reason you don't go into war full elite and zero defense is why its better. More and more orcs are getting chained those fairys are not running out food.
okay lets say i play out this scenario. The TWO orcs single taps +conquest bounces the feary they get some small amount of acres incoming. doesnt matter then number. The feary quad taps your orc leaving how many of its leets home?
Look man the correct answer is if faeries are running full elites in the chain pit your orcs need dspecs, im not talking this nonsense anymore.
no the answer is once your chained defense ie meaningless. if u cant take me acting civil and talking things out while u say my questions are nonsense im curious how u act when people arent being nice, then again i already warned you today in how u talked in another thread.
MY POINT was you suggested that the feary would quad tap my orc on 0 def using minimal leets. of his 6k lets say it costs him 500 leets to quad tap my orc. While all 4 of those generals are out other provs hit your feary into max overpopulatin. While the feary waits for quad tap of acres to come in for 10 hours he will experience overpopulation of 20% military per tick. 5500 *0.8^10= 600. So when your feary gets home he'll have the 500 leets he used to quad tap and an adittiona 600 leets for a grand total of 1100 leets. My orc even if u ground it into almost nothing should get more incoming acres from a SINGLE+ bounce to keep more leets than that and continue to be usefull while your feary is now forever on 0 def and nearly no offense.
Your saying this is more of a problem for a fairy on full elite defense(90% home) than it is for an orc on land defense... The faeries quad tapping have more incoming acres than your orcs because your orcs are so grossly undefended.
Your orc should have the same problem x4...
When have you chained a province to 0 offense and 0 defense... I personally have never seen that happen they die a peasant death first, idk what bizzaro world you live in.
Your saying that your orc gets more incoming acres off a single tap, than the fairy who quad tapped. idk what bizzaro world you live in.
im saying if both go 0 def the orc has the advantage. that should at least be obvious. the orc holds more nw and has more total offense. thats the "Easy" side of things and the reason why an offspec based military is bad.
The harder side to explain, and i think where u are geting hung up (took a TON of wars for me to get this too) is that once chained and down with low enough def that most people significantly bigger than u can break you it is bad to keep def. Because def dispears when people continue to hit you.
The easiest example of this is if we look at an orc twice. The orc gets chained and after the chain has 2000 dspecs and 6000 leets but has to release 2000 total troops to attack again again .i.e he has population space for 6000 total troops. How does he release.
1.IF he releases is dspecs and attacks again he gets acres coming in and again has population space for 6000 troops. well lucky me he has 6000 leets he just attacks again.
2. Alternatively lets say he releases his leets. he now keeps 2000 dspecs and 4000 leets. he attacks. While those offensive units are out people hit him. That offense is out for 10 hours and every tick that offense is out the dspecs that are home experience overpopulation. 10 hours of overpopulation make it so that 90% of his at home military disapears. That means when his offense gets home he now has 4000 leets and 200 dspecs, but has the population space for 6000 troops.
Now we compare and #$!#@$ guy #2 he has substationally less offense and both him and the guy who kept all leets have nearly the same def and its practically 0. Go another 10 hours and those 200 may drop to 20. 20 v 0 in 2 uniques. whose better off the guy that started those 2 uniques at 6k or the guy who started the uniques at 4k.
BACK TO FEARY:
yes the situation with a feary would be slightly differnt. the feary is keeping ALOT more def. and it requires a more offense and total hits to be dedicate to it. But once your "done' what is the feary left with? almost nothing. The orc on the other hand that didnt turtle at least has some offense.
If you say so, your the strategy moderator, i bow to your wisdom.
I just didn't think it was possible to chain a full elite fairy until he didn't even have the 2epa needed to quad tap your orcs... I must be mistaken.
Taking the feary down to 48k def is typically "enough" for most kds. i mean if my orc on 66k can quad "anyone" theres no reason to dedicate the hits to the feary to make it only 1000 total leets. especially if my orc can x3 someone on low def and x1 a "chain" that hasnt had to release yet. To ensure that the 48k def feary isnt casting FB or nsing me though i'd just do 8 massacres with 4 of my big unbrekable t/ms. Once that feary has eaten 8 massacres he has no tpa/wpa left the be threatening and i can have someone hit him for acres anytime he gets to big. This is the typical case. feary stops at 48k and i have no reason to take if father because one of your other attackers is zero def. Thats also how people say "i recouped from chain and went unbrekable" no on kept hitting it and accidentally forgot about it. its poor planing as a leader lol.
But keeping it so my orc can quad is the trick right... i have to make sure my 66k orc can quad someone. So in your well the orc cant quad but the feary can, my "first" orc chained is going to struggle hes going to have zero people he can quad and be OWNED. But once i see thats a threat i make sure to dedicate enough attackers to your feary such that every subsequent orc can x3 your feary and then x1 someone else big. i end up "bringing land into the bottom" that way and ensureing that my orcs keep as much offense as possible while anyone you turtled with never had enough offense to begin with.
I guess we agree to disagree, If our provinces are matched against provinces going 100% offense and 0 defense the way to build your province is 90% defense and 10% offense. and we seem to disagree that that is how that works.