Question about Science Bonuses

I've calculated the bonuses from sciences at certain amounts of books...

With the inital 5 scientists, you get approximately 6.5million books for the whole age (assuming a 12 Utopian YR age, no schools, no learns).

6.5million books gives you certain alarming bonuses...but the ones I'm most curious about are the reduction bonuses... For example the following 4:

Wage Reduction = 130%
Military Training Time Reduction = 107%
Ritual Rune Cost Reduction = 107%
Instant Ops Reduction Damage = 87%

I'm assuming these bottom out at 0, right? As in, you don't suddenly start gaining money from wages or gaining runes from casting a ritual.

The most worrisome is Training Time...107% reduction in time means you get the troops the tick before you train them. This won't break Utopia right?

Furthermore, with a little more effort you could reach 100% reduction in instant ops damage. What if you have 150% reduction from instants, do you gain peasants when fireballed/kidnapped? Spawn troops when nightmared? Receive donation troops from propaganda?? lol

FYI
"Max" as it relates to the bonuses given last age (having 30 scientists last age) is equivalent to 450K books. Just now, there are 16 types rather than just 7. Consider that 6.5million books takes all your initial scientists learning books the entire age in one category and allocating all the books into one type to make the examples above happen.

As it stands, if you divide them evenly, you will reach "max" by the end of the age in only 14 types.

Of course...you get ~20 new scientists (without revelation/labs) in a 12YR age, so you should easily max out all 16 types.

EDIT: Also...my math could be wrong of course...

Haven't checked any of your math. But I'm confident that either spawn rate and/or category mods and/or the whole system will change for next age. This 5 weeks age is a test age, and I would guess that Jeff and David accelerated sci to be comparatively quick, as to simulate a longer age.

Edit: On test server you could gain runes casting on ritual for instance, so the code is worrisome, but I doubt it'll be allowed to work like that during a real live age.

Your calcs are for 12 weeks. Their scaling is specifically for 5.
My personal opinion is that production per rank needs to be considerably toned down to make re-assign somewhat viable, along with increasing the number of starting scientists.

+1 for ShadowHearT in signature!

And while I tend to agree with hextor, this whole thing is a mistake.

We've been promised genesis for almost two years. Here we are running a 5 week test age on wol

I totally had missed that it was such a short age.

Yeah...nobody will really be reaching those numbers anywa

not sure I follow, with diminishing returns from the very first books put into a category the curve should make it rather impossible to reach such numbers in the first place as you would need an infinite number of books at some point to get further increase in bonuses. And even if it was possible to get that kind of bonuses the number of books needed would add a lot of network.

It is also not possible to have a reduction of more than 100% that would be rather silly then you are talking about a bonus and no longer an expense, it would be like trying to divide a number by 0, so I would considder such a thing a bug in the coding if it was possible.

Well, no matter how much they diminish, there is still some return. and if you focus over the course of the age, millions of books can indeed produce huge effects, even with the curves they are using.

The problem is that theoretically it IS possible to have such reduction, hence the thread.

Welcome back smerc

Can't go negative afaik.

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Originally Posted by Palem

Welcome back smerc

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Thanks, haha ^_^

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Originally Posted by Bishop

Can't go negative afaik.

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The code allows negative. Test server casters got refunded runes from ritual casts with a net gain.

I don't see how a test server has anything to do with the real server, if it has not happened on the real server it is not possible. I'd expect that they probably haven't hardcoded everything into a testserver so it can be buggy.

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Originally Posted by Tadpole

The code allows negative. Test server casters got refunded runes from ritual casts with a net gain.

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That was the test server, live was changed due to test server testing.

oh so it was not even done on the test server after this age started, I thought they atleast had current evidence to support the statement and not just what happened before the start of the age. I have not really done anything on a test server as I do not considder it a real server unless I can sign up without emailing support, so not really in the loop about when they are running it.

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Originally Posted by Bishop

Can't go negative afaik.

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But can you reach 100% reduction?

If so...maybe a cube root rather than square root for diminishing returns after a certain point (like the previous soft cap science amounts)?

I would think dmg reduction from ops is alot more powerful than increased dmg. A cow that pumps sci whole age will eventually be untouchable, save for duration spells/ops

If you ran max schools and libs from oop and 5 weeks forward you'll have 11M science. 9 weeks would mean 35M science.


At Y9, having 85% BE, 50%pop, 70ME and still having half your science to spend is obviously ridiculous. I dont even think the "gamebreaking" sciences comes close to that in OPness. Sure you can have -70% dmg but you could also have +400% magic science. Who is getting through that in the first place?

I do think you are on to something, that there should be a soft cap where square becomes cube

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Originally Posted by Minty

I would think dmg reduction from ops is alot more powerful than increased dmg. A cow that pumps sci whole age will eventually be untouchable, save for duration spells/ops

If you ran max schools and libs from oop and 5 weeks forward you'll have 11M science. 9 weeks would mean 35M science.


At Y9, having 85% BE, 50%pop, 70ME and still having half your science to spend is obviously ridiculous. I dont even think the "gamebreaking" sciences comes close to that in OPness. Sure you can have -70% dmg but you could also have +400% magic science. Who is getting through that in the first place?

I do think you are on to something, that there should be a soft cap where square becomes cube

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Well - others will have potentially similar WPA bonuses if they're also pumping WPA sci.

However - if two people equally pump offensive ops dmg (Cunning) and ops dmg reduction (Shielding), Shielding bonus wins vs the Cunning (with the ultimate win being at 100% Shielding, as even if the entire world of legends server combined all their science into one province and that province pumped Cunning, they'd still do 0 dmg to this one province with 100% Shielding).

But yeah, my point is more analytical and specific, where you're talking more about the game as a whole. I need to learn to how to think that way ^_^

I was thinking the same about the shielding sci - it should be removed because at high sci has too much impact. You don't even have to max it because there are wts and with even 50% you can be untouchable...

Same goes for extra dragon slaying power - why make dragons easier to kill? Either put min time the dragons stay(6/12/18/24h), change the alchemy from extra income to extra dragon funding or simply remove the dragons.

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Originally Posted by smercjd

Well - others will have potentially similar WPA bonuses if they're also pumping WPA sci.

However - if two people equally pump offensive ops dmg (Cunning) and ops dmg reduction (Shielding), Shielding bonus wins vs the Cunning (with the ultimate win being at 100% Shielding, as even if the entire world of legends server combined all their science into one province and that province pumped Cunning, they'd still do 0 dmg to this one province with 100% Shielding).

But yeah, my point is more analytical and specific, where you're talking more about the game as a whole. I need to learn to how to think that way ^_^

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alternatively instead of sheildign and cunning being multiplicative they could be additive and thus directly counter eachother.

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Originally Posted by smercjd

But can you reach 100% reduction?

If so...maybe a cube root rather than square root for diminishing returns after a certain point (like the previous soft cap science amounts)?

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Theoretically yes, practically no.

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Originally Posted by Bishop

Theoretically yes, practically no.

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But...there were two questions @_@

EDIT: I'm confused as to which one you're answering.

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Originally Posted by Persain

alternatively instead of sheildign and cunning being multiplicative they could be additive and thus directly counter eachother.

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That's a good point...maybe not just shield/cunn - but others can be more additive?

indeed, 5 week age and its a good point to bring up if we were to run into a long 14-15 week age or something. i mean 100% shielding would still leave you open to MS, Riots which is pretty damaging so your not "just safe" but its a good thing to think about, id say that category could alternatively not follow the same curve of other science if they dont wanna make it additive

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Originally Posted by Persain

indeed, 5 week age and its a good point to bring up if we were to run into a long 14-15 week age or something. i mean 100% shielding would still leave you open to MS, Riots which is pretty damaging so your not "just safe" but its a good thing to think about, id say that category could alternatively not follow the same curve of other science if they dont wanna make it additive

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Afail all sabotage ops(including riots) are coded in a way they get modified by +/- op dmg.

Initially they did! Then they split up duration and instants. It should no longer affect riots etc.

Has anyone broken science yet this age?

I'm curious to know how everyone's doing.

How many scientists do you have?
Total Books?
What's the highest number of scientists you have in one category? What's the category?
Do you like what you'd done? What would you do differently?

9 sci, Sci generation 75.5%

Alchemy 51,497 +13.4% Income
Tools 105,300 +13.7% Building Effectiveness
Housing 247,251 +12.6% Population Limits
Production 60,000 +62.2% Food & Rune Production
Bookkeeping 3,100 -2.8% Wage Reduction
Artisan 0 -0.0% Construction Time

Military - 1 scientists - 28,400 books available
Strategy 78,600 +9.5% Defensive Military Efficiency
Siege 0 +0.0% Battle Gains
Tactics 1,400 +1.3% Offensive Military Efficiency
Valor 0 -0.0% Military Train Time & +0.0% Dragon Slaying Strength
Heroism 21,000 +4.9% Draft Speed & -4.9% Draft Costs

Arcane Arts - 3 scientists - 142,600 books available
Crime 223,700 +107.8% Thievery Effectiveness
Channeling 140,000 +69.6% Magic Effectiveness
Shielding 5,000 -2.4% Damage from Enemy Thievery and Magic Instant Operations
Cunning 78,700 +9.5% Thievery and Magic Instant Operation Damage
Invocation 3,000 -2.3% Ritual Rune Cost

Totals to just under 1.2 Million. Current sci allotment is 5(2)-1-3 as a rogue. The (2) is 2 12,500 book novices.

I've been pretty happy with how I've done sci all age tbh, right now I could have more advanced arcane sci, because I moved a grad arcane into econ. Others in my KD are 3-1-5 instead, so I went 5-1-3 to be different.

Haven't run any labs, but have had rev up through war, mostly. Have some schools in now, they aren't as good as I'd hoped, I guess I regret moving one of my higher experience sci over to where my schools were, feels like a net loss.

10 scientists, Sci generation 66%

Alchemy 106,826 +19.3% Income

Tools 356,634 +25.3% Building Effectiveness

Housing 155,441 +10.0% Population Limits

Production 361,231 +152.7% Food & Rune Production

Bookkeeping 2,887 -2.7% Wage Reduction

Artisan 90,297 -10.2% Construction Time

Military - 2 scientists - 0 books available
Strategy 100,746 +10.7% Defensive Military Efficiency

Siege 12,442 +3.3% Battle Gains

Tactics 49,228 +7.5% Offensive Military Efficiency

Valor 158,717 -16.9% Military Train Time & +16.9% Dragon Slaying Strength

Heroism 49,403 +7.5% Draft Speed & -7.5% Draft Costs

Arcane Arts - 3 scientists - 0 books available
Crime 128,953 +54.6% Thievery Effectiveness

Channeling 132,760 +67.8% Magic Effectiveness

Shielding 65,836 -8.7% Damage from Enemy Thievery and Magic Instant Operations

Cunning 85 +0.3% Thievery and Magic Instant Operation Damage

Invocation 50,783 -9.5% Ritual Rune Cost

Total is a little over 1.8 mil books.

Science looks pretty strong this age and for attackers who are active enough, they can get good numbers by just hitting 2x daily for learns and keeping enough universities to protect their science. Considering how easy it is to get Tools science up this age, attackers can easily get Tools science to 20%+ and Production science to 130%+ and run sub 5% farms by beginning of second week only. People who do learns regularly, have more efficient use of building space this age as compared to those who aren't doing learns much.

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Originally Posted by Shrinky

10 scientists, Sci generation 66%

Alchemy 106,826 +19.3% Income

Tools 356,634 +25.3% Building Effectiveness

Housing 155,441 +10.0% Population Limits

Production 361,231 +152.7% Food & Rune Production

Bookkeeping 2,887 -2.7% Wage Reduction

Artisan 90,297 -10.2% Construction Time

Military - 2 scientists - 0 books available
Strategy 100,746 +10.7% Defensive Military Efficiency

Siege 12,442 +3.3% Battle Gains

Tactics 49,228 +7.5% Offensive Military Efficiency

Valor 158,717 -16.9% Military Train Time & +16.9% Dragon Slaying Strength

Heroism 49,403 +7.5% Draft Speed & -7.5% Draft Costs

Arcane Arts - 3 scientists - 0 books available
Crime 128,953 +54.6% Thievery Effectiveness

Channeling 132,760 +67.8% Magic Effectiveness

Shielding 65,836 -8.7% Damage from Enemy Thievery and Magic Instant Operations

Cunning 85 +0.3% Thievery and Magic Instant Operation Damage

Invocation 50,783 -9.5% Ritual Rune Cost

Total is a little over 1.8 mil books.

Science looks pretty strong this age and for attackers who are active enough, they can get good numbers by just hitting 2x daily for learns and keeping enough universities to protect their science. Considering how easy it is to get Tools science up this age, attackers can easily get Tools science to 20%+ and Production science to 130%+ and run sub 5% farms by beginning of second week only. People who do learns regularly, have more efficient use of building space this age as compared to those who aren't doing learns much.

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I think this is a really good point you made. The learns. I spoke with a person who already has 13 scientists but has not done learn attacks and has less books than 1.8million (much less).

Definitely hints that science probably needs some tweaks.

An Orc (so -10% effect) But here it is, a bit over 3m points.

Alchemy 150,000 +20.6% Income

Tools 356,900 +22.7% Building Effectiveness

Housing 450,000 +15.3% Population Limits

Production 230,000 +109.6% Food & Rune Production

Bookkeeping 6,342 -3.6% Wage Reduction

Artisan 170,000 -12.5% Construction Time

Strategy 150,000 +11.8% Defensive Military Efficiency

Siege 400,046 +16.8% Battle Gains

Tactics 345,800 +17.9% Offensive Military Efficiency

Valor 50,000 -8.5% Military Train Time & +8.5% Dragon Slaying Strength

Heroism 38,205 +5.9% Draft Speed & -5.9% Draft Costs

Crime 300,401 +75.0% Thievery Effectiveness

Channeling 33,693 +30.7% Magic Effectiveness

Shielding 300,000 -16.7% Damage from Enemy Thievery and Magic Instant Operations

Cunning 13,282 +3.5% Thievery and Magic Instant Operation Damage

Invocation 133,700 -13.9% Ritual Rune Cost

well it is less for those of us that has focused on warring, still books produced can easily be halved next age when we are back to 11-12 weeks length.

On labs only I've done almost as well as those that used schools in my kingdom at arround 1.6 million books or so and only really had arround 8-9 days mostly in warending where we could put in buildings and cast revelation reguarily. have gotten up to 2.5% increase a tic with revelaton on top of labs. Almost where I want to be for most categories which should not be the case this early in an age unless we are dumbing it down again so everyone get way over the previous soft cap.