TM balancing

This is about a little balancing between mystic, rogue and heretic which I think is needed.

Here - losses Blizz but takes GA.

Mystic - gains Blizz. Meteor Shower updated to kill all troops(including army away) and thieves.

Rogue - access to all thievery ops switched with access to all basic thievery ops + aw and prop. No access to GA.

More reasoning about the suggestion if you want read it.

Rogue is simply too powerful and needs some nerfs. The nerfes doesn't have to come from reducing TDs. Just like we nerfed mystic while ago with the introducing of the heretic.

Mystic at the moment seem more like an FB/ET bot than over time dmg dealer. I do agree that ms is powerful(especially combined with storms and chastity) but the rogues ability to destroy a mystic/here in 3 mins is ridiculous. MS update will make it more powerful against both attackers and rogues and having a/mystic will be more viable than it's now.

Heretic as a supposed a/t/m is kinda weird. No special thievery ops but 3 special and powerful magic spells and bonus instant thievery dmg. IMO here should be more of an instant dmg support a/t/m with ga, fg and nm but losing the bonus instant thievery dmg.

Overall I think this will make t/m power more coordinated - i dont know if that is the aim or the direction devs want to take.

Rogue is too powerful? That's news to me. I think it works fine, especially since it's no longer the surefire easiest way to get lots of TPA, given that TDs have a cap and there's less science overall. The issue is that heretic is too weak this age.

Anyway:
– Heretic losing Blizzard doesn't make much sense since it's already a weak personality. You're giving them GA, which is good, but then you're also taking away their instant thievery damage bonus, which means they get a lackluster GA – it's exactly the same as Rogue, but you have 33% less stealth to use it AND you need to balance that with stealing runes for your instant-damage wizarding ops (which means you can't just build lots of towers, since you need to have a lot of runes real quick for those spells to be really effective) and everything else Heretic does (NS, riots, what have you).
– Rogue gets all thievery ops… except one (two, actually – where is SWH?). If you think they're overpowered, you're not doing a lot to make them any better. A Rogue can still destroy a heretic or mystic really quick, since the ops wasted on doing GA will now go directly to AW and make up for the failed attempts (or, y'know, they can coördinate with a Heretic to burn down your watchtowers first)
– Mystic is ridiculous. Blizzard is a very good spell, arguably the best Heretic gets –at the very least, the least situational– and ON TOP OF THAT you're giving them an absolutely ridiculous MS that kills everything in sight? Get out.

Rogue is definitely a powerhouse and I did forget about SWH. The whole point of removing GA from it is to weaken the AW. You don't want to do AW through wts not just because the fail rate but because of the reduced dmg. Rogues hunt in pack - 1 rogue isn't impressive on it's own - 3-4 are monsters. The reason rogue is getting all thievery ops is to allow ppl to go around specific race penalties nothing else.

Mystics are the opposite - 1-2 are monsters because they would cover the entire KD with blizz/ms but you wouldnt need 3-4 really. I didn't say MS shouldn't be balanced once it's buffed - the min. dmg could be increased but the max dmg significantly decreased and/or decrease the duration to that of chastity. Still in the course of 2-3 days it would be really strong which I think it should be. Am I the only one who thinks blizzard has high duration and it should be slightly nerfed?

GA-ing a mystic/here as Here is much harder than as rogue(no bonus tds). Here keeping the bonus instant dmg is ok I didn't think it was going to make them weaker. The main strength of NM is coordination - you can't do it successfully at random time(like ns, prop, etc). You also need stockpiled mana which opens the heres to AW.

Rogues don't get any more TPA than a mystic. If you build correctly, they can't easily hurt you. With the rogue bonuses to TPA all gone, they have to either sink deeper into their TPA to compensate, or they just can't AW mystics as easily.

Of course, I have seen that a lot of mystics run low TPA.. so it's kind of on them.

Actually you can get more raw tpa and mod tpa than a mystic. Mystics need far more wpa, and can get that wpa, than rogues do which lowers the amount of tpa they can have. TDs give a lot mod tpa something people just tend to ignore. And rogues have invis which was buffed few ages ago. At the moment I'm a mystic in war and I have 26 mod tpa(not receiving any attention from the enemy entire war) but my rogues are over 40. That's without havoc.

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Originally Posted by Bo To

Rogue is definitely a powerhouse and I did forget about SWH. The whole point of removing GA from it is to weaken the AW. You don't want to do AW through wts not just because the fail rate but because of the reduced dmg. Rogues hunt in pack - 1 rogue isn't impressive on it's own - 3-4 are monsters.

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Oh, you mean as opposed to your current proposal, where one rogue isn't impressive on its own but 2-3 with an heretic is bad. Right.

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The reason rogue is getting all thievery ops is to allow ppl to go around specific race penalties nothing else.

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Undead has had thievery ops for a while now.

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Mystics are the opposite - 1-2 are monsters because they would cover the entire KD with blizz/ms but you wouldnt need 3-4 really.

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Yeah, because there are no other spells besides blizzard and MS. Fireball, wherefore art thou? (Also: MV, greed, sometimes drought/storms).

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I didn't say MS shouldn't be balanced once it's buffed - the min. dmg could be increased but the max dmg significantly decreased and/or decrease the duration to that of chastity.

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So you would still need 3-4 mystics to keep constant coverage. What does your proposal add, anyway?

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Still in the course of 2-3 days it would be really strong which I think it should be. Am I the only one who thinks blizzard has high duration and it should be slightly nerfed?

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Probably. 10% isn't that much BE… unless you're rogue (see below).

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GA-ing a mystic/here as Here is much harder than as rogue(no bonus tds). Here keeping the bonus instant dmg is ok I didn't think it was going to make them weaker. The main strength of NM is coordination - you can't do it successfully at random time(like ns, prop, etc). You also need stockpiled mana which opens the heres to AW.

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So essentially, you don't like GA because they burn your watchtowers and want to make it a much harder op indirectly. Is that it?

Oh, and AW does nothing on mana. Zero. You're thinking of sabotage wizards.

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Actually you can get more raw tpa and mod tpa than a mystic.

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A halfling/mystic (halfling/anything, really) can easily have as much TPA as anything else/rogue. TDs only add up to 75% TPA, and the last 25% needs plenty of TDs.

Dwarf/Sage can probably get more TPA in the long run, too. As can human/sage (not as many TDs but lots of science). Rogue no longer has automatically the highest TPA because the TD bonus only adds up so much.

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Mystics need far more wpa, and can get that wpa, than rogues do which lowers the amount of tpa they can have.

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The mystics in my KD have about 6 raw WPA, which is twice as much as the next one in line. Since everybody else –especially a rogue– has 2-3 wpa this late, that means dedicating about 10% of your population to magic, which is hardly a crippling penalty – Faery gets -10% from the get go.
If you play as a T/M, which means forgoing offense, you can easily get 5-6 TPA raw. Which, coincidentally, is what they have and what I, a sage, have.

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TDs give a lot mod tpa something people just tend to ignore. And rogues have invis which was buffed few ages ago.

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Up to 75%, and that assumes 100% BE or higher. Most people have less than 100% BE.
Also, invisibility got buffed in that it reduces losses now. I don't recall it getting you more than 20%? TPA.

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At the moment I'm a mystic in war and I have 26 mod tpa(not receiving any attention from the enemy entire war) but my rogues are over 40. That's without havoc.

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So essentially you're mad because the superthieves have 50% more TPA than you*? How is that not fair? You picked mystic. You have twice as much WPA and you have enough TPA to dismantle anyone in my KD. How boring would it be to play a province that can't be hit by magic, can't be hit by attacks (they haven't touched you, have they?) and also can't be opped? I'm sorry you can't build an unimpregnable fortress while raining death from the skies with impunity, but that's what this game is about: you got a short blanket and you gotta figure out what to cover with it.

*And that 50% comes from halfling bonus + invisibility.

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Originally Posted by Bo To

Actually you can get more raw tpa and mod tpa than a mystic. Mystics need far more wpa, and can get that wpa, than rogues do which lowers the amount of tpa they can have. TDs give a lot mod tpa something people just tend to ignore. And rogues have invis which was buffed few ages ago. At the moment I'm a mystic in war and I have 26 mod tpa(not receiving any attention from the enemy entire war) but my rogues are over 40. That's without havoc.

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The TD bonus just means they need fewer TDs to hit the max, anyone can match the rogues TPA bonus from TD if they dedicate enough land to it. Mystics get WPA easier than others, but rogues should be pumping WPA too.

I think you missed the point here. At the beginning of the topic I did say that currently mystics are fb/et bots and I'm suggesting to make them more like dmg over time type of a personality where here is instant dmg dealer.

I do play halfer/m and I do have relatively speaking high tpa but nowhere near a rogue. And I don't complain about that. The complain is rogues can destroy a mystic in 10 mins without any counter play(I have experienced it). Best case scenario you slower them. Here(even as a pure tm) can't break mystic as easily as a rogue. And there is a huge difference between having 4 rogues and 3 rogues and 1 here.

I do think you underestimate how much +100% TDs actually is. Who non rogue is going to aim for max TDs efficiency?

Bravo.

I agree with Bo To in that the first enemy t/m you smash is a rogue, if you know what’s good for you. I’ve never believed in the ET gambit. You run them down hard or it’ll bite you. People always forget stealth recovery or run out of runes and the rogues get their “3 minutes of infamy”.

No need for vast mechanical knowledge. I’ve seen more near unbreakables made totally breakable by rogues than by any other race/personality combination.

What? The personality that does best the one op that directly takes out military can destroy defenses? Unbelievable!

Mystic (and magic, in general) is more aimed towards taking out the economy. The fact that a province can survive a little longer without a functioning economy has to do with the way the entire game is coded, not with specific quirks of certain personalities, and in any case a good mystic can very quickly devastate an economy. And there are no watchtowers that'll save you from a good FB run.

Too bad there isn't kidnaping to recover the lost eco(if you have the tpa to do it consistently).

if you have the TPA to consistently do kidnappings, you have the TPA to do something less selfish, like actual ops. Stealth is a limited resource and rogues who blow it on kidnappings aren't well regarded in their KDs.