Hello.
I'm not running a faery but I require information on typical faery heretic ratios: peasants, tpa and wpa. You're welcome to chime in on spec and elite levels.
Thank you in advance for your knowledge.
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Hello.
I'm not running a faery but I require information on typical faery heretic ratios: peasants, tpa and wpa. You're welcome to chime in on spec and elite levels.
Thank you in advance for your knowledge.
If i ran a feary heretic i'd max crime/channeling/production science asap since feary can b a bit nw heavy i'd leave out pop science and just run a few homes. lets say 20%
20% homes mean i have 27 pop/acre to use. The question then is how i have my feary sized in a kd. Typically i like faeries as no offspecs but heretic is weak to both mystic and rogue so i'd have to see what my kd needed and what it was facing as far as war targets go.
To that end i'd intially set it up for 4 tpa 4 wpa early. That leaves peasents and leets. During eowcf i'd aim to put myself on 6 ppa and 13 epa. I'd train more epa if i could during eowcf, buuut in my experience wpa+training is a bit beyond feary so thats about as deep as i expect. However as i wait for my next war i'd sit on 30% homes (28 pop/acre) and draft down to 4 ppa allowing me to run 3 offspec/acre. Then when war hits i remove homes destroy my econ for a bit but use nm wave to get 1 land hit in and sit on decent econ/tpa/wpa for oping fat attackers and enough offspecs to massacre chain targets every wave beyond #1
Note: 4 wpa is "low" if wanting to nm mid-late age. As i get pop science and honor i'd devote all addtional space to wpa till i hit 7-8 raw wpa then try to get my def as high as possible.
LATE age i susspect i'd end up with
25% homes count and 15% pop science for 33.20625 pop/acre
4.5 tpa 7.5 wpa 3.21 ppa 18 epa (enough to hit 0 def targets for econ)
I'm not going to rehash my argument with persian from 5 days ago (see power rankings thread) but as a fairy heretic I would only aim to op the attacker core. so early game you barely need 2wpa 2tpa and late game 4-4 is good enough to op most cores, I might go a little higher when I feel pretty safe I won't be chained. Fairies military is strong this round and I will be running 1:1 ospec elite.
I draft as deep as I can, and as I do I need to run more homes going into war and don't usually build anymore after war starts, use them to keep peasants as high as I can LL a few acres at the start, attack out, and kidnap as needed.
sidenote; persians fairy nightmares 90% on the core to my maybe 60-70%ish success, but he gives up 2 full unique's a day, and neither fairy will be attacked. So its really up to you for that tradeoff.
MERGED
Just want to add, I do not like the guild bonuses to t/m's personalities. The only reason t/m's didn't need to play from the bottom of the kingdom before was that they needed to take land earlier than everyone so they could pump wizards faster than everyone. Now with these insane guild bonuses those specs get (which are more powerful with just the guild bonus, than other personalities) there is no reason to play persian's fairy at the top of the kingdom. It does the same amount of damage with ops using the lowest NW in your kingdom as it does with the most NW, it makes sense to trim the fat for war as we all pick wars based off KD NW, and make them play from the smallest size now.
Just adding this because I know persian probably plays his non-attacking t/m' s at the top of his kingdom still and it makes no sense these days.
Persain's numbers look fine to me although I think they are definitely on the higher end of what people manage to pull off. ie I have no doubt that Persain and Persain's KD does it, and plenty others, but for most players it wouldn't be very common to come across a feary heretic with numbers that good. I often see more peasants and less wizz than Parsain has for late age (to be clear, i am not saying it is better - it isn't IMO - but you asked for "typical").
I know Strato knows this but for the benefit of other people reading the thread, that wasn't the only (or even main?) reason people put t/ms at the top of land. It is to make it easier to make them unbreakable, which is still valid now.Quote:
Just want to add, I do not like the guild bonuses to t/m's personalities. The only reason t/m's didn't need to play from the bottom of the kingdom before was that they needed to take land earlier than everyone so they could pump wizards faster than everyone. Now with these insane guild bonuses those specs get (which are more powerful with just the guild bonus, than other personalities) there is no reason to play persian's fairy at the top of the kingdom. It does the same amount of damage with ops using the lowest NW in your kingdom as it does with the most NW, it makes sense to trim the fat for war as we all pick wars based off KD NW, and make them play from the smallest size now.
Just adding this because I know persian probably plays his non-attacking t/m' s at the top of his kingdom still and it makes no sense these days.
If you are heretic, you are only looking to ops attackers and trad/raze small targets so I would:
4.5 wpa
4.5 tpa
5.5 ppa
The rest goes to defense (elites if you can afford it, dspecs if you can't).
Science-wise, I will echo the others here and prioritise (in order of importance):
1. Production, Crime, Channelling (so you're useful)
2. Alchemy, Tools (to cover the high cost of maintaining full elite army)
3. Housing, Military (I'd rather soft-cap the others than putting any scientists here)
Run 20% homes, forts, some TD, enough Towers to FB and the occasional MV and you're good to go.
It's for my friend, MagOcastle(just kidding ;) A returning player from the dim time.
He told me to thank you, and I thank you all for giving us things to think about.
yay being helpfull <3
one last thing @chris121 the numbers i suggest are what i'd plan to fight against. Then u have an "Easy win" if your target as worse numbers. I've seen some pretty scary t/ms in the past when they hit like duke, run 50% pre-arranged war and enter on insane numbers.
Yeah I agree, but you do play in a different part of the game to most players ;)
I wasn't sure what Strato's purpose for asking was and whether there might be in distinction between "typical" in the question versus, say, "optimal".
We have a returning player who seems to have all the characteristics of a good teammate. He was asking in forum about t/m numbers.
Yknow I'm the worst to ask because I navigate on feel; if it's working it'd be good math. The way I build provinces is based in pretty numbers. I round my thieves to even thousands. If I have a retal encounter I always explore the loose change to reach a cool number, like when I was 888 acres. The end result is it makes me compete to square my numbers away.
This is why I don't give build advice. And thank you again guys.
You obviously don't know this game or have not been playing it at a higher level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganga
You may have gotten away with bullying noobs or ghetto kds who lack planning and organization but you will not beat a competent warring kd with that nonsense.
Spoken like a guy who thinks he's good because he plays in a top kingdom and follows someones orders and has never looked at numbers himself. You've been here since what 2016, and have never looked at any numbers yourself. You think your good because your kingdom probably hits 2x the unique attacks of the kingdoms you war and you think you know strategy. You've got nothing to add except that you think you play at a "higher" level because you follow someones archaic orders. The game is small enough you don't need strategy to be a 'top' kingdom, you only need 25 players who can attack 2x a day.
Sidenote: the forum was reset around 2012 when it moved from swirve, been here long before that. Got heaps of experience on a nub like you, played in enough top kingdoms bud. If you don't want to add anything (numbers/strategy/theory) about what I'm saying so I can rebuke it. Keep your cult-like indoctrinated nay-saying to yourself.
If you want to troll maybe you should do better background checks than you have so far. For example there was no forum reset in 2012. Mehul sold off the game in 2008 and then they moved forum as well. :) So if you dont know basic **** like that how can someone trust you that you actually know anything about the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganga
I said AROUND 2012.... YOU THA TROLL
Point is i was around before that... ----Remaineder of post deleted
It's ok, Ganga. I have an old reliable BS filter. And like you and the Strategy Forum warning, we can't take all comments to heart. So I refer back to my old reliable BS filter along with basic knowledge of the game.
This is why it's good to bang heads with the bosses. Why it's more rewarding to read the suggestions forum: I mentioned that out loud because I felt competitive kingdoms should know they were showing their ass.
If you get your butt kicked but arrived at logical conclusions through deciphering intel and strategy, then you can shrink the number of bad days in utopia and be a hammer instead of a nail. If you find yourself traipsing through unintelligible information and can't change your basic approach you get kicked to the area of the chart as a respawning. There are plenty of opportunities to learn, but few kingdoms risk the lesson.
MOD HAT ON
okay that whole back and forth being WAY offtopic and warranting a temp ban for Ganga when its not 4am and i look into mod tools more (warned in other thread about attacking others) means i also had to temp locked the thread.
@Ganga: im not a huge Korp myself BUT he doesnt cross the line of personal attacks...thus hes allowed to speak even if it comes off as condesending.
@Korp: i deleted the conversion as being WAY to offtopic. Point is Clear though Ganga is giving bad advise, and its easy to question his experience/skill based on whats posted
@what i deleted:Was the back and forth irrelevant to the topic and summaries best with the @Ganga and @Korp
Mod Hat off
Strategy person talking again
You may need 25 people to compete in the top but theres is a huge difference between bad and good numbers. The numbers i suggested above or summarized nicely hereQuote:
Originally Posted by Ganga
are very much needed if you want to be a "good" feary. I have an ex-player i'd put in the top 5 in the game (better than me at solo prov management by a fair bit) who can literally solo carry a gheto where people aren't attacking x2 a day. he would NEVER run something likeQuote:
Originally Posted by elmoheadbutt
because its simply bad advise. To that end i mean i've seen him war in a kd of 12 v 14 where it was more like 4 v 7 active people in each kd and he was able to take the 4 people and pull off a win simply because he had his prov built right. If he were here and in running in a ghetto he would recommend something much more in line with my own numbers ore elmoheadbutts. being a feary isnt just about op-ing the enemy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganga
Other than that, if your playing in a 'top' kingdom you think for yourself get your own intel and run the tpa/wpa you want to run given that intel. That said, most people that come here looking for advice are not in 'top' kingdoms and my advice is the better advice.
If u ran the numbers you suggest Ganga your a drag on your kd top or gheto. Activity isnt everything either, i'd rather a healhty prov loging in sparingly than one thats on 24/7 with bad numbers
Funny, i've been doing it for 100+ ages opping and attacking and I never am a drag. quite the opposite. Ghetto OR top kingdom
Got enough people like you and korp's attacking anyone who says anything that makes them look like they don't drink the kool-aid. Stop your book burning mentality here.
--Issues with mods are handled via pm--
Again ganga if u have an issue with what got added/deleted pm me or another mod..keep the STRATEGY forum to strategy.
As for the "attacking" people that dont drink the koolaid i have no issues with people posting an odd strategy if they can back it up with a reasonable reason. But i go back to you suggested a feary heretic should run 2 tpa 2 wpa right about now. Even with science those numbers would struggle to op ANYONE in my kd. You might have enough tpa to ns an orc once he grew 50-60% but 2 wpa even with science on a heretic is going to struggle to even fireball an orc in my kd even after he grew 50% because you'd only have 1.5 times his mod wpa.
Ganga's setup is bad. Its basically honor farm for competent tms. His moderate op power is easily disabled with small aw run or mac or two.
Proper way to setup tm is with goal to combat enemy tm's not core. This gives you ability to win ub wars and secure economy in close wars.
Persians numbers are decent benchmark, alltho his late age wpa goal might me very hard to echieve for most.
My aproach is to get as muxh wpa as I can allways, everything else is situational and case dependent on who am i fighting.
Ganga,
I can still see my 10+ year old posts on utopia temple, so not sure what your point is.
Warring at a higher level means every single advantage counts. Running 2tpa and 2wpa on a faery heretic is just a joke and a waste of space. Your advice is not the better advice. Just because people aren't playing in top kds isn't an excuse to encourage them to setup crap provinces and just because you're a poor player doesn't mean it's ok to give bad advice.
This forum is to help people improve. So stop feeding your nonsense.
NM might be a bit of a stretch but Ganga's setup seems perfectly reasonable for a faetacker that is just soaking up honor opportunistically~
Not smart to argue with persain on this, or much in general. He is usually right. He is one smart cat
He's alright! A little narrow in scope perhaps but that's typical of people who spend their entire careers in the warring segment.
For instance, his point about accumulating as much WPA as possible is agreeable on the surface but Ganga is right to question the efficiency of doing so. Hoarding WPA is more a matter of dealing with uncertainty. Most kingdoms don't necessarily know who they will be engaging next so they're forced to act as though they'll encounter well defended provinces. However, once the opponent is known, intel is gathered, and projections are made, it makes perfect sense to release down to a WPA level that will satisfy the requirement and free up more pop space for def/off prior to training for the engagement. You -could- walk in with excessive WPA, but it wouldn't be the optimum path and could leave provs overexposed to other risk factors.
<Removed>
Ganga, I'm experienced enough to understand both points of view. I've seen octo handle the world admirably with fae attacker types. I've been in TFC and run faery in various troop loads.
In the interest of octo, I've played faery enough to understand the premise of "barrel cooling" along with resource limits and tactical shell gaming. And octo is way out of my league. In the realm of Divinity there's much to be said about exhaustible resource balance amongst the entirety of the kingdom. It's that logistically Persain chooses overlap because he knows where one kingdom feature falls off another has already begun. He's very polished in kingdom strats.
I'm somewhat similar to you in practice and have always been aggressive, if not particular, in rough environments. If I'm a hybrid I regard enemy attackers as a resource pool. I'd see mystics as my sabotage target and rogues as my ops target. - If I'm focal to core supremacy I've enjoyed much success in turning my attention to fantastically built heavy attackers and reducing them to rubble. - Again, I don't do numbers because I just make blobs and pretty numbers in the vicinity of what succeeds. As an example: I can get you good results in a homes pump, but I can only do the math figuratively.
I think these discussions are valuable to the reader and thus encourage you, Ganga, to participate. We must have faith the reader will decipher through intellectual discrimination. Is that what it's called? Maybe distinction...
PS
There's a redeeming quality to militarized faery that I can relate to, just that it's against my honor code.
Like Frank Thomas for Nugenix says: IT'S EASY!
If you're a province-ace and know how to random you can grow to immense acreage...but you're war tier and grumpy voices prevail, you can negotiate a land drop. It's pretty old news like steroids, but the community has been asleep on land dropping since the Cromulent Republic and Pyro cJ era. If you're new here; by compacting acres via land drop you increase all your pa's except peasants per - wpa, tpa, nwpa...
You just send out elites enough to expose yourself to the successor of the acres.
Again, it's not my way. I've got a number of honor/challenge codes which include land dropping as a no-no, but for the immoral glory hounds I see nothing but win-win :D No insult intended. Without black knights us white knights would be playing solitaire.
the point of his suggestion being terrible is the vast majority of kds will setup a feary at least on par with what i was suggesting. If u want your prov to be successful in a random kd or in your average kd you need to plan around what most people in the game are running. If you want to run a non standard setup you need to explain how your mix is used in a kd or why you dont just crumble. Ganga was saying as a feary you'd run 2 tpa and 2 wpa and op attackers early age with 4 wpa and 4 tpa late age. Thats fine if say you want your feary to only op fat provs. The point i made is that right now 2 tpa and 2 wpa WONT actually be successfull doing that early age. This is because TPA: most kd attackers start at 2 tpa and when they grow WT counters their diluted tpa enough tha you arent oping and WPA: 2 wpa again is barely enough to fb attackers and u wont be NMing due to rune/wpa shortage. He suggested late age 4 tpa 4 wpa and i go to the same thing. 4 wpa isnt enough wpa to nm anyone and you'd end up wasting the heretic personality.Quote:
Originally Posted by octobrev
However now he wasn't suggesting that my numbers could be lowered if you simply play your feary a certain nonstandard way clarify that playstyle, he was simply saying "a feary doesnt need good tpa/wpa to use the heretic personality to its fullest" which is simply just wrong. I can confirm you dont need anywhere near my numbers on ALL faeries, i ran faery tact 2 ages in a row running 1.5 tpa and 3 wpa and i simply acted as a self spell machine casting CS/GP/RM.... and growing as big as i could. I didnt care about eating ops or geting shelled because my goal was to grow and build 40-50% towers and feed my kd. I'd keep just enough wpa to cast selfies and i went aid runes v econ so it was a "viable" way to play. I however wasnt running heretic as the OP asked which due to its nature needs wpa/tpa to use its personality.
2-4 would be fine in the hood! 1 to 1 is sufficient for robbing and there are always randbobs on 1tpa/wpa besides. My intel farms have spent a lot of time among these people. I even had one in your Divinity back when they were still HaJ :O