Age 79 Utopia Aftermath (the most disappointing age ever. )

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Originally Posted by Madchess

I can't agree to the suggestion that hitting someone while they are in a war would be better than to have a few days of ops and beeing forced to try and diplo a cf for meter points that you have given. Essentially while you might say weaker kingdoms want protection against stronger kingdoms to many a cf gives them nothing but fewer targets which is undesirable even if they run the risk of getting waved so they will not actively seek to cf unless they absolutely have to, such is the mindset in the ghetto, and many will likely still refuse it since they got gb protection acros the kingdom and further hits will give less gains.

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diplomacy as a whole hasnt changed just the speed at which its done between 2 reasonable kds. i would say currently if your pissed enough at someone to hold ops open for a long time and u have to be "persuaded" to cf you are either just purposely wasting 50 peoples time which is kinda stupid OR you should be pissed enough that u want to figure out how to exact a real revenge..im not saying it has to be into a war, just actually do something. Just stalling for a bit isn't healthy to a fun game and doesnt keep people motivated....and i've done it too so im not saying im w/out fault.

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Originally Posted by Madchess

Thus doing diplomacy is really the key here, seek to arrange for mutual agreed wars over just waving whoever is in range and it would be easier to get a war, people who want to wave every 12 hours for science, land or war are really to greedy for their own good which is why they are failing at getting everything they want.

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i get this to a point, and to the point is would u be happy if the game was litteraly anytime anything happens its war? Because effectively thats what your saying. your saying seek mutal wars or dont play the game. The people who wave are the people who keep the game beyond "afk arranged war afk." And this is really the reason i've been supportive of the changes. I think war should be encouraged and pushed into "War" when 2 kds actively fight but u shouldnt have to be in war to log in and have something to do, and i think the changes support that.

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Originally Posted by CCanes420

Defending the 'Force CF' mechanic is an absolute joke. It doesn't matter if you've been in engagements that dragged due to poor diplo/apathy/not caring about the other KD's time/etc. Any Uto player has dealt with that situation many times. It's part of the game that smaller KDs make larger KDs look elsewhere for easy waves (FSU KDs or not). Larger KDs will now wave with the smaller ones in fear of even retaliating with ops. Smaller KDs will whine whenever they are waved+monarch offline for whatever period of time extra. Now the devs give us the option to erect a magical 3 day long force field to prevent the 'bad guys' from getting us? Nice 'hardcore' strategy game. I'm taking the age off, but I won't say Uto is entirely dead.. just in dev limbo.

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its no differnt that right now, u can always wave kds that are smaller the only "risk" is retals and ops and how much. if u think a smaller kd should have unlimited ops for 7+ days like they do right now and can effectively hit back 1-1 w/out it being defined as a "war" i dont think i agree. If u want to fight back and hit 1 less than the enemy did take it to war...if not and your just upset u got hit what is a reasonable amount of time?

Changes make it so aggressor kd only have 3 hours they can hit u before u can cf that seems like MORE def for the smaller kd, and when was the last time a kd waved u and then stoped waving for 24+hours before demanding a cf? i'd guess almost never. Like i keep repeating these changes have little overal impact from the vast majority of the way this game is already played and even ops moving the meter wont impact most kds signficantly.

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Originally Posted by Persain

its no differnt that right now, u can always wave kds that are smaller the only "risk" is retals and ops and how much. if u think a smaller kd should have unlimited ops for 7+ days like they do right now and can effectively hit back 1-1 w/out it being defined as a "war" i dont think i agree. If u want to fight back and hit 1 less than the enemy did take it to war...if not and your just upset u got hit what is a reasonable amount of time?

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If you want to wave a smaller KD, then you pay the potential price of losing honor/troops/resources/time to their T/M and limited attacks. You decided to engage them. The smaller KD can decide that they won't let you walk away with everything for nothing. They might even effectively ruin 2 of your provinces for making the mistake of bottomfeeding. The small KDs now have much more to fear in retaliating with the ops meter and are instead given a forced CF to avoid playing the game vs their opponent for 72 hours. It's much different.

The idea that an opponent can simply disengage for 3 days without any fear is care bear gameplay and unrealistic. Very 'hardcore' stuff.

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Originally Posted by CCanes420

If you want to wave a smaller KD, then you pay the potential price of losing honor/troops/resources/time to their T/M and limited attacks. You decided to engage them. The smaller KD can decide that they won't let you walk away with everything for nothing. They might even effectively ruin 2 of your provinces for making the mistake of bottomfeeding. The small KDs now have much more to fear in retaliating with the ops meter and are instead given a forced CF to avoid playing the game vs their opponent for 72 hours. It's much different.

The idea that an opponent can simply disengage for 3 days without any fear is care bear gameplay and unrealistic. Very 'hardcore' stuff.

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And if they decide that they should be willing to take the risk that it might backfire on them. Actions should have consequenses, not just one way but both ways.

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Originally Posted by Korp

And if they decide that they should be willing to take the risk that it might backfire on them. Actions should have consequenses, not just one way but both ways.

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I agree, but hasn't that always been present? Only the recent introduction of the KD-wide GBP did this slant in favor of smaller farming KDs. I think the ops meter as a concept merits itself, but the % each op moves the meter will take a fair amount of balancing tweaks over time (imo).

Even without the ops meter, a larger KD could simply keep farming their opponent through the barrage of ops coverage. It was the choice you made when you engaged a reasonable opponent (whether they were smaller or within war range, but simply didn't see a win condition vs your KD without ops..or just wanted to make you feel pain as well aka: take your honor).

The Forced CF mechanic is the disgusting mechanic to me. The ops meter just needs to be fleshed out over time (imo reduction across the board on how much they move, but that's debatable).

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Originally Posted by Pestilence

Sure, just stick with that thought as we lose 100 players per age

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That time of the month?

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Originally Posted by octobrev

Would you feel better if they coded it softly? Mink could strap some cotton balls to his finger tips!

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hahahahahaa. This is great octo.

@Persain you are misunderstanding my point, what I'm saying is do not expect to get wars from waving for land or science, people who think they can wave and get a war out of this are greedy because they want both a war and the resurces they have taken, such situations rarely gets to war as it is not a situation where the defending kd is nessesarily in agreement or even have an advantage.

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Originally Posted by Elit

I can confirm here is life after Utopia. Don't get so depressed!

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Thanks for taking time to share some encouragement. :)

Edit 1: I just wanted to add, although, its sad to see the death of Utopia take place in such a manner, I'm not really depressed. I didn't get to achieve some of my goals in Utopia; and now I never will be able too. Sure it is disappointing, but it is what it is -- I can just move on now; because, even if I achieved those goals, in this new game masquerading as Utopia, it wouldn't mean anything to me.

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Originally Posted by Madchess

@Persain you are misunderstanding my point, what I'm saying is do not expect to get wars from waving for land or science, people who think they can wave and get a war out of this are greedy because they want both a war and the resurces they have taken, such situations rarely gets to war as it is not a situation where the defending kd is nessesarily in agreement or even have an advantage.

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no i know your point im saying a kd who waves out is inherently taking a risk in that they have some low incoming or dont have the protection in war provides. To open yourself up like that AND then be punished with mechanics designed to stop bullying when a kd decides to fight back against it is ridiculous so ridiculous that

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Originally Posted by khronosschoty

I just wanted to add, although, its sad to see the death of Utopia take place in such a manner, I'm not really depressed. I didn't get to achieve some of my goals in Utopia; and now I never will be able too. Sure it is disappointing, but it is what it is -- I can just move on now; because, even if I achieved those goals, in this new game masquerading as Utopia, it wouldn't mean anything to me.

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stuff like this is laughable. Litteraly the only thing changing is u cant forever op someone and the game shifts to actual fights deserve a war stance. While the mechanics of this game often change to say this game isnt utopia anymore when less changes than any of the big changes in the past is just wrong. You wanna know things that have had more of an inpact, science changes every time, honor change from fame, boats, war win bonus, no fake wars new code with tick, removal of gains from pool when hitting....the list could go on and on.

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Originally Posted by Persain

no i know your point im saying a kd who waves out is inherently taking a risk in that they have some low incoming or dont have the protection in war provides. To open yourself up like that AND then be punished with mechanics designed to stop bullying when a kd decides to fight back against it is ridiculous so ridiculous that



stuff like this is laughable. Litteraly the only thing changing is u cant forever op someone and the game shifts to actual fights deserve a war stance. While the mechanics of this game often change to say this game isnt utopia anymore when less changes than any of the big changes in the past is just wrong. You wanna know things that have had more of an inpact, science changes every time, honor change from fame, boats, war win bonus, no fake wars new code with tick, removal of gains from pool when hitting....the list could go on and on.

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Your attempt to rationalize away, to down play the changes, to define these changes in the manner you are trying to -- is cute; but inaccurate. These changes make almost all situations black n white -- war or don't war. These changes remove diversity of tactics from the game -- they make even a simple action like stealing gold move the meter.

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Originally Posted by khronosschoty

Your attempt at rationalize away, to down play the changes, to define these changes in the manner you are trying to -- is cute; but inaccurate. These games make almost all situations black n white -- war or don't war. These changes remove diversity of tactics from the game -- they make even a simple action like stealing gold move the meter.

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no it makes the game take hostile actions towards war. if u dont want to war there are still plenty of options to do stuff and plenty of ways to still grief people. Maybe a 15 point meter is a bit low with ops moving the meter but thats a fine balance that can be tweaked. Like i repeat how is this a bigger effect on the game than the introduction of the war win bonus and the official stance of the game that u arent to use "war" to pump/dodge..people might not of been a huge fan of that but there is a lot more "this isnt the same game" now than back then. I mean if u look at how the playerbase uses war these changes are right in line with that, the fact u dont like that any hostile action u do helps lead you to war doesnt mean its a real change from the way the game has worked (see things like "retal war" which now just go into war v happens outside of war)

edit...and i point again to the fact that the "remove tactics" your crying about is/was abusing mechanics in ways they weren't ment to. GBP was never meant to give one side an advantage in a fight, it was meant to stop bullying---cf's now do that. I'd point to this the same way of other changes like when nightmares were introduced and perminately removed military. NM war designed in a attackers have overpop, theifs ns, magic should be able to remove military oops not how we wanted so we'll make it temporary. "omg game has changed" these changes arent even on par with that.

I'm not a fan of labeling all defensive actions, that are done with the intention to ward people off, and not war, "griefing" -- the fact you basically just did, is indicative of your bias. What I wrote is reality -- that these combined changes make it war or don't war -- black n white. Its cute how you just characterized what I'm pointing out as "crying" -- since there is no tears running down my face, I can only surmise the tears must be coming from you. These new changes, namely: the reduction to the meter, the ability to declare war simple because your opponent is hostile, the new ceasefire mechanics -- these don't help stop bullying; they just help the aggressor kingdom get easy freebies. These changes completely destroy utopia. Instead of fighting to defend your self, you just press the CF button; or farm people outright.

Edit 1: Seriously, I have no idea why your even trying to argue with me about this. Your free to believe what you want -- I'm not trying to change your mind. I didn't phrase anything in here as a question; I phrased them as statements. You've declared your disagreement. I don't see any more reason, at this moment, to waste anymore of your time going in circles; perhaps later on, if this thread keeps growing, and I respond to something else you may.

No, these changes wont destroy Utopia, people will adapt and get through things. People have been saying Utopia is dead for 10+ years already and its behold its still around.

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Originally Posted by Korp

No, these changes wont destroy Utopia, people will adapt and get through things. People have been saying Utopia is dead for 10+ years already and its behold its still around.

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These changes destroy Utopia for me -- apparently they don't for you -- I've already stated, this isn't even Utopia anymore.

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Originally Posted by khronosschoty

I'm not a fan of labeling all defensive actions, that are done with the intention to ward people off, and not war, "griefing" -- the fact you basically just did, is indicative of your bias0

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one last thing i'll add... i didnt mean to say all defnsive actions are griefing only that if u want to grief someone which was super easy to do pre these changes there was no real mechanic to stop it in the past. Now that griefing has to be well planed or its going to lead to war. Similarly i personally think threres still plenty of defensive actions u can take like u can still MS the enemy for waving u, u just open up their ability to op back and if u want to spend days and days playing defensively its a mechanics abuse to do that outside of war.

My only point was i dont see how u can call it a completely differnt game when the mechanics barely change compared to mechanical changes in the past.